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Paint Lamination in factory paint

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Straight Eight, Oct 6, 2010.

  1. Straight Eight
    Joined: Dec 22, 2006
    Posts: 29

    Straight Eight
    Member
    from Howell, Mi

    Anybody had experience with General Motors Factory paint that de-laminates? I have a dark blue metalic pearl paint that is factory paint and delaminating from hood, one fender, roof, and trunk.
    Can just the clear be sanded, and new clear applied? Do we gotta "take it off, take it all off" ? What was the cause, and did the factory offer any fixes free of charge? I have a 40,000 mile 98 that has been garage kept its whole life.:confused:
     
  2. BulldawgMusclecars
    Joined: Jul 15, 2010
    Posts: 508

    BulldawgMusclecars
    Member

    I had a daily that did that once (well, the then-wife's daily). I considered doing what you said, but wound up sanding the clear off, spot priming, and took it to Maaco for a repaint. I did all the prep, so it looked good, and the investment was minimal. I would at the very least take off all the clear, but considering clear is usually the most expensive part, it wouldn't be too much more to base it first to avoid any issues.
     
  3. 54fierro
    Joined: Jul 6, 2006
    Posts: 493

    54fierro
    Member
    from san diego

    check with the dealership first or do a search online.

    I had a buddy whose toyota pick up had faded bad but only the bed. The dealer had the bed repainted for free even though it was a few years old. It was something about the cabs being painted in Japan and the beds here, it didnt quite work out.

    Hopefully theyll take care of you. Its worth a shot. Cesar
     
  4. MickeyD
    Joined: Feb 8, 2009
    Posts: 45

    MickeyD
    Member

    I have a little Cadillac Allante roadster that's doing the same thing.
    I just bought some very fine wet or dry emory
    paper to see if it will take the clear off.
    Wonder what "base it first to avoid any issues " means?
    Is that some kind of huffer's lingo?
     

  5. brucer
    Joined: Jun 5, 2008
    Posts: 332

    brucer
    Member
    from western ky

    my 94 camaro has the peels... i'm going to scuff,wetsand, blend with color and reclear the panels.
     
  6. SlowandLow63
    Joined: Sep 18, 2004
    Posts: 5,958

    SlowandLow63
    Member
    from Central NJ

    GM especially, and Chrysler were experimenting in the mid 90s with some "environmentally safe" clear coats. What you're describing is how it turned out. Thats why you see so many mid 90s cars with peeling clear coats. I wasn't aware that it went on until 98, but thats my guess.

    The best way would be to knock off all the clear, spot the base back in where it has for sure seen better says (I would even go as far to rebase the entire car) and reclear.
     
  7. Jagman
    Joined: Mar 25, 2010
    Posts: 345

    Jagman
    Member

    The base color coat under the clear is really thin, and by the time you sand all the clear off you'll be thru it too. I'm thinking you'll be repainting at least the panel affected - base and clearcoat.
     
  8. BulldawgMusclecars
    Joined: Jul 15, 2010
    Posts: 508

    BulldawgMusclecars
    Member

    What I mean that if I were going to try to fix the paint issue, I would take it down to at least the original base, spray a couple new color coats, and then clear it.
     
  9. GM tradition since the late 80's. C/C breakdown from ultraviolet rays of the sun. Several paint companies blamed the problem on to high a bake temp in the drying cycle which cut the protection of the u/v screener, others a mixing of suppliers for primer ,sealer , basecoat and c/c which didn't crosslink correctly between brands.

    Recommended fix remove all base and clear down to factory primer or bare metal (If your ambitious and really want to fix correctly) and refinish. Probably out of any warrantee help from GM.
     
  10. cheveey57
    Joined: Mar 11, 2010
    Posts: 676

    cheveey57
    Member

    Years ago they re-sprayed my parents 88 Cutlass. I'm sure the deal is long over.
     
