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Technical Painting: What respirator ?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by ekimneirbo, Aug 11, 2020.

  1. ekimneirbo
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 1,593

    ekimneirbo
    Member
    from Brooks Ky

    I don't remember where I saw it, probably in one of the old Hot Rod/Car Craft/Street Rodder mags. They recommended using a pressure regulator that wasn't right at the gun. I believe it was because it was a disruption to air flow and by adjusting pressure before it entered the hose it had a chance to fill the hose with a less turbulent air supply at the gun. Yes there should be a pressure guage right at the gun though. Once the pressure is adjusted at the wall the guage at the gun will show if its correct. Seems logical to me that less turbulence as air enters the gun might be a good thing, but it might not make any real difference either. I always wondered about the ability of many HVLP guns to be adjusted properly when they use small orifice fittings. The whole idea is about volume of air at a lower pressure. I'm just looking to make the path of the air non-problematic by using larger fittings and trying to take the turbulence out of it. Might be overkill on my part, but I also don't see how it could have any detrimental effect when painting.

    Dick, I have my system set up so the tank pressure is 170lbs.The air goes thru a homemade chiller before going into the air tank. Piping from the tank goes thru a wall to another regulator/water trap and then continues as piping along the wall. That regulator inside the building is where I set my gun pressure. I know that it does no good to have the regulator/water separator close to or on the compressor, so I have taken steps to insure moisture gets removed prior to entering the compressor tank. Then after air enters the building I adjust the line pressure to suit the spray gun. My system is probably overkill, but the idea is to eliminate as many possible problems as I can . :D
     
  2. My point was more that people don't know better than the manufacturers what is best no matter what they think. 99.9% of the time manufacturers recommendation are not debatable. I mention this often on this board, manufacturers don't make recommendations just for the sake of making recommendations or to cover their ass. They make recommendations because that is how their products work best. They test things repeatedly, in multiple environments, over long periods of time before they come up with TDS sheets.

    I see it all the time where people think their way is better, or a buddy does it this way all the time, or they read it in a magazine etc and then are upset when it fails. I had one this week where a guy spent a bunch of time and money making and painting a custom hood for an off topic project and then didn't follow our application recommendations "because it was the way he had always done it". He is now in the process of redoing it because it all failed and the products are peeling off the hood. Took me about 3 seconds to diagnose his problem. It was the second thing listed on our TDS and he didn't follow it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
  3. ekimneirbo
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 1,593

    ekimneirbo
    Member
    from Brooks Ky

    Every manufacturer tells people how to do things and people who actually do follow those directions end up with bad paint jobs. Those bad paint jobs are often because they thought their system or preparation was sufficient......but it turned out not to be sufficient. Taking extra steps to try to create a better delivery system should be a good thing.......and it can still be done within the scope of the paint manufacturers recommendations.
    How many people who get water in their paint have their water separator less than 10 feet from their compressor? In my set-up, I have my initial compressor pumping air about 15 feet before it enters a heat exchanger made from 3/4 copper tubing. The air works it's way thru about 80 ft of tubing and enters the SIDE of an 80 gallon tank. The tank provides a reservoir and most moisture falls to the bottom. Air at the TOP of the tank then returns back 15 feet and enters the SIDE of the main 80 gallon tank where any left over water has a second chance to leave the air as it continues to cool before it exits the TOP of the second tank and proceeds through about 3 feet of pipe to a large industrial debris filter and 4 more feet of pipe to another conventional water separator/ pressure regulator. Then the air finally enters the last piping at whatever low pressure I have chosen. All pipe has a minimum of 3/4" diameter to provide high volume at low pressure AND moderate temperature. That prevents the air from having to fight it's way thru 30 ft of very small hose whose thickness helps retain heat and the trapped water that most people have in their system. My air has already given up it's moisture and temperature before it ever enters the short hoses needed for my system. Anyone who thinks compressed air doesn't have an elevated temperature should let their compressor pump up and then go lay their hand on the air tank. Then plug an air tool in your hose "slowly" and see if any vapor comes from the hose as you connect it. The paint manufacturers make their paint where it can succeed even in amatuer applications, but anything someone can do to improve their system is a good thing.

    Yes, everyone needs to follow the manufacturers application recommendations, but eliminating deficiencies in your application system beforehand is a good thing in my opinion.

    Now I know that manufacturers provide directions but they don't expect the average backyard painter to go to the trouble I have in order to elimanate problems caused by moisture and hot air. Their directions are for professionals that have much more expensive systems and booths. The average guy is taking a calculated risk and hoping for the best . They usually have a rudimentary "booth", and their air lines contain moisture because their pressure regulator and water separator are mounted right on their compressor.
     
