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Technical Paint question

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by vtwhead, Nov 12, 2021.

  1. I ordered my paint thru Summit. Base coat/clear coat 3.5 VOC. Yesterday we began the painting process and quickly realized that while all the additives were 3.5 products, we ended up with plain urethane base coat paint.
    After numerous calls to customer service, their paint tech says that we can use the paint even though it is not 3.5 voc. As stated, "it won't be a problem" but I struggle with that a bit. I am not qualified to know and we have not used 3.5 VOC paint prior to this. My friend is painting the car and he has over 50 years' experience in the booth but he has reservations.
    Once it goes on it is too late for this conversation so I am looking to you guys who have more experience with VOC to suggest what to do. Yes, I can return the paint and order the VOC BC but time is of the essence here and I am tying up the booth. The earliest I can receive the new paint would be next Wed/Thursday.
    Any suggestions?
     
  2. What are you worried about? OSHA? EPA? Not compatible? If the supplier says ok, shoot it
     
    porknbeaner, Budget36 and SS327 like this.
  3. wheeldog57
    Joined: Dec 6, 2013
    Posts: 2,206

    wheeldog57
    Member

    I don't know anything about VOCs or paint at all for that matter but I would listen carefully to your friend with the 50 years experience. I hope it all goes on without any issues. Painting can be stressful. Good luck
     
  4. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 8,990

    anthony myrick
    Member

    Last edited: Nov 12, 2021
    porknbeaner and alanp561 like this.

  5. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 8,990

    anthony myrick
    Member

    If it’s just the base coat, I don’t think I’d worry about it as long as it’s a solvent based reducer.
     
    alanp561 likes this.
  6. KenC
    Joined: Sep 14, 2006
    Posts: 668

    KenC
    Member

    I think Summit paint is from Kirker. So o looked at their tech sheets on line. They allow use of 3.5 reducer in 2.8 base subject to local rules. That indicates to me that the two lines are compatible.
    If you still have doubts I recommend a call to kirker and confirm, not summit
     
    -Brent- and anthony myrick like this.
  7. Thanks for the replies. We are concerned about using the VOC reducers and hardners with the standard base coat paint. The reducers and hardners for the standard base coat have all different part numbers when compared to that of the VOC line. That may be necessary to meet regulations but we don't know.
    Thanks Ken for the Kirker tip. I will look on line and call them.
     
  8. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 8,990

    anthony myrick
    Member

    The base coat is catalyzed?
     
  9. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 8,990

    anthony myrick
    Member

    Should have looked it up before asking
    787FABB7-418B-4821-B5E2-CE7B5AE08CD9.jpeg
     
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  10. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 8,990

    anthony myrick
    Member

  11. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 8,990

    anthony myrick
    Member

    Post a pic of the materials you have.
     
  12. whiteknuckle
    Joined: Feb 6, 2007
    Posts: 64

    whiteknuckle
    Member
    from Dryden, NY

    Serious question...................
    I have a paint shop within 15 miles of my house. I've dealt with the guy there for years. He is very knowledgeable on old and new products and will mix me no cost color samples, etc. and help in any way I need. Whenever I see an internet post asking about advice on paint products or discussing paint purchased on-line I always wonder if the poster has no access to a decent paint supply shop. Is this the primary reason for purchasing on-line and soliciting help on-line.
    Again, not trying to be a dick, just curious.......
     
  13. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 8,990

    anthony myrick
    Member

    I always buy from the paint store.
    But I have a account there and get the jobber price. I can see ordering online because most paint stores will stick it to a walk-in customer.
    The advantage of a paint store is info and products if ya need more or have issues.
    However, if the paint store guy doesn’t actually paint cars or have a background painting, don’t take their word as gospel.
    Always get the product tech sheet.
    Most all are available online now
     
    BJR likes this.
  14. Summit Racing SHZ-SWBRV580Q-12 Summit Racing™ 2-Stage System - Low-VOC Base Coat Reducer | Summit Racing

    Summit Racing SUM-SWSH622Q-12 Summit Racing™ 2.1 VOC Clear Coat Hardener | Summit Racing
    this hardener is used for the base coat as well as for the clear coat (75-90degrees)