  11. kenseth17
    Joined: Aug 16, 2005
    Posts: 69

    kenseth17
    Member

    I worked in a ford dealership in the early 90's, and all of the big 3 had delamination problems around that time. If I can remember right there were stricter epa regulations in effect towards the late 80's and manufacturers began using a new e coat, and to save money they skipped a primer step normally used over the ecoat (which was supposedly really sensitive to uv's). The paint would peel right down to the primer and some colors would be affected more then others. GM was paying warrenty repair to take down to the primer. Working at a ford dealer, they were paying to take to metal.

    I thought they had things pretty well straightened out by the late 90's. If its just the clear peeling off, then the clear is just shot after that amount of time, or like mentioned could be not enough mil thickness for proper uv protection. Anyways, if the clear is peeled and base has been exposed, its shot, and you can't just reclear. And even if you could, a metallic or pearl, once you sanded off the clear into the base, the metallic be effected, and you would end up with a blotchy finish if you just recleared.

    At minimum you should sand the clear off or however far to get to a sound base, and repaint.

    I disagree with base being cheaper then clear, Clear is often pretty cheap compared to base, specially when your dealing with colors with a lot of pearl or reds and yellows. But really depends on the color (what price code its in), how that particular color happens to cover, and how efficient the gun is its applied with. You usually use less base then clear as you only spray to coverage is achieved, and it is usually reduced more then most clearcoats.
     
  12. 6-71
    Joined: Sep 15, 2005
    Posts: 542

    6-71
    Member

    My father in law bought a dodge omni 1n 1988,less than 2 years later the paint started"delaminating". I took it to work and blasted most of the factory finish down to the primer with a hot water pressure washer. The paint came off in sheets.I sanded the rest and sprayed it in acrylic enamel.
     
  13. CharlieLed
    Joined: Feb 21, 2003
    Posts: 2,463

    CharlieLed
    Member

    It might be BS but I had heard that there was an issue with the formulation of the blue basecoats that caused the clear coat to peel off. It might just be that since I heard that that I have noticed that most of the cars that I have seen that are peeling are in fact blue. Anybody else hear that story?
     
  14. SlowandLow63
    Joined: Sep 18, 2004
    Posts: 5,958

    SlowandLow63
    Member
    from Central NJ

    My mother's minivan was chracoal blueish... :confused:
     
  15. Zestar Corporation
    Joined: Oct 6, 2010
    Posts: 1

    Zestar Corporation
    Member
    from Michigan

    Automotive painting is a science.

    A typical finish consists of four layers:
    1) electrocoat - provides corrosion protection
    2) primer - protects electrocoat, stone chip resistance, adhesion
    between basecoat and electrocoat
    3) basecoat - provides color to the vehicle
    4) clearcoat - sunlight protection, scratch resistance, gloss
    and appearance properties

    Film thickness is a criteria used by the auto industry to ensure durability.

    Each of the 4 layers must be at the proper film thickness specification.

    If any of the individual layers is below specification. The vehicle would
    be considered a factory paint defect.

    A visible manifestation of low film thickness is paint peeling, body rusting and stone chipping.


    Note: Thick Paint Thickness will result in cracking.

    Since the mid 1990s the auto industry while retaining ownership of the paint facilities have outsourced
    the process and quality responsibilities to multiple paint suppliers.

    Outsourcing in this application is defined as a process in which a company
    assigns its in-house operations to a third party.

    Specifics on automotive paint suppliers roles within the facilities may be found in textbooks published
    both in Europe and America. The most recent textbook being released in 2008.

    The paint suppliers actively market and advertise their outsourcing expertise with terms such as
    "Cost Per Unit" or "Pay As Painted" supplier programs. Outsourcing [Cost Per Unit] programs are
    common throughout Europe and America within the auto industry.

    Not all vehicle flaws are associated with the paint itself, vehicle design and weathering will
    impact the vehicle's finish.

