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Technical Painting: What respirator ?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by ekimneirbo, Aug 11, 2020.

  1. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,170

    anthony myrick
    Member

    Same results is a grey area.
    A lacquer paint job that is applied correctly and prepped correctly will probably look better than a urethane product.
    The upkeep will be greater. And more fragile. But is repairs easier.
    Finding the quality thinners (not the crap you use for cleanup) can be hard to locate. The average paint store will not have lacquer binders.
    So that leaves us with enamel. Straight enamel without a catalyst chips easy and just lacks depth in my opinion.

    Exposure time to the bad stuff is as big as safety
    The hobbyist doing occasional work using good safety is not the same as a guy that paints every day.
    The bad stuff is not just paints and primers. Every body filler, liquid, fuel, oil, cleaner, sanding dust, grinding dust, exhaust, fume ........needs to be considered.
    If ya wash your hands with brake cleaner everyday, spraying some paint a couple times a year is no problem. Add that to tobacco, excessive alcohol and all the chemicals in the garbage we eat and all the signals and waves we bombard our bodies with.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020
  2. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 2,738

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    Just so you know , the " space suits" have been around & recommended for better than 30 years Its a " Clint Eastwood " situation , do you feel lucky ?
     
  3. Gman0046
    Joined: Jul 24, 2005
    Posts: 6,253

    Gman0046
    Member

    I've spent my whole life in the aviation industry. Back in the day when I was an A&P mechanic I worked with someone who every day rinsed out his work clothes in Trichloretholene and even put his clothes back on when damp.Tricloretholene is one of the worst carcinogens known to man. I often wonder how long that fellow lived.
    Myrick has just about hit it all on the things that can hurt you bad. One other is the polishing of chrome and stainless. Someone in that profession I know died from cancer way to early in his life.
     
  4. Since you already have the air pump I'd use it... yes the hose is a little bit of a pain; but it's worth it. I've used them with both half-mask and full-face masks depending upon the paint being used.
     
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  5. Fitty Toomuch
    Joined: Jun 29, 2010
    Posts: 238

    Fitty Toomuch
    Member
    from WVa

    I researched this stuff when I painted my car, and then as now via your links, Though they list some nasty vapors and chems. Their is no mention of any type of paints... What cartridge is good for paints urethane etc? Thanks
     
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  6. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 2,738

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    I think that's the point , there are no cartridge masks " good" for automotive paint . Same with many hazardous substances ,its a fresh air respirator or nothing !
     
  7. ekimneirbo
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 1,456

    ekimneirbo
    Member
    from Brooks Ky

    I don't consider that a stupid question. There are so many brands of paint and all different types. If someone locks in on one manufacturer they can probably outfit themselves with all the stuff they need. Then you see a different color you want or a price you like better and you order something else............and try to follow the directions. Unless you do it a lot, you (me) tend not to even know for sure just what dangers are present with the paint you chose. Personally I'm a little adverse to base coat/clear coat stuff because I have seen a lot of clear coat that was problematic as time went by. I'm happy with a little less sheen and a color thats easy to match when needed. I don't know of any places that still sell lacquer tho I hear they exist. I was always kinda partial to enamel. Personally I would like to have a chart of some kind that explains the different paints and their pros/cons.

    And I wanted to Thank Anthony Myrick for the filter info.
     
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  8. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,170

    anthony myrick
    Member

    I could give an abbreviated paint lesson if ya want. Don’t want to high jack if I haven’t already.
    Just basic stuff. I’m not a chemical engineer like some of these other guy are.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020
  9. Roothawg
    Joined: Mar 14, 2001
    Posts: 20,199

    Roothawg
    Member

    I like full face respirators. The chemicals these days leach in through your eyes. I have buddies with permanent nervous system damage that laughed at respirators. Now they have to walk with a cane at 54 years old.
     
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  10. ekimneirbo
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 1,456

    ekimneirbo
    Member
    from Brooks Ky

    Would appreciate it very much....... I have already learned a lot from this thread and some PM it generated. I think a lot of people may be thinking about what they are doing based on you guys inputing good info.;)
     
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  11. ekimneirbo and Roothawg like this.
  12. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,170

    anthony myrick
    Member

    ekimneirbo likes this.
  13. BamaMav
    Joined: Jun 19, 2011
    Posts: 4,435

    BamaMav
    Member
    from Berry, AL

    Good discussion. Most of my painting is rattle can or a brush, but every few years I do paint a car with automotive enamel. Most of mine have been 10 footers, any closer and you see any flaws that I either missed or just didn’t do a good enough job on the bodywork. I’ve always used a cartridge respirator, and I’m always outside, either under a carport or even out in the yard. I don’t try to get a show car finish, I know I’ll never be able to do it under these conditions, but I do try to make it presentable.
     
