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Please help this idiot start the 302 jim.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by iwanaflattie, Oct 25, 2011.

  1. 63FalconFutura
    Joined: Feb 18, 2010
    Posts: 308

    63FalconFutura
    Member
    from Socal

    we have a 302 sitting on just a frame in what was my autoshop class..... its now the "Dance studio" and is sitting outside in the rain rotting
     
  2. Will try that too.thanks.
    Did you leave the spark plug wires on the cap and then turned it 180????:confused:
    Go and get it.never hurts to ask.make a school donation and thank "dancing with the 'tards'' for not having shop class anymore.
     
  3. George/Maine
    Joined: Jan 6, 2011
    Posts: 949

    George/Maine
    Member

    If the mark on flywheel is at TDC,take off the valve cover and the first cylinder is #1 both valves should be closed.Now line the rotor with #1 spark plug.This is the best way to do it.
     
  4. I will take the valve cover off today and check.Thanks again
     
  5. So I put the flywheel at the mark on the fw housing,I make sure the piston is all the way to the top,then I take the distributor cap off and the rotor points to the assumed "1" position.
    I take the valve cover off and I see tat all the valves are in the same position.is this correct
     
  6. goose-em
    Joined: Aug 23, 2008
    Posts: 349

    goose-em
    Member
    from Louisiana

    Couple of things. I have a 38 Pontiac flatty, I know not the 302 but they do have some similarities so I am forging on.

    According to the engine manual from 38 my distributor turns counter clockwise. Of course it is on the drivers side and yours is on the passenger side so yours should turn clockwise.

    I did the old, place thumb over the hole wait for it to blow, point the rotor at the #1 cylinder trick.

    It would not start, it did pop a couple of times.

    I drank a couple of beers, okay 6 beers, scratched my head, drank some more beer, scratched my ass, drank another beer, gave up for the night, went in the house drank some more read the manual again and then it hit me.

    Back to the garage for another go, now fully inebriated.

    The manual was wrong or at least that was my theory. So I took all the wires off and made the #1 wire go where the #6 wire had been and so on, i.e. the distributor was 180 out of phase.

    Drunkenly pumped some gas and hit the starter, started right off.

    Like I said in a previous post, if it pops, backfires etc. then your distributor is 180 out like everyone else has been saying.
     
  7. George/Maine
    Joined: Jan 6, 2011
    Posts: 949

    George/Maine
    Member

    Your valves can,t be all the same.Under power try and watch the valves they may need some oil if hdydruulic to pump up.If they are moving watch #1 you want both closed for TDC.
    If they don,t move is the camshft missing or no push rods.
    I doubt that.
     
  8. 56oldssuper88
    Joined: Mar 3, 2010
    Posts: 213

    56oldssuper88
    Member

    I agree my olds was 180 out, and made the sucking sound he is describing. It's at tdc right before the intake stroke not on the end of the compression stroke, that is why you hear the air being sucked in. Also the rotor on distributor may not necessarily point to the right position, it depends on if it was installed with the rotor in that position. it wont matter just make sure you're find tdc on the compression stroke, and then mark the cap to find which terminal to run your #1 plug wire from. Then follow your firing order clockwise or counter clockwise depending on which way the rotor turns. Then adjust ignition timing as needed later on.
     
  9. well no luck.
    I did turn my dist 180 but noyhing.
    I took the valvecover off and turned the engine,all the valves move freely but..ya wana hear something moronic????
    I couldnt tell when they were open or closed,by this time the starter started smoking,so i gave up for the day.
     
  10. JC Sparks
    Joined: Dec 8, 2008
    Posts: 707

    JC Sparks
    Member
    from Ohio

    Don't turn it with the starter to set top dead center, use a socket to turn the crank if it has a bolt in it or turn it with the flywheel. JC
     
  11. Deucedreamer
    Joined: Jan 11, 2010
    Posts: 518

    Deucedreamer
    Member
    from BC Canada

    They will be open when the valves are down, and closed when they are up. You have adjustable rocker arms, so if they are not adjusted properly or at all, the valves won't move enough, or at all. Without looking at a spec sheet in a manual, I can't advise on the valve lashing. There is a cold setting and a hot setting. The hot setting is usually made when the engine is running(and is a pain in the ass cause it gets oil everywhere), but you aren't at that step yet. I know you said in an earlier post that you flipped the distributor 180, but you also need to have the firing order correct which I think someone in an earlier post corrected you on.

