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Paintjob went wrong - Need advice - Pic Heavy

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by ctfortner, Jun 19, 2012.

  1. s55mercury66
    Joined: Jul 6, 2009
    Posts: 3,732

    s55mercury66
    Member
    from SW Wyoming

    2 more quotes that always made me cringe; "When you bring it back, that'll buff", and "When you bring it back, we can spot that in real quick". GRRRRRRRRR! I have actually worked for shops that thought we were doing too good a job (my grammar sucks) if we didn't have comebacks! A comeback being a dissatisfied customer! Bottom line here to me, as far as the job CT got on his ride, he probably got 4K worth of labor. BUT, the end product is obviously unsatisfactory, and I would have never let that car out the door looking like that. If the shop owner had ANY pride in his shop at all, he wouldn't have either. Financial troubles or whatever. Whew! Rant now complete.
     
  2. slinginrods
    Joined: Oct 6, 2008
    Posts: 422

    slinginrods
    Member
    from florida

    first i havent read each reply,but after 30 mins of reading this i will offer my 2 cents.i owned a steel fab shop for a while and had to bid on jobs every day.we looked at plans figured materials did our best at figuring labor and made the quote .if the customer agreed we got 50% down to cover buying steel and paying my guys incase i got stuck with this customers one off custom "followmathroppita valve"if he decided he didnt want it anymore.we also did welding and chassis fabrication and repairs on all sorts of cars including race cars and hot rods.those cars were almost always charged by the job or as the work was completed.many customers wanted an estimate on the final price but as we all know things can change very quickly whe building a car fron scratch.one example being a guy who came to me wanting a tube chassis built for his soon to be nova drag car.after we discussed what he wanted i gave him a price of around 15k.he later called me and said he was going to try to do it hisself to save money ,he could buy a "kit" for alot less.ok thats fine.then wants me to come check out his handy work which wasnt that bad considering he built it on a concrete pad using jack stands and blocks.now he wants me to do all the tin work an says"its not a show car it doesnt need to look that good"when he asked why some of the tin looked crooked i showed him how much his doit yourself tube chassis was off(up to 1 inch in some places)he got mad and said i was doing a shitty job.the problem is 1.most people dont know how much work really is involved in doing thing right.2.most people arent willing to pay for it.3.and most people want more than they deserve for what they are willing to pay.very few are willing to "do what ever it takes to make it right".4.you cant half ass anything and expect it to come out right.you get what you pay for.the 4 k you paid was cheap for the job you wanted(i owned a bodyshop for several years as well).the painter bid the job wrong,that shouldve cost you between 8-10k.but he screwed hiself for not communicating with you,unless you pulled the "we have a contract!".now he gets pissed because he cant make a profit or let alone break even.and he doesnt care anymore.doesnt make an excuse for shitty work.i wouldve called you and said ,"hey this is going to be way more than we both expected,we need to go over some things ."then we could both have come up with a plan to move forward or an exit plan.i get the feeling the guy was being pressured or threatened(read lawyer) to finish the car for the orig est so he did what he did.this is happening every day in this business.it costs alot of money to have other people do work for you.especially if you want things done right.
     
  3. ctfortner
    Joined: Aug 16, 2008
    Posts: 444

    ctfortner
    Member
    from West TN

    I hated to respond, because so many others already have on this very topic. But I feel I need to. First, I never pulled the "we got a contract", because I never had to. But your damn skippy I would have if he called me with that. You either bid the job right, or say I work by the hour cause i dont know whats there, period. I have a budget (wife) so my funds are precious. I know there are others than mentioned similar things and also asked what would I have done if he said I cant do it for this..Honestly (right or wrong) it would have been do it for that, or give me my money and car back. NOT because I dont think it would cost extra, but when I budget for something, I dont leave twice as much in the bank for sorry I misquoted. I just like a no BS approach to things, and if that is by the hour only then so be it. But when I get a turnkey quote whether it be a case of milk or my car, I want final product for that price we agreed, not sour milk or half assed paintjobs.