    Summit Racing SUM-SWBC538-12 Summit Racing™ 2-Stage System - Base Coat | Summit Racing
    Anthony, the above are the three pieces we received. The paint should have been this product:
    Summit Racing SHZ-SWBC538VQ-12 Summit Racing™ 2-Stage System - 3.5 Low VOC Base Coat Paints | Summit Racing

    I have been in touch with customer service and they will allow me to return the base coat albeit that they will not handle the shipping as they normally would because of the hazardous nature. They indicate it is too expensive to ship back.????? although it wasn't too expensive to ship it fedx to me. Go figure.
    I will attempt to return it via ups next week.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  15. That is exactly what we have in this town. NAPA has no paint tech, Advanced is no longer selling paint and the Orielly guys cannot seem to get their act together. They do not sell 2k high build primer for example. This seems to be a typical situation currently everywhere near us as employees have retired or just plain quit. All these stores have signs soliciting for help. The last paint I bought in town was a pint of single stage Wimbleton white (71 Ford I believe) and that took NAPA 3 days to produce it.
     
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  16. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 8,990

    anthony myrick
    Member

    It’s hard to buy paint at the store that sells mufflers. The guys selling it are trained very well.
    When these chain stores do get a qualified paint employee, they’re usually not employed long.
     
    Budget36 likes this.
  17. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 8,990

    anthony myrick
    Member

    If your not comfortable using the different products together, don’t.
    You’ll always second guess that if there is an issue.
    I’d be interested in the non VOC base coat tech sheet.
    Then compare it to the VOC tech sheet.
    I’ve mismatched products before but never for a customer. Mistakes cost too much to fix.
     
    Budget36 likes this.
  18. loudbang likes this.
  19. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 8,990

    anthony myrick
    Member

  20. Of course they are different formulas....they have to be to meet the VOC rules. Low VOC is a REGULATORY thing, imposed by the EPA for certain areas.
    I checked my PPG basecoat.....non low VOC. Reducers and catalyst? Low VOC. Never even knew it was different. Sprayed some the other day. Unless the label or MDS says DO NOT MIX.................SHOOT IT!
     
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  21. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 8,990

    anthony myrick
    Member

    VOC can also be attributed with the mixing ratio.
    The msds won’t list that. The msds could be compared between the reducers and hardeners.
    Some low VOC use less reducer.
    I use generic reducers to save $ at school. No issues. We use the correct reducers for non practice panels.
    What is the mixing ratio for non VOC compared to the VOC compliant?
    But I understand getting this close to finishing and not wanting to screw up even though I’m with the above post.
     
  22. Bit the bullet and ordered the VOC basecoat. Summit cut me a deal on the gallon of basecoat. For the additional cost of 120 bucks it didn't make sense to me given my situation to take any chances that something might go wrong.
    Thanks to all for the input. We should be spraying the car late next week.
     
    loudbang, RMR&C and reagen like this.
  23. Hollywood-East
    Joined: Mar 13, 2008
    Posts: 1,606

    Hollywood-East
    Member

    Soo... The million dollar question, Ya gonna do a spray out so Will all know?
     
  24. I will be posting the process and how it goes for sure both here and on my build thread.
     
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  25. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 8,990

    anthony myrick
    Member

    Please keep us posted. I’m sure several would be interested in the results.
    I’m sure several here don’t have access to a decent paint store.
     
  26. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,308

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    @RMR&C is right. V.O.C. is a mandatory listing for Volitile Organic Compounds. The end.

    Compliance is another thing, if they say "...no it isn't the same because..." it's because in the land of stopping billion dollar highway projects for a spider in a drain pipe they now count EVERYTHING. Gasoline has a VOC rating. Turpentine, mineral spirits, rattle can paints too.

    But what does it mean to the DIY guy? It means one is gonna stink more than the other cuz it has more solvent or less or similar or blah-blah-blah. I'm just giving y'all 50 years of perspective here. No skin in the game. I have not looked lately, but is there yet a full on waterbourne 2K primer or clear yet? Epoxy? Sealers? No? Wow, then how much (here it comes again) VOC is saved because we changed the least volume product in a refinish to water base? Gotta stop, might get too political by some judgements but holy nut sack.