    So if I were you, I would start all over again. I would put the #1 cylinder at TDC, then install the distributor. Once that's done, install the dist cap and put the #1 wire where the the rotor is pointing, which should be correct IF you've installed the distributor correctly. Then install the rest of the plug wires in their respective firing order. After that, as long as you've got fuel and the valves are adjusted properly, it should start.
     
  12. Maybe I missed it, but is this a known running engine? Has some compression? Is it possible the cylinders are washed down with gas? If you have been dumping raw gas down the carb all this time, it's possible....
     
  13. George/Maine
    Joined: Jan 6, 2011
    Posts: 949

    George/Maine
    Member

    For some reason I don,t think you get it.
    When the piston is up top they should be a timing mark.
    That is TDC, It takes two full turns to go thru all cylinders.
    So at a starting postion TDC when the piston goes down it opens,
    the intake valve," think its 2nd valve" till it gets to bottom 1/2 turn on crankshaft.
    Now it start up filled with gas in cylinder till it gets up top
    POW
    That when you want #1 to fire.TDC one full turn.
    Now goes down to bottom ,Now the time the exhaust valve opens till top.
    You have completed two full turns.
    If the engine is out of junk yard take the spark plugs out ,
    and oil cylinders and make sure there is oil in engine,and oil valves.
    It should turn over easy turn by hand with scoket and bar.
    Now the dist where it bolts down, put in middle so you have movemnet both ways.
    Now mark dist out side and put cap on follow to closest hole That now be #1
    Then order of fire.
     
  14. That might be a good possibility to be washed down with gas.
    The engine was supposedly rebuilt,It has tags tat says so.
    under the valve cover everything is clean and oily.but not sure.

    the engine turned free the very first time I went to look at it.
    Then I removed all the spark plugs and put a little mistery oil and waited 2 weeks then I turned it by hand to make sure it was free.
    I did exactly what you said with the two full turns to find TDC.
    I will have to make a little video.
    Thanks for being so patient.
     
  15. New points,
    new condenser,
    got coil checked,there was no continuity so is good.
    new spark plugs
    new sparkplug wires
    cleaned the dirt and grease off the distributor
    checked and rechecked my TDC,
    set my firing order
    sprayed some starting fluid and
    Finally some sign of life!
    It tried to start!!!
    At first the starter did its thing,it spun the flywheel pretty fast but then it started to slow down so I couldnt crank it anymore.
    The groung cable gets hot and the starter make a noise like its getting stuck.
    So maybe I need to rebuild it and try again.
     
  16. OldBuzzard
    Joined: Mar 8, 2008
    Posts: 878

    OldBuzzard

    You should have continuity between the + and - terminals. Those are the ends of the primary winding.
     
  17. Dam thats what the guy at the auto store parts told me.
     
  18. OldBuzzard
    Joined: Mar 8, 2008
    Posts: 878

    OldBuzzard

    Did somebody tell you there should not be??

    "got coil checked,there was no continuity so is good."
     
  19. the guy at the parts store checked it and tats what he said lol.
     
  20. This procedure will allow you to test the coil. Using an ohmmeter, check the resistance between the + & - terminals of the coil. Do this with all of the wires to the coil disconnected. You should see 0.5 to 3 ohm of resistance, depending on the coil. Then check the resistance between either side terminal and the center high tension terminal. The reading should be 5,000 to 15,000 ohms. Any significant deviation from these numbers would indicate that the coil is defective.
     
  21. OldBuzzard
    Joined: Mar 8, 2008
    Posts: 878

    OldBuzzard

    There is a primary winding in a coil. You feed 12v to the + end of it. It is wound around the secondary (high voltage) winding. The other end of the primary goes to the - post. From there it goes to the points which are grounded on the stationary side. The points interrupt the current flow to ground causing pulses. These pulses cause fields to be generated which induce high voltage in the secondary. = Sparks.

    I just went out and checked the coil on my 270. It is a NAPA coil, 12v, designed to work without an external resistor. It has continuity between + and - terminals.
     
  22. OldBuzzard
    Joined: Mar 8, 2008
    Posts: 878

    OldBuzzard

    With all due respect, he may not get a reading between the tower and + or- terminal. There is no reading between those on my new coil and it runs. The HV winding may be grounded to the coil case and not the low side of the primary.
     
  23. 33-Chevy
    Joined: Nov 30, 2007
    Posts: 267

    33-Chevy
    Member

    I once worked on a Chevrolet that had maddening no start symptoms and discovered that the wire from the condensor (on the condensor) had a bare spot on the insulation and would sometimes short out. You couldn't see it until you took the condensor out. I didn't see anybody mention that the easeist way to tell if the number one cylinder is top dead center and not 180 degrees out is to grab the rocker arms one at a time and see if they move. If they don't move, at least one of them, it means the camshaft is pushing it open and it isn't in the number one firing position.
     
  24. medicinal_marinara
    Joined: Nov 24, 2009
    Posts: 139

    medicinal_marinara
    Member
    from Oregon

    It is a pretty common problem with the Chevy 235 distributor (the GMC civilian dist is almost the same) for the post that carries the wire between the points and distributor between the outside and inside of the distributor to short out to the metal case, which grounds out the points. Take off the cap, connect the coil to the battery, and manually open the points using an insulated screwdriver. You should be able to see them arc. If they don't, fix it.

    It is also common for points to glaze up and not conduct electricity after sitting for a while. Hit them with a points file to make sure they are clean.

    I've got a 302 on a pallet in my garage. It runs. I got it out of a rolled over '55 GMC 450 dump truck. They are getting hard to find around here... Larrowe keeps snapping them up and charging people a lot for them.
     
  25. medicinal_marinara
    Joined: Nov 24, 2009
    Posts: 139

    medicinal_marinara
    Member
    from Oregon

    It is also possible to foul out the spark plugs after extended periods of not being able to get the engine started. Try some fresh plugs, they are cheap for this engine.
     
  26. 33-Chevy
    Joined: Nov 30, 2007
    Posts: 267

    33-Chevy
    Member

    Oh how evil of him.
     
  27. George/Maine
    Joined: Jan 6, 2011
    Posts: 949

    George/Maine
    Member

    I would buy a new coil 12 volt,and resister ,
    Napa coil IC12,or IC13,with a ICR 13 1.82 ohm.I.m running a ICR 13 with no problem.If that engine were running long time ago may have a 6 volt coil.The final test is seeing a good spark.
     
  28. Three Widow's Garage
    Joined: Jan 18, 2010
    Posts: 208

    Three Widow's Garage
    Member

    An engine needs three things to run - compression, fuel and properly timed ignition.
    With an unknown engine I always like to pull the plugs and do a compression test before anything else, I know the readings are more accurate on a warmed up block
    but the cold readings will tell you if something major is wrong - stuck valve, blown gasket, burned piston ect. If your timing marks / tabs are in question now is a good time to use a piston stop and establish a known & accurate TDC. Also at this time pull the distributor cap, make sure the rotor is turning with the engine and make note of which direction it turns. Install new or a known good set of plugs. Crank engine over by hand to find compresion stroke for # 1 cylinder either using the finger in the plug hole or observing the rocker arms. Now rotate the crank to line up your timing marks for your base timing, I usually just shoot for around 7 - 10 degrees BTDC. If your distributor is installed check which post the rotor is pointed at that should be your # 1 cylinder, if the cap has a diffrent post marked with #1 then the distributor can be pulled a reinstalled with the rotor pointed towards the right post or leave it alone and set up the firing order starting with the post the rotor is pointed at. Not sure on the 302 gmc but most all straight 6s use 153624. make sure the firing order is going the same direction that the distributor rotates. If you need to reinstall the distributor
    you usually will have to crank the engine to get the oil pump shaft to engage so you will need to reset your timing marks on your compression stroke again. Now Check your points worn, pitted, frayed wires,ect, set gap to around .018 shoud get you running.Now you need to set your base timing. loosen the distributor hold down and with power to the coil slowly turn the distibutor untill you get a spark in the coil wire, you will have to turn it back and fourth a few times to get it right, you want to stop right at the spot you get a spark. Tighten clamp, make sure you have your rotor in there button up the cap. If your not sure on the carb/ fuel pump pour a little gas down the carb, it should a least fire.
     
  29. I tried to start it again and its firing,just need to rebuild the starter
     
  30. carlos
    Joined: May 2, 2005
    Posts: 1,382

    carlos
    Member
    from ohio

    Try adjusting the timing around a bit before you do that if you have the timing way off it will make it hard to turn over
     

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