    It is our opinion that the automaker, auto dealer and consumer should not receive a vehicle painted
    below the automaker's film thickness specifications of any of the four layers that comprise a vehicle's finish.

    We have analyzed the film thickness data of over 11,000 vehicles and
    have found that the measurements are below the automakers' specifications.

    Low film thickness will cause paint failures.

    Investigation summarized in press releases:
    Billions Discovered for Recovery by Automakers
    and
    New Books Reveal Vehicle Paint Quality Flaws Associated with Outsourcing

    A quick internet search for the following:

    Toyota Paint Problems, Toyota Paint Peeling
    Ford Paint Problems, Ford Paint Peeling
    GM Paint Problems, GM Paint Peeling
    Chrysler Paint Problems, Chrysler Paint Peeling
    Honda Paint Problems, Honda Paint Peeling
    Nissan Paint Problems, Nissan Paint Peeling

    will return results back in the millions.

    Public Interest best served by a "Truth in Finish Disclosure"
    with the purchase of any vehicle.

    The automakers trust their suppliers.

    Automakers, auto dealers and consumers should receive a finish painted to their specifications....

    We released two books on this subject in 2009 titled:
    MAKING IT RIGHT
    Why your Car Payments
    are lasting longer than your
    FACTORY PAINT JOB
    -Basic Guide
    -Technical Guide
    http://www.forewordreviews.com/revi...nger-than-your-factory-paint-job-basic-guide/

    http://www.bookideas.com/reviews/index.cfm?fuseaction=displayReview&id=5605
     
  16. kustombuilder
    Joined: Sep 18, 2002
    Posts: 7,750

    kustombuilder
    Member
    from Novi, MI



    What he said!
     
  17. pimpin paint
    Joined: May 31, 2005
    Posts: 4,937

    pimpin paint
    Member
    from so cal

    Hey,

    Between 1985 and 1995 I made good money, and not just from the "Big Three", BMW & Mercedes had problems with their finishes. The fix was all the same, REMOVAL of all the finish to bare metal, and a complete reshoot of the primer, sealer, base and clear. Most repair costs were covered by factory if the vehicle was under five years.
    Yeah, blues and silvers were hard hit, but white and red was a problem, too.

    " I liked the old millennium better ''
     
  18. vtx1800
    Joined: Oct 4, 2009
    Posts: 1,709

    vtx1800
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Back in the early 80's we painted my 38 Chevrolet in GM Colors, Silver Gray body and Charcoal Gray fenders, the Silver Gray started popping (delaminating) in a couple of years, the Charcoal Gray paint is still in decent shape after 25 years (other than scratches, dents and other abrasions). Evidently the sun wasn’t Silver Gray’s friend.
     
  19. You guys will like this. My '91 Suburban has this problem, the clearcoat is peeled off on the top of the hood and roof. I had to add some pictures to my photo book one day and did it on the hood of the truck, and all I had was some of the clear sealing tape I use normally for packing the crap I sell on eBay. So in the process I'd cut pieces and stick them to the hood so I could grab and go.

    Anyhow, sticking that tape to the hood and pulling it up.. would pull the clearcoat right off with it. Made the tape no good, too. I think I later found even plain old scotch tape would do it, as well. So it might be worth a shot on others. It's certainly easier than sanding it off -

    My sister had a '99 Sable and the white paint delaminated off the primer on that car, so it's a problem for every make I think.
     
  20. FLATROCKER
    Joined: Jun 26, 2007
    Posts: 89

    FLATROCKER
    Member
    from nw ohio

    I have repaired many delams from gm and ford and a few dodges.in the 80's and up into the ninetys. To do it right it should be stripped to metal. These vehicles had very little pimer/ e coat and affected most colors but was more on higher mettallic lighter colors like blue and silver. I have even done several white and red vehicles and a few black. Dont skimp on products or steps to do it right. If not done properly , yes you could even cause your own delamination.
     

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