    You got a leak in your roof, I come by with my guys look it over, give you a turnkey quote. You agree. Job half done and I call and say, hey man, this gonna cost twice as much this is worse than I thought, is that OK with you? I doubt it. Why, because maybe you dont have the money to pay me twice what I quoted and now your half through a roofing job you cant afford. Bad spot. In your profession (cars I assume) you agree it would be ok to get half through a bid job and say nope, gonna cost more. But I doubt you would feel the same when a profession that you dont do, or know how to do, hit you with the same scenario. All I am saying is a bid is a bid, hourly or by the job. Whether you bid it right or wrong, you finish it the same, the customer shouldnt pay for that.

    s55merc, I feel the same man. dont understand it. I got BS'd in the beginning and BS'd in he end, about the buffing shit..
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2012
  4. nailhead terry
    Joined: Mar 23, 2008
    Posts: 1,452

    nailhead terry
    Member

    Man this is sad I have read all of it and It sucks but any car painter worth a shit can make more money doing spot repairs and insurance work. Old cars are not money makers most of these guys will work on them when they are hungry but you let a job come in that they can make 10 times the money on they will push yours out of the way. A contract is a good idea but shit lawer fees and grief are not gonna get your car painted right. No one wants to work on something that was fucked up by someone else and your already mad ! So anyone that touches this car is in for it ! I painted cars years and I quit I lost more money by doing the right thing than I care to talk about . The guy was a dumb ass for doing this to you he will pay for it ! But my best advice is learn to paint and you will understand what is involved and then you can do it yourself are know when its being done right !most junior colleges have an autobody class or theres some good books out there. 4000 dollars woud have bought a nice compressor and mig welder . I hate it for you .
     
  5. S_Mazza
    Joined: Apr 27, 2011
    Posts: 363

    S_Mazza
    Member

    With all due respect ... If you had mentioned all this earlier ... you might have gotten more useful replies! But I guess it depends on what exactly you were looking for. In any case, wow, there was a lot more to the story than what you let on!
     
  6. blinddaddykarno
    Joined: Feb 5, 2008
    Posts: 122

    blinddaddykarno
    Member


    WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!
    He had an agreement for a certain amount of work for a set price! As others have pointed out, regardless of the amount, the work AGREED upon was not done correctly! I have been in the position where I underestimated the amount of work needed to meet the agreed expectaions. At times, I did what the shop owner probably should have; called the owner and showed him what unforseen problems had showed up. Many times, something can be worked out. By not doing that, the shop owner should honor the original agreement, even if it means losing his shirt! Been there, done that, learned from it!
     
  7. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 7,829

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    There's no way that I would ever raise my right hand and say I never fucked up a quote or a job. I can raise that hand and say I've always solved the problem. Communication seems to be a lost art form. Why is that? Why is it that on several facets of our lives there's fingers pointing everywhere, yet almost never back at the pointers? Must be in the water.

    That outta the way, and this is in general speak to anyone hanging on "contract price", EVERYTHING is fixable. If a man fucked it up a man can fix it, INCLUDING paperwork and quotes. Suppose this happened:

    Hey Joe, I need you to come over and review our deal

    Why, what's up?

    Well, I know you want this thing right and I get that you have a budget, but now that we're all in I found some things neither of us thought was there. Stop over when you can, and I won't go any further until we have a plan both of us can live with.

    Ok, I see what you found. Fuckin eh, now what?

    Well I think both of us want to point at this with pride, and maybe if money's a problem we can stage it. Maybe I can get all of this done for ya but we can paint it later. At least you'll know what you have before color goes on.

    Well I don't have any more money for this.

    I get it, but I don't have any space in my reputation for just slapping out some junk ass work. You need to get your money's worth, and frankly I didn't rust out your car. I'd love to have your buisness, I only have $XXX.00 in it right now, and I understand if you wanna call it quits or look elsewhere. I'd rather both of be happy than lose my ass or give you junk. If you like I'll stop now, or I'll go as far as the money allows. It's up to you right now.

    Yeah, well we got a contract and I want the whole job for that price. (1 answer)

    Fine, sir. Here's your deposit back, no charge for what we did, and good luck with your project.



    (answer 2)

    How far can you get me? Can it be driveable at least?

    Tell ya what, I'll make sure it is. I can go that far. I just don't want you to end up with a bad job coming from my shop.

    Maybe in the meantime I can find some more money, but I'd appreciate whatever you can do for me.

    I'll do my best and keep you informed. Stop in any time.



    Wow, how hard would that have been? What would your answers be if you were either one, shop owner or customer? What would you think of the shop owner taking a personal interest in your project and it's quality?