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  14. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 17,656

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    If you are using that for protection while painting, you are on the fast track to a funeral.

    That is a particulate filter, and WILL NOT STOP the passage of aerosolized solvents!

    That's what we wear under our welding helmets. If I got caught wearing one of those at work, in the paint booth, I would be fired, on the spot.
     
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  15. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 2,738

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    If you google " dupli color lacquer there's some older discussions from this forum that come up ..
     
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  16. Fogger
    Joined: Aug 18, 2007
    Posts: 1,488

    Fogger
    Member

    For a hobbyist I definitely agree that unless the correct safety equipment is used your life is in danger. I've been painting my cars since the '60s and always used lacquer or synthetic enamel. I also always wore a charcoal respirator and had exhaust fans constantly running. The last car I painted was my 3W in '99 with RM acrylic lacquer. Since lacquer and thinners are no longer available I quit painting. As others have warned the catalyzed paints are very dangerous without the correct safety equipment and should be avoided unless you have full protection.
     
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  17. TCP Global is about the only place that still sells lacquer other than the premixed limited colour Duplicolor stuff.
     
  18. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,170

    anthony myrick
    Member

    The last I heard, paint guru has a lacquer product line.
     
  19. I am not sure his is lacquer in a true sense. He uses a urethane reducer and was talking about 2-3 coat coverage. That's not what make lacquer look good. It's the fact that it doesn't cover well and you need lots of coats to achieve that depth of colour that you don't get in urethane paints that makes lacquer look so good not 2 coat coverage.
     
  20. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 2,738

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    Is he still around ?
     
  21. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,170

    anthony myrick
    Member

    Here is a simplified explanation for what paint is and why the cost differences.
    Paint is pigment (color) suspended in a binder(resin). Solvents are added to make the paint sprayable.
    Additives are added for hardness, flex, scratch and UV protection, adhesion .........

    Binders are the backbone. It’s what determines what kind of paint it is.
    Examples are : lacquer, urethane, acrylics, enamels, polys latex .....Most of the resins that make them are produced in a small number of factories. Meaning several paint companies use resins from the same factory.

    Pigments are the colors. Most pigments come from the same manufacturers and used by the various paint companies.

    When you purchase paint at the supplier, the same pigments are used for the various binders. The color is mixed, then the binder is added.

    Why the different paint lines and differences in prices.?
    As a company developes a new line of paint, they stop/slow development of the older line. The focus for paint formulation (color matching) is focused on the new line. More attention = more money invested. The high end base coats are made for matching new car colors. Add that to the big name guys sponsoring race teams and also purchase tons of equipment for body shops.
    Dang
    Paint manufactures focus on OEMs and body shops. Restorers and hot rod guys are considered a nuisance by most of them.

    The pigments being the same means the cost is in the binders. Thats why the straight enamel is cheaper than a urethane for the exact same color.

    The higher end or more expensive paint lines contains more solids (pigments) thus cost more. A high end red could cover in 2-3 coats compared to 3-5 in a cheaper line. So you have to weigh that as a cost factor. The lower lines often recommend a tinted sealer to achieve full coverage. Another cost factor.

    just adding some insight that is often overlooked.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
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  22. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,170

    anthony myrick
    Member

    He is busy running a company. I see him at my update training
     
  23. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,170

    anthony myrick
    Member

    I sprayed a small amount only.
    The EPA doesn’t like lacquer. The solvent content is too high.
    However, if you say reducer on the instructions and change the ratio that changes.
    So, it could still be shot with the correct high grade thinners....if ya got em.
     
  24. I understand that but 2 coat coverage is not what you want from a lacquer. Also we make a high quality low VOC lacquer thinner that is a 1:1 ratio for our lacquer primer that is legal everywhere so it can be done.

    Sent from my SM-G950W using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  25. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,170

    anthony myrick
    Member

    Didn’t know that on the lacquer
    That’s cool. Cali even likes it?
    The stuff I shot did cover well but I understand the the point. I don’t think the stuff we shot was reduced 1:1. But we did use a reducer. I thought it would look killer unbuffed to resemble many factory interior colors.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020
  26. duncan
    Joined: Aug 23, 2006
    Posts: 1,127

    duncan
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I’ve used his product, it’s excellent. It requires a urethane reducer 1/1 and applies beautifully.
     
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  27. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,170

    anthony myrick
    Member

    Before this virus crap shut us down, I was working with students on an experiment.
    We sprayed a color in both straight enamel and base/clear. We also shot them both with a siphon and HVLP gun. We did this with both a solid color and a metallic color.