  4. spanners
    Joined: Feb 24, 2009
    Posts: 1,036

    spanners
    Member

    This isn't a reason to be slack but I shake my head thinking about it sometimes. My father started his panelbeating apprenticeship when he was 14. This was back when lead wiping was the only way to fill. They would build up the lead and then grind it down a bit before finishing with a file. He has often told me about the sun coming through the workshop windows and the air would be full of silvery glitter from the lead grinding. No masks were used.
    He had his own business later on and did all the repair and painting himself mostly with lacquer and air dry enamel. No mask was used.
    When two pack paint came out he sprayed truck cabs with it. No mask was used.
    He sold his business 20 years ago and is turning 90 year old this December. No real health issues. Sturdy old buggers aren't they. I used to go and help him after school and in summer the moths and insects were a nuisance of an evening so he'd shut the shed doors and spray straight thinner into the air to kill them. I'm 63 and ticking over okay.
     
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  5. birdman1
    Joined: Dec 6, 2012
    Posts: 1,033

    birdman1
    Member

    That's why acrylic enamel is what I use. And the cost of the paint. Best paint job I ever saw was hand rubbed laqure. Can't buy it it's so nasty
     
  6. Lloyd's paint & glass
    Joined: Nov 16, 2019
    Posts: 3,215

    Lloyd's paint & glass
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I have a magical air compressor and respirator, i have no moisture in my paint and everything always comes out perfect around here :rolleyes: but I'll go to my grave with the belief that you're either predisposed to have cancer, or you're not. I know multiple elderly painters, smokers, mechanics...... that are healthy as a horse. Seen many children die from cancer that never painted a car or used brake cleaner. You're either chosen or you're not.
     
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  7. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 2,831

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    "Feed a lab rat enough peanut butter it'll give em cancer , heart disease & diabetes & polyps in their colon !" 1977 , my cousin , who was doing bio medical research at the University of Wi.
     
  8. ekimneirbo
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 1,593

    ekimneirbo
    Member
    from Brooks Ky

    Lloyd, I tend to think that you are right. The question in my mind is whether or not that predisposition may require an "activator" sometimes. While some people may be impervious to Cancer, many others don't seem to ever have a problem until they interact with certain products. Yes there are people who develop cancer with no know causation.....so they were "predisposed". Yet others who never had Cancer suddenly develop it when exposed to certain things. Yes they may have been predisposed also, but if they didn't have an activator, might those people have never had a problem?

    There was a guy I used to work with. Guy really had everything going for him. Nice looking,smart, perfect physical condition............and I mean "perfect". He was not all muscles but didn't have an ounce of fat on him. Watched everything he ate, worked out, and even competed in contests for body builders. Had a little waist that most women would be jealous of. I mean this guy took the best care of himself that any human could do.
    When he was about 55, he got a rare form of cancer that had about a 90% fatality rate. Things were dicey for a while but he managed to survive it. I do think his physical condition played a part in him surviving. That most likely would be a case of predisposition but then I can't say it for sure. You just never know where you are on the dna scale.
     
  9. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 17,870

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Luck is not a survival strategy, and dead men tell no tales.

    The plural of the word anecdote is not the word data.
     
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  10. ekimneirbo
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 1,593

    ekimneirbo
    Member
    from Brooks Ky

    Started working on/playing with hooking up a fresh air respirator. Had to buy some fittings and add a little creativity to get it to work. Hooked up one of the Scott masks I have on hand and it seemed to pump plenty of air to breathe. I haven't finished with where the rubber hose connects to the pump yet. This is a slightly smaller "Gast" brand pump rather than the larger one with the heavier/larger hose my neighbor gave me. Whoever had the pump had a "barb" type fitting on it and the hose slips on. Hose is a little small to fit it but I can get it on. Anyway, when I turned the pump on, after running for a minute or so, I noticed that the rubber hose was very warm/hot for a foot or so. I don't like that because I'm concerned that heating the hose may produce some type of fumes that end up in my lungs. I think I'm going to make a copper coil exiting the pump and run that to a filter housing that I will pack with filter material to catch any dust or debris. That will be mounted on the outside of the booth and then a copper pipe from the housing thru the wall to a quick disconnect inside the booth. That should keep the heat at bay from the rubber hose and provide an additional level of air filtration. I found a water filter and housing on Ebay that has a clear housing so I can see any moisture or if the filter material becomes dirty. I assume the water filter will pass air ok and it will be wrapped in the additional filter material. Any suggestions?
     
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  11. Dick Stevens
    Joined: Aug 7, 2012
    Posts: 2,980

    Dick Stevens
    Member

    Make sure you purchase hose that is made for supplied air, you can't use regular air hose!
     