    But this is more fun. Drama. Lies. Hack work. A "fuck this guy" attitude with the shop toward the customer because he blew his wad before he even got in the sack. In my personal opinion, this is exactly why your job went south. Definately the shop owner, maybe the customer, shoulda been just a bit more courageous and forward with their outlooks and stayed on top of the gig from day 1. To everyone reading this, it's the best and most expensive advertising you'll ever do. Expensive because you have to invest YOURSELF. The best because you can see from as far away as the next state. Good luck kids...
     
  8. S_Mazza
    Joined: Apr 27, 2011
    Posts: 363

    S_Mazza
    Member

    Upon further reflection, I realized that there is one bright spot to this sad story of a botched paintjob, a hard-working car enthusiast out his money, and a bodyman's life crumbling into a mess of drugs and alcohol.

    At least you now have a name for the car...

    Baked ALASKA

    [​IMG]

    http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/IceCream/BakedAlaska.htm

    Even the color scheme fits, especially if you correct it to "vanilla" as you wanted!
     
  9. I hope one day CT can find that funny.
    From my shoes I think it is, when I try to put myself in his shoes I can't see it right now.

    Highlander has some great points there.
     

  10. "Highlander" has hit the nail squarely on the head . If people pay attention and remember his words hopefully no one else will have to suffer through an experience like this .

    I would like to just add one comment . Beware of a fixed bid on a repair or restoration. A fixed bid will have a greater chance of becoming problematic. When neither party wants to or cant pay anymore for the unseen work and the communication among those involved is lacking, things will get swept under the rug. This thread is a perfect example of a fixed bid going into the toilet .

    Being fair to each other goes a long way .
     
  11. Well I sure hope you get it all sorted out and end up with a car you are happy with because you got screwed and have a remarkably good attitude about the whole thing. One day you will be able to look back and chalk this all up as just another story in the history of a pretty special car. Good luck with it all!!
     
  12. Hellfish
    Joined: Jun 19, 2002
    Posts: 6,401

    Hellfish
    Member

    Write a letter threatening legal action and/or calls to the BBB, etc as has been suggested... but add that you will drive the car around to a lot of shows, as is, with signs in the windows that say "Body and Paint by XXXX of XXXX, TN". Remind him how many shows you go to, local and regional. Ask him if he wants a car with cracked, bubbling and chipped paint, poorly aligned panels, etc used as a rolling advertisement for his shop. :)
     
  13. swissmike
    Joined: Oct 22, 2003
    Posts: 1,276

    swissmike
    Member

    I don't think anybody working on a budget will go for a time and materials type of quote unless he completely trusts the shop owner.
    It would have made the most sense to quote taking the car down to bare metal for a fixed cost, then issue another fixed quote for doing the bodywork and paint (as has been pointed out before...).
     
  14. ctfortner
    Joined: Aug 16, 2008
    Posts: 444

    ctfortner
    Member
    from West TN

    Well I got 3 meetings arranged with law-folk. I was reminded by my wife that her company offers legal and we pay monthly for it (cheap though) and they cover all this. We get all kind of legal coverage, but this is the coverage for small claims. So worse case they can help me put together a case and send a letter and all that good stuff, may better my odds.

    court.jpg
     
  15. Well I hope you get things worked out and more importantly get your paint job straightened out. I think the BAKED ALASKA name would be very fitting once everything has been worked out. When people ask about that name, you'll have a really good story to go along with it and after all, if you're going to name your car you should have that name mean something. Good luck, Sam
     
  16. ctfortner
    Joined: Aug 16, 2008
    Posts: 444

    ctfortner
    Member
    from West TN

    I meant to comment on that before. Hey, even in rough times I have a sense of humor..If we didnt, we would go insane, although my wife says I am there already.

    The ol' dove doesnt have a name, this may be a good one. Yall are right she needs a name, and it should have some kind of meaning behind it, so this might be it.

    I also have a nice piece I will keep in the car, maybe hang from the mirror. This first "body shop" that had my car (not the recent one), attempted to shave the hood for me. When the second place got the car, he re-did the shave job, and this is what came out of the hood ornament hole. No metal at all, just this. I can sure pick em cant I? clean it up a bit around the edges, and its a conversation piece.

    IMG04289-20111207-0837.jpg

    IMG04290-20111207-0838.jpg
     
  17. dad-bud
    Joined: Aug 22, 2009
    Posts: 3,885

    dad-bud
    Member

    Hmmmm, shameful story, but what's with the snow in the background of the horror pictures?
    When did this happen..........????
     