    There was very little visual if any between the enamel and base/ clear for the solid color. Both had great gloss. Possibly a slight depth difference but both looked great.
    The metallic color was different.
    The single stage did not come close to the gloss or depth of the base/clear.
    The single stage metallic looked grainer and mottled (dark spots or shadows)
    The HVLP sprayed the metallic much better than the siphon gun for the base/clear.
    About even for the single stage metallic.

    No visual difference for either gun on the single stage solid color once polished.
    The base/clear had more initial gloss than the single stage, but after polishing they were dang near equal.
    The biggest difference was the amount used.
    The HVLP used less material and produced a significantly smaller amount of overspray.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020
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  28. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,170

    anthony myrick
    Member

    Last year we experimented with some alkyd equipment enamel.
    We shot a cheap catalyzed alkyd on a properly prepped panel. Super easy to shoot.
    Gave it a week to cure then cut and buffed it.
    Looked incredible. Very glossy.
    That product should be just under $50 a gallon to shoot.
    This product would be a step or two above rustoleum at almost identical money if you purchase the hardener.
    it dried much better and we actually featheredged a scratch we purposely put on it. I don’t think the oil base would do that.
    That could be our next experiment.
     
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  29. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,170

    anthony myrick
    Member

    The biggest difference between old and.new paints is coverage.
    If you mix a gallon of lacquer 1:1 with thinner. You still have 1 gallon of lacquer.
    That gallon of thinner floats away.
    The solid (pigment) content is lower in some old technology paints and usually in cheaper line paints. This means more coats to achieve coverage. We discovered this with our enamel vs base/clear.
    The base coat covered quicker than the enamel
    This is due to how we are taught to paint plus gun design combined with a higher solid paint. With a HVLP you are closer and overlap more, generally 75%.
    The reduced air pressure of the HVLP produces less overspray. The overlap increase, smaller pattern, less pressure and decreased distance creates a better transfer efficiency.

    The overspray from the high pressure, fully opened up siphon gun compared to the low pressure HVLP was impressive. The test panels we sprayed were placed on a table covered with white masking paper. The overspray from the siphon gun completely covered the perimeter of the test panel while the HVLP overspray only tinted the paper around the perimeter.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020
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  30. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,170

    anthony myrick
    Member

    How to read a tech sheet.
    Every product has a tech sheet. Google the name/number and you should find em.
    They will list how the product is to be used.

    Substrates: This is what you are spraying on. Steel, aluminum, fiberglass, existing finish types........

    Preparation: This is the cleaning and sanding grits recommended by the paint maker. If the highest grade of recommended sand paper is 220, then expect problems if you spray it over 400 grit. Expect to see scratches later if you apply the product over grits below the recommended minimum.

    Mixing Ratio: This is how to mix it. Many will list different temp products. Don’t use a cold weather hardener or reducer when its 95 degrees. The first number of the ratio is the material you are spraying. The tech sheet will tell you which products follow.

    Potlife: This is not an herbal magazine. This is how long the product remains sprayable at a GIVEN TEMP. The higher the temp, the shorter the potlife. The rule of thumb I use is for every 10 degrees over the given temp, cut the potlife in half. If it’s 3 hours at 70 degrees, then that potlife should be 45 minutes at 90.

    Application: Number of coats, spray gun PSI and gun tip recommendations. Don’t expect to spray a product recommended for a 1.8-2.0 sized tip to spray a through a 1.3 tip.

    Flash Time: This is the recommended time between coats at a given temp. It’s the initial drying as solvents evaporate. Do not recoat a product too quickly. Trapped solvents usually mean a re do. This can be listed under the dry times recommendations.

    Dry Times. How long you wait at a given temp before you do things like, apply tape for additional colors, add clear, polish, handle ......
    If the dry time is exceeded, scuffing/sanding and a recoat may be necessary. Clear coat can fail if you wait too long before applying over a base coat. Waiting too long between single stage paints can cause issues. Too little time between coats can cause issues.

    Then you have clean up info.
    The laboratory guys spend a lot of time trying to make their products fail. Don't out think em or think you can outsmart a chemical.
    tech sheet examples
    https://www.myrv14.com/buildlog/20150124/JP37x-Series-Epoxy-Primers.pdf

    http://www.collisionblast.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/JB_Basecoat_SLJB414.pdf

    Induction period. I almost forgot this one. I have only seen this with EPOXY. It’s the time you let the mixed material sit. For some reason the epoxy molecules don’t like each other at first. They need to sit and talk things out so they will work together. Not doing this can lead to an expensive re-do.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020

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