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  12. Fitty Toomuch
    Joined: Jun 29, 2010
    Posts: 239

    Fitty Toomuch
    Member
    from WVa

    The topic is respirator, not paint systems and problems!
     
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  13. ekimneirbo
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 1,593

    ekimneirbo
    Member
    from Brooks Ky

    You are right, but along the way I asked others to also talk about which paints needed which respirators and we also visited with some related information on paint problems. I deleted the troubleshooting chart. Back on topic now..........:D
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2020
  14. ekimneirbo
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 1,593

    ekimneirbo
    Member
    from Brooks Ky

    That was one of my concerns with the hose. Both of the respirator machines I have came with a black rubber(?) type of hose. I wondered if they were original from the manufacturer. They look similar but are different sizes and from different manufacturers. I need to look and see if there is any markings on them. I tend to think they are correct because of the similarity. Good point though.
     
  15. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,578

    anthony myrick
    Member

    Just had a good friend diagnosed with Parkinson’s. A painter and fellow instructor.
    I plan on making changes to aid the luck theory as best as I can.
     
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  16. It's your thread add whatever you want. Gotta love guys coming on and bitching at the OP over the direction he takes his own thread.

    Sent from my SM-G950W using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  17. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,578

    anthony myrick
    Member

    Yes. Repost the defects. It’s your world.
     
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  18. bigdog
    Joined: Oct 30, 2002
    Posts: 582

    bigdog
    Member

    There was a thread on here years ago where somebody made their own air supplied respirator. They used a full face mask and a small shop vac for the air supply. Made a simple fitting out of plumbing parts to attach the hose to the mask where one of the filters went. The only problem was that it supplied way too much air and pressurized the mask to the point he said it was hard to exhale. Gate valve on a tee fitting to control pressure solved that. Very simple and inexpensive setup.
     
  19. :D:D:D
     
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  20. ekimneirbo
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 1,593

    ekimneirbo
    Member
    from Brooks Ky

    OK, here is the chart again. I posted this because I felt it is a good reference that some may want to print out and put wherever they keep their painting stuff. As was mentioned, this thread is supposed to be about Masks and Respirators, so I would appreciate it if those who want to make a copy....do so. Don't want to drift away from the main topic though.;)

    Paint Flaws 1 001.jpg Paint Flaws 2 001.jpg
    Paint Flaws 3 001.jpg
    Paint Flaws 4 001.jpg
    Paint Flaws 5 001.jpg Paint Flaws 5 001.jpg
    Paint Flaws 6 001.jpg
    Paint Flaws 7 001.jpg
    OK, now back to Masks and Respirators........
     
  21. Fitty Toomuch
    Joined: Jun 29, 2010
    Posts: 239

    Fitty Toomuch
    Member
    from WVa

    Sorry, did`nt check the OP, Your thread stray all ya want.
    I just subbed to find an actual respirator that would protect from most paints of the day.
    No manufacture has the balls to say, only to cover their ass from a lawsuit.
    Carry on.
     
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  22. ekimneirbo
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 1,593

    ekimneirbo
    Member
    from Brooks Ky

    Actually you were right, so no problem here.
     
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  23. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,578

    anthony myrick
    Member

    I teach high school students.
    Those guys get tickled the first time they hear that term.
    The epoxy explanation is kinda how I explain the process.
    An epoxy molecule walks up to a catalyst molecule at a club and asks ‘hey, do you incubate her often’
     
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  24. ekimneirbo
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 1,593

    ekimneirbo
    Member
    from Brooks Ky

    I watched an episode of Dave Kindig's Bitchin last night and I noticed when they sprayed the primer on the car they used a simple mask, but when they did the final paint they used a full coverage helmet and suit.

    Anyway, I'm setting my system up so that I can use the same type of helmet OR an air supplied mask since I have both types and they were free. My neighbor retired and closed his business and he has had these things sitting in his pole barn for years. The corrugated hoses that work with the helmet have a thin foam strip in them. I guess it is to catch dust. It is actuall attached inside at the upper end so it can't fall out. They looked okay but when you messed with them they crumbled or squished into a glob. I removed them and flushed the corrugated hoses out with water and soap.
    Then I took some filter material (that I bought from him a couple years ago) and cut strips of it and packed it up in the hose. That should be even more effective than the small strip was at catching anything coming from the air pump.

    DSCN2400.JPG
     
  25. You see lots of stupid things on TV shows. Like welding without a mask. It is literally the last place I would look for safety advice.

    Sent from my SM-G950W using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  26. Sadly, there's probably even more people that you never got a chance to know, because.. they're long since gone.
     
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