  18. ctfortner
    Joined: Aug 16, 2008
    Posts: 444

    ctfortner
    Member
    from West TN

    That horror story lasted a year, and ended in December 2011. Those pics were taken when I got the car back then and we found that.
     
  19. ctfortner
    Joined: Aug 16, 2008
    Posts: 444

    ctfortner
    Member
    from West TN

    So, talked to lawyer, showed him the agreements, text messages, and pictures. Agreed, have good case. He says before I proceed I definitely need a shop to estimate the repairs, as many of you have. BUT, like I told him, how can I get a shop to estimate this? Most (if not all) here have said it should be by the hour on a paintjob, if a shop cant give me a quote to paint it from the beginning, I doubt they would give me a quote to fix a mess they have not clue how bad is when they start digging in. I assume they would look at the issues and say well it could be xx hours to repair that, but once I get in there it may be worse and have to do the whole side, etc etc.
     
  20. zman
    Joined: Apr 2, 2001
    Posts: 16,559

    zman
    Member
    from Garner, NC


    An estimate is different than a bid or quote. I've done plenty of estimates. I try and make sure that the customer understands that is what it is. And communicate that what issues there are that will change the price.
     
  21. FatChrist Magic
    Joined: Jun 4, 2012
    Posts: 66

    FatChrist Magic
    Member

    Fixing the problem really should mean bringing the car back to the state it was in when the work was begun. How do you even begin to put an estimate on that?
     
  22. Take it over to High speed low drag's" shop for your estimate.

    It really is a tough one.

    Best you could hope for is to be compensated for labor to remove what was done improperly and a refund of that work. Considering it was not correct when it was taken to the baked Alaskan's employer, for you to be made whole you need to have your car in that condition. There is no way to estimate that.

    Give the lawyer exactly what he asked for, not what you think he wants. They are slippery and tricky rascals and you don't know their angle all the time. How much to fix your car?
     
  23. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 7,829

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    *The labor cost may exceed the estimate totals due to damage not visible until disassembly or removal of existing parts/panels/paint finish. It is our policy to stop operations until additional labor cost is authorized by the customer should this occur.

    That should be on every custom shop's estimate form and signed by the customer.


    Just sayin...
     
  24. PetesPonies
    Joined: Nov 6, 2007
    Posts: 268

    PetesPonies
    Member
    from Maryland

    seems like I read that somewhere :eek:

     
  25. Nothing to add about the paint job, just came across this on facebook and thought about your car. Similar colors, just two toned a little differently. And is that a little chop? Maybe this will give you a little more incentive.
     

    Attached Files:

  26. pug man
    Joined: Apr 9, 2007
    Posts: 1,010

    pug man
    Member
    from louisiana

    Man oh man this was worse than a horror move. I sure feel for you and i hope you get it worked out. It's hard for me to take any vehicle I am working on to somebody else because you just don't know what is going to happen once it get there.... sad sad sad
     
  27. Torque-Tube
    Joined: Nov 9, 2008
    Posts: 146

    Torque-Tube
    Member

    This thread has given me a new appreciation for the paint on my cars. They are crappy but they come by it honestly.
     
  28. ctfortner
    Joined: Aug 16, 2008
    Posts: 444

    ctfortner
    Member
    from West TN

    Ok all, now I got more questions. I havent talked to anyone about coming out here yet, too busy with the holiday and parties, which i am still recovering from. But a friend brought her boyfriend over last night. He owned a body/paint place in CA for 25 years. He looked at the car and immediately said "that is enamel on the roof", which is what my other friend told me. BUT, he is the first to say "this is lacquer on the body, not urethane". WTF? He says he can tell from the stretching etc, stuff I dont see or know how to see.

    So now I am trying to figure out if it is. I read an old post here that said using a dab of lacquer thinner on a rag and wipe it on a spot to see. So I thought the best place to do that is under the trunk lid, because it has no clear under there. I dabbed some on the rag, made a one finger gentle swipe and this is the result. What does it tell me? This was 1 light swipe, no rubbing or pressing hard.

    Will the result be different considering the time the paint has had to set/cure? It has been painted for 3 months this week.

    lacquerthinnertest.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2012
  29. It looks like lacquer to me.
     
  30. ctfortner
    Joined: Aug 16, 2008
    Posts: 444

    ctfortner
    Member
    from West TN

    I didnt think they even sold that anymore, do they? The paint store where he supposedly got the paint said they dont sell lacquer, and also said if it is urethane with no clear on it, it will rub right off with thinner. True?
     

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