Register now to get rid of these ads!

Paint Experts-Help Me!

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by usmile4, Aug 29, 2012.

  1. usmile4
    Joined: Jul 28, 2005
    Posts: 689

    usmile4
    Member

    Some background: I used Evercoat 2274 Acrylic High Build primer on my 51. I blocked it and sanded the final coat. My son's friend shot Deltron 2000 base and Omni MC161 clear. Before he shot the color he used something he called Bulldog. We let it set for a couple of weeks and then started wet sanding. Things were going pretty good with the exception of a couple of runs that went right to primer with the first pass of wet sanding. Then one night while I was sleeping, disaster struck in the form of a piece of metal falling into one of the rear quarters causing a big deep scratch.

    So we decided to reshoot the quarter. I took the quarter down with 500 and while I was at it fixed a few low spots and runs. One place needed a little spot primer and after a final sanding and tack cloth we started painting. The paint was going on real nice when we noticed that any place that the original primer was showing through the color, the paint was reacting and we were getting wrinkles. Where the color or new spot primer was, the new paint was going on fine.

    First of all since I know nothing of painting, explain to me what is happening? Why the reaction with the old primer now but not the first time we painted?

    Secondly, I have taken off the second application of paint and used the spot primer so none of the original primer is showing through. Do I need to do anything else to guard that I get a good paint job this time around?

    Thanks for your help? Bill
     
  2. J'st Wandering
    Joined: Jan 28, 2004
    Posts: 1,772

    J'st Wandering
    Member

    I am sure others will help you out but here is my two cents.

    The base coat was not shot with a hardener, right? The respray is reacting with the base coat. You have an application window of time that you can respray to where the paint will not lift the old paint or you wait a long period of time and you will be o.k.

    Solution I would try. Put on an epoxy sealer on the areas that are going to lift. Put it on dry and light. That should seal the old paint. I would give the sealer time to dry but stay in the time window that the tech sheet gives you for your base coat.

    I have done the same as what you have done. I now put a hardener in the paint to help avoid the problem.

    Regarding the runs. Check into using a razor blade to remove the runs. You will be able to clean up the runs and not damage your paint. That is if the runs are in the clear. If in the base coat, fix the problem before the clear coat.

    Good luck.

    Neal
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2012
  3. usmile4
    Joined: Jul 28, 2005
    Posts: 689

    usmile4
    Member

    Color did not have a hardener but the clear did. The respray is not reacting with the paint...just where it has been sanded through to the primer. In fact the respray over the color looks very nice...almost better than first shoot!
     
  4. SlickRick
    Joined: Aug 23, 2004
    Posts: 16

    SlickRick
    Member

    All right. this is my solution to your problem. The lifting is gonna be almost impossible to stop. this is gonna sound stupid but trust me I am a professional. Once you start lifting, you don't want to compound your problem anymore than you have to. Knock down your area where it is lifting with 320-400 wet dry, finish with 600. Now re-clear your panel, YES, re-clear it, the whole panel. DO NOT put anything else on it, just CLEAR. Clear is the best way to trap the lifting problem. You are saturating the panel with to much solvent and it is going right to the bottom and lifting everything else up. The clear acts as a barrier and won't let the solvent all the way down to your problem area. You might want to try a faster solvent as well. The reducer might be hanging out to long and soaking in. If you are using OMNI reducer try MR 185/186. 185 is fastest. Let the panel sit overnight and then, you can sand it down with 600 and start over with the sealer, paint, clear. Hope this helps.
     

  5. Schmidy
    Joined: Mar 1, 2011
    Posts: 58

    Schmidy
    Member
    from Minnesota

    What is the product called Bulldog and why did he use it? Also do you have any quality pics? Is the lifting happening at the edges or the whole spot?
     
  6. Anarchy
    Joined: Jun 22, 2011
    Posts: 21

    Anarchy
    Member
    from Idaho

    SlickRick is correct, only thing I would add is to be very careful not to sand through the clear...
     
  7. Bulldog is an adhesion promoter.
     
  8. usmile4
    Joined: Jul 28, 2005
    Posts: 689

    usmile4
    Member

    I have taken the area down with 400 and used the spot primer wherever the original primer is showing through. So now I should wet sand with 600 and then clear. Let it sit overnight (what happens if I let it sit longer?) Then sand with 600-wet or dry and just scuff? Then use a sealer (what brand, number, etc?) then paint and clear.
     
  9. usmile4
    Joined: Jul 28, 2005
    Posts: 689

    usmile4
    Member

    The lifting is the whole spot any place the color is down to the primer.
     
  10. Shagginwagon64
    Joined: Apr 25, 2012
    Posts: 26

    Shagginwagon64
    Member
    from Wichita ks

    The problem is the primer u shot is a lacquer primer and is not designed to be used with today's urethane and polyester base coats. The solvents are way too harsh for lacquer primers. Bulldog is designed to be used on non primed plastic and composite surfaces only. I highly doubt the bulldog is causing any problem in this situation , it was just a wasted step. Slickrick is KOwrekt. Clear it. And don't use lacquer primer anymore. It's so inferior to todays technology.
     
  11. Shagginwagon64
    Joined: Apr 25, 2012
    Posts: 26

    Shagginwagon64
    Member
    from Wichita ks

    I recommend sealer from nason. It's cheap and works great. P/n 421-19. But u shouldn't have to seal if u finish in fine enough grit of sand paper. 500 or finer for metallic is fine enough u won't need sealer.
     
  12. usmile4
    Joined: Jul 28, 2005
    Posts: 689

    usmile4
    Member

    So after I clear it, give it a once over with 600 (wet or dry?) and then paint and clear.
     
  13. . we noticed that any place that the original primer was showing through the color, the paint was reacting and we were getting wrinkles. Where the color or new spot primer was, the new paint was going on fine.

    The solvents are reacting with the first base coat. This is happening between the original primer and the first coat of clear.

    Or .....

    During your rework process something contaminated and soaked into the original primer.

    Seams to me that since your newly spot primed places are fine that's not a problem or concern.

    A sealer over the places that hit original primer should help and I'd just do the whole panel at this point. If its contaminated and soaked in the sealer may or may not help.
     
  14. Boryca
    Joined: Jul 18, 2011
    Posts: 695

    Boryca
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Detroit

    I found another way to fix this as well, as I had the issue a couple times and had the misfortune/opportunity to experiment. Clearing the area is the best way to go by far, but if you're up for different options you can see what you like. I found that sanding the area with higher grit sandpaper, in the range of 800-1000 until all other sanding marks are removed - basically as smooth as you can get it with 1000.

    Then you can shoot it again, and so long as you have it uniformly sanded, it won't lift. It's more work than the clear method, but I have liked the results better myself.

    Mike
     
  15. Shagginwagon64
    Joined: Apr 25, 2012
    Posts: 26

    Shagginwagon64
    Member
    from Wichita ks

    Yes usmile4. After u clear it simply let it dry , sand with some 500 or 600 sandpaper and spray it as if you never had a problem. Easy ( time consuming) fix. But for future reference, stay away from that laquer primer. Nothing but headaches. Lol
     
  16. usmile4
    Joined: Jul 28, 2005
    Posts: 689

    usmile4
    Member

    Today I sprayed my parts with clear as suggested. Unfortunately with my lack of skills I got a couple of runs in the clear. I was cautