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Planning ahead for ethanol

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by turdytoo, Oct 18, 2010.

  1. The other lil problem with it is if it say "my contain up to 10%" its BS ....An independent testing agency tested 20 different gas stations in are town and found out that the lowest 10% was 17% the highest 10% was 37%....and the guy said that is very common.
     
  2. Tman
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 34,066

    Tman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    That should be impossible unless they are cheating which is hard to do. The pipeline blends it automatically or the drivers hand blend depending on area. We do both out here. Since the price of alky went up none of our customers use more than the stated blend since it cuts into an already slim profit.
     
  3. 1950ChevySuburban
    Joined: Dec 20, 2006
    Posts: 6,188

    1950ChevySuburban
    Member Emeritus
    from Tucson AZ

    I have stability issues with small engines, other than that, all my chit is fuel injected!
     
  4. djust
    Joined: May 31, 2006
    Posts: 1,230

    djust
    Member
    from Oklahoma

    Had a fuel delivery guy tell me the blend is unstable.
    After it sits for awhile it settles out or something like that.
    One day 10% next week maybe 13% maybe 8% out of the same batch.
    Crap shoot on the blend that is coming through the nozzle.
     
  5. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 18,108

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    It is here, and it is not going away. The time to deal with it is now.

    It is pretty hard to find rubber fuel lines for sale now that do not tolerate alcohol. If you have replaced your lines recently, you should be ok.

    I think those who are experiencing problems with rubber parts and alcohol just have old, dried out and rotting rubber parts to begin with. Please stop blaming the fuel.

    After that it is just tuning, and we as hot rodders should already be used to that. Jets, metering rods, spark curves, and compression, etc. are all well known territory.

    What are we, shrinking violets? Get your wrenches and let's get on it!

    Also, if any of you find a distributor machine, buy it. They are getting scarce and, we're going to need them again.

    Please keep, and/or remove the politics from this thread. This is a real car issue that affects us. The why of it is for another forum.
     
  6. Tman
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 34,066

    Tman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    No, it doesn't happen that way, if you tell me how to make 13% out of 10% we will be rich!
     
  7. stude_trucks
    Joined: Sep 13, 2007
    Posts: 4,755

    stude_trucks
    Member

    Are we talking about alcohol or plutonium?
     
  8. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 18,108

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Even better, if we can get 13% out of 8%. Then we'll both be rich.
     
  9. Truckedup
    Joined: Jul 25, 2006
    Posts: 4,072

    Truckedup
    Member

    If an engine could run on raw shit we would all have it made. I notice the more paronia a person has for the gov't,the shittier their engines run on Ethanol..........
     
  10. For those concerned about how much, if any, ethanol is in the gas you purchase, it's easy to test for.

    You just put some water in a small container and mark the level, then add the gasoline in question (A mix of about 25% water and 75% gasoline is good) put a lid on it and shake. If the water level goes up after shaking it means some of the alcohol present in the gasoline mixed with the water.

    If the water level stays the same after shaking, no alcohol.

    Or you can buy this handy dandy alcohol test kit for about 18 bucks that will give you a general indication of how much alcohol is present...

    http://www.shopeaa.com/homebuilders_kits.aspx
     
  11. You are not required to makr ethanol in MO. But just a word of advice if you are buying anything less than high test from one of rhe major manufacturers you are buying ethanol.

    @ 10% which is pretty much where we are today you dobn't have to do much to run it. Never the less if you want to continue to run as percentages go up you will need to run steel hard lines alcohol compatible soft lines. An alcohol compatibe pump etc.

    All that can be purchased, anything that I build or upgrade is built with alcohol in mind. But that in part is because I am always thinking of being able to switch to methanol at a moments notice, like if I am loosing at the HAMB Drags. :D
     
  12. hotrodjohnny77
    Joined: Jun 1, 2008
    Posts: 264

    hotrodjohnny77
    Member

    Please feel free to criticize me or pm me for info after this post. I am a master certified marine technician and at this point I am rebuilding 15-25 carburators a week on average. Even on the fuel injected end, we flush a good 2-3 systems a week which includes rebuilding the vapor seperator (contains high pressure pump and regulator) at a cost into the high hundreds of dollars. A lot of the marine engine builders have put a ton of $$ into research into ethonal as the environment we run in is harder than that of a car. The truth with this fuel is that it is stale by the time it hits the pump. The best we can do is preserve the quality of the fuel and be proactive in fighting long term damage. The being said, for rubber fuel lines a company called sheilds makes hose in 5/16 and 3/8 diameter that is the best I have ever seen call Silverado 3000. It is impervious to alcohol and does not leach into the environment with a twenty year life span.

    As far as chemicals to treat it, look up a company called PRI-G. This stuff is hardcore, not garbage like stabil. Just a quick fyi, stabil is ethonal based. PRI-G came from the military and was used for over 20 years before the public had access to it. It is a true stabilizer as it changes the structure of the fuel. I mix it as a cocktail with another chemical called Startron. It is an active enzyme fuel treatment that slows down phase seperation and retains octane value.

    I HAVE NEVER HAD A CUSTOMER WITH A FUEL RELATED PROBLEM AFTER RUNNING THIS COKTAIL! IF YOU HAVE A CARBURATOR AND THE CAR WILL NOT BE STARTED FOR TWO WEEKS OR MORE, DRAIN THE CARB. NO FUEL TO DrY OUT OR COAT THE INSIDE WITH RESIDUE.

    The cocktail is 1oz Pri-g to 16 gallons of fuel and 2 oz of Startron to 16 gallons of fuel. Another note to the wise is if you live in an area that still has non ethonal fuel, do not mix it with ethonal, evacuate the system 100% or you will regret it later, dont believe me, put the two in a glass jar and see what happens overnight.

    Just my $1.50 worth... Now fire away
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2010
  13. wrenchin hobo
    Joined: Mar 2, 2010
    Posts: 43

    wrenchin hobo
    Member
    from Houston,TX

    I'm with porknbeaner on this one. If you're building a car there is no since in building something that will be damaged by ethanol. It's not much more expensive and most of us want to drive what we build....so not much thought to be had there. I'm kinda looking forward to having a more readily available 100 + octane fuel at the pumps. It gives me visions of a daily driven small block with 15 psi of huffer on it. We can more easily kill polar bears, fuel mileage, and tires.

    That being said, I don't like the g'ment telling me what I have to do either.
     
  14. Ned Ludd
    Joined: May 15, 2009
    Posts: 4,225

    Ned Ludd
    Member

    The petroleum component goes bad, yes. You can store pure ethanol indefinitely, nothing will happen to it. Ever heard of stale vodka?

    I don't like the government telling me what I have to do, either. But I don't like Big Business telling me what I have to do any more. I especially don't like the government telling me that I have to buy the stuff I want from Big Business. That's why I love the homebrew idea.
     
  15. Diavolo
    Joined: Apr 1, 2009
    Posts: 815

    Diavolo
    Member

    Since this is called technical planning ahead, here's my $.02.

    Go here and get their kit to convert to E85 http://www.e85carbs.com/ or google procomp adjustable metering blocks. The biggest issue with high alcohol content I am aware of is the need for more fuel delivery because alcohol has a lower combustible energy. I think it's about half of what gasoline is, but I don't have the memory I used to have. Basically it means you need 2x the volume of pure alcohol to equal the combustion energy of gasoline. If it eventually gets standardized, you can accomplish this by changing to much larger jets and calling it done. This assumes you have already dealt with the reactivity of fuel on rubber parts and gaskets.

    I seem to remember stories of Henry Ford intending on his cars running on grain alcohol so the farmers could make their own fuel because gasoline supply and delivery wasn't in place at the time. Just saying.

    EDIT: I forgot to mention that alcohol is hygroscopic. This is why my bourbon tastes like crap if it sits out for a few hours. It naturally absorbs water from the atmosphere, lowering it's proof. If it sits long enough it won't be very flammable. This is probably the main reason we won't be seeing E100 in any real numbers for a long time. You would have to use your fuel on an almost daily basis for it to be a good source of power for your engine. Except for municipal vehicles and delivery trucks, I don't see that being a very good thing.
     
  16. Ned Ludd
    Joined: May 15, 2009
    Posts: 4,225

    Ned Ludd
    Member

    From the abovementioned book: "When 200-proof alcohol is exposed to the air, it will not be 200-proof for long. Within a few hours of open exposure in humid air, enough moisture is absorbed to bring the alcohol back down to 194 proof. Once alcohol reaches that proof, absorption slows dramatically." That is, I suppose, why most commercially-available denatured spirit is 192 proof, or E96. The author goes on to list various ways to dry alcohol and keep it dry, or dry enough.

    In denatured spirit most of the remaining 4% is water, and it seems that that much water has actual combustion benefits in an engine, compared to 200-proof E100.
     
  17. B Blue
    Joined: Jul 30, 2009
    Posts: 281

    B Blue
    Member

    Your not going to ever see much more than E85. Two reasons. The stuff has to be made undrinkable and 15% gasoline is probably enough to keep anyone from trying that. Also, ethanol does not like to fire off under cold conditions. I don't mean a cold engine, but temps approaching zero. 15% gasoline solves that problem in most of the lower 49 states.

    E10 has been available in Indiana since forever, starting at about the time lead was removed from gasoline. There was a lot of concern at first, but most people use it with no problems. I ran about a million gallons of the stuff through a 78 Fiesta. There does seem to be a reduction in mileage, but for our cars, it is in the "hard to reliably measure" range.

    Bill
     
  18. Jmountainjr
    Joined: Dec 29, 2006
    Posts: 1,354

    Jmountainjr
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Wont work well with Holly 94's
    Can you explain in more detail? The 94's ran "hot" fuel back in the day. Is it the power valve diaphram you are worried about? You can get correct acc pumps etc.
     
  19. Ob1
    Joined: Jan 21, 2010
    Posts: 411

    Ob1
    Member

    So far, the only problem I've had with E10 is an increased flow rate through the carburetor, 11% more fuel flow than straight gas. I know that's a bit more mpg loss than most, but my 292 I-6 is pushing a 5 ton truck and working hard pretty much all the time.

    Net effect is about 65 miles less distance traveled after burning through both tanks, that is substantial!
     
  20. 31 5w
    Joined: Aug 6, 2010
    Posts: 119

    31 5w
    Member

    hotrodjohnny77, I have mixed 10% or less (Fl. fuel) w/ 110 octane racing fuel w/o problems. My race car buds put me on to this a few yrs. ago, why no problems? Not being wise a just want to know if I need to stop this. Thanks.
     
  21. turdytoo
    Joined: May 14, 2007
    Posts: 1,560

    turdytoo
    Member

    So.... Back to the original question, What should we be doing to prepare for ethanol? 1. Make sure rubber hoses are ethanol compatible.
    2. Make sure carbs & fuel pumps have ethol compatible components.
    3. Are aluminum pieces (fuel lines & fittings) okay for ethanol ?
    4. Should we plan on using additives ?
    5. Can we trust manufacturer/sales persons word on compatibility ?
     
  22. 1950ChevySuburban
    Joined: Dec 20, 2006
    Posts: 6,188

    1950ChevySuburban
    Member Emeritus
    from Tucson AZ

    I work at the U of A. We have the largest e-85 fleet west of the Mississippi. Our tank settles out if left unstirred, thats where your percentages change. Lots of problems, even with e-85 cars bought new. Lean codes, dealer reflashes, stalling.
    E-85 is ruining our fuel pressure test gauges, lines and seals.

    If you buy e-85, make sure the station has a heavy product turnover, or it'll be stale.
     
  23. djust
    Joined: May 31, 2006
    Posts: 1,230

    djust
    Member
    from Oklahoma

    That is exactly what I was told.
    As it sits the blend settles out so you don't always get the same % at the nozzle.
     
  24. Tman
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 34,066

    Tman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Might be the case with a fleet but we haul to 3 dozen stations and I can tell you that turnover is so fast at all but the smallest mom and pop that it is not an issue. That and the fact that many stations use blender pumps so the Ethanol is stored by its self and only mixed at the pump when you are filling.
     
  25. Von Rigg Fink
    Joined: Jun 11, 2007
    Posts: 13,426

    Von Rigg Fink
    Member
    from Garage


    perfect:D..Boycott the shit..let it go stale.
    more than one way to fuck these bastards

    hahaha thousands upon thousands of fucked fuel sitting and getting stale by the day in their tanks..not ours..maybe than they will listen to how stupid an idea this is, and that we are sick of having it forced down our throats..

    the only problem i see is The "United" part of these un- United States these days:mad:
     
  26. RDR
    Joined: May 30, 2009
    Posts: 1,355

    RDR
    Member

     
  27. On methanol engines we always figured 3 times the volume. The problem with setting up your carb as an alchy carb is that it won't function well on gasoline. You have to run a larger needle and seat as well as larger jets. A carb can't be set up to do both well. Actually neither can electronic injection, the dual purpose cars get lousy mileage and most of them don't make the zot of one set up for one or the other.

    I do run nitrile pumps in my Holleys. The gasoline only pumps will work for awhile but they stop functioning well and the nitrile (sp?) pumps don't cost but just pennies more. I don't change them until I need to. I was reading recently that there is a source for nitrile pumps for your Strombergs also. I don't mes with Strombergs for my own use so I didn't write it down but they are available.

    I haven't seen E-85 yet. I'm still dealing with 10% alcohol. They did put an E-85 station in mid town here in KC. You know where the people who can't afford the type of car that would run E-85 live. But as far as I know it never had E-85 just the pump. Go figure. So even if they did have the stuff one would have to fight their way in and fight their way out to get it. The next nearest E-85 Station is going to be 3 or 5 hours away from here. Maybe they'll eventually make it fly but they have been trying since the 70s that I know of and haven't pulled it off yet.

    Never the less if you are building it doesn't hurt to build with alcohol in mind.
     
  28. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 8,900

    dirty old man
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    I'm short on time right now, but I'm gonna come back and read this whole thread,as it's grown exponentially since I read it yesterday. This post serves to subscribe to replies and help me find it again as I want to make some comments on my past experience with methanol and also on what I have read on some of the links provided in this thread. I wanted to go E85 on my latest engine and build it specifically for it, to take advantage of it's advantages and avoid the disadvantages, but didn't feel I had enough info. Be back tonight, gotta go.
    Dave
     
  29. I think that alcohol is something that we should all be keeping in mind. It sounds like a lot to learn but it isn't as bad as one might think. I do believe that we will be burning an alternative fuel at some point. Today alcohol seems like the most viable candidate.

    If E-85 or a reasonable facimile there of was redily available all my cars would be alchy burners.
     
  30. Tman
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 34,066

    Tman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I ran E85 for a couple years around here but when the price flip-flopped, the savings was just not there. I also found that my truck likes 25-50% best on average.
     

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