    Once you grasp what the terminology is this stuff is easier to navigate. And I hate to say it but this is what YOU PAY FOR with the $$$$ saved by using mail order refinish materials. I know everybody can't go to their favorite auto refinish place, and some don't even allow the general public into the store. It's also why I never paint on a weekend. Shit happens and I might need an emergency visit to save a job. Want more perspective? If you're an old bastid like me you'll note that the non-compliant stuff is most likely to "act" like what you're used to.

    Last but not least, ask your painter pals about adding just a few oz of hardener to your ready-to-spray basecoats. I use PPG DX 57. about a 1/2 cap to a full gun ready-to-spray. "Why Jocko, what the fuck...?" What it does is down the road. It stops the basecoat from lifting or swelling if there's ever a spot repair later, or even during the build process. You can get away without it by dry spray and such, but that little insurance policy pays back nice if you ever need it. Just a tip from yer ol uncle HIGHLANDER. Enjoy the challenge, just remember you're painting a car not launching a space shuttle.
     
  27. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 7,252

    BJR
    Member

    I have mixed low VOC with other products with no problems. I would use it and paint the car. Just wear a good mask that works for the products you are spraying. You are looking for a solution when there is no problem.
     
    427 sleeper likes this.
  28. Well a surprise along the way. Seems the paint I ordered is on back order for at least 2 weeks. Of course the CS rep didn't advise me of this. After the purchase I received an email from "the system" stating that fact. I considered switching to black cherry pearl but couldn't convince my self that was the right choice. In the meantime I called Kirker paint to see if I could find a go around. Learned that Kirker only makes national rule base coat for Summit and that the VOC line is provided by another company which he was not willing to divulge. Ah the old trade secret thing! I called Sherwin Williams next where I had a previous contact and spoke with an individual about sourcing VOC. He stated that his department did not handle the VOC line that they provide to Summit. So there you have the answer in a round about way. None of this is helping me out but it keeps me busy. HA! What I did learn is that it is a pigment shipping problem. Both companies said they have been fighting terrible delivery issues for months. Kirker said that recently they could not make any blues followed by yellows this week. Guess all the pigment is setting off shore.
    At 7pm last night I got an email from Summit stating my black paint has been shipped from KY. If UPS does it 's job I should see it Friday. We may spray it out on Sat/Sun.
    Let you know how that goes.
     
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  29. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,308

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    For context:

    https://www.epa.gov/indoor-air-quality-iaq/what-are-volatile-organic-compounds-vocs

    In our game you'll have low, no, compliant, non-compliant. What does it mean? Unless your dedicated to saving the spotted owl or Canadian lynx or snails or whatever it means NOTHING. Our worries should be whether or not we can use waterbourne properly. I'm in MI so we have little to no worries but the listings are because the law says producers have to state the level of VOCs in the stuff. So, (pulling a number out of my ass) if you have a 2.4 VOC base color and a 3.6 VOC clear SHOOT IT and don't look back. One will stink more than the other. And the advice of respirators? HEED THE WARNINGS. At any time anyone can become sensitized to this shit and at best you'll get really sick, at worst you'll suffocate and die with no possible way to save you. No, I'm absolutely NOT exaggerating. I will add this, GET OUT OF THE AREA BETWEEN COATS/APPLICATIONS. It's not just your breathing it's also the environment of fumes and toxins. Don't stand and admire your work too long, get outta there and ventilate both the area AND YOU. Even the product curing on the car spits toxins so again, GET OUT, let it be, let it flash, let some fresh air into your lungs. We seldom to never address that aspect so there, I did. Complicated? Fuck no just be logical and ventilate. A good respirator is about $25. Keep it wrapped up and it's good for a few weeks. I like the Gersons. Have fun...
     
  30. KenC
    Joined: Sep 14, 2006
    Posts: 668

    KenC
    Member

    [QUOTE

    A good respirator is about $25. Keep it wrapped up and it's good for a few weeks. I like the Gersons. Have fun...[/QUOTE]
    On that last item : I keep mine in a baggie inside the shop fridge. Cool slows all reactions and the fridge is airtight
     
    oldcootnco and 427 sleeper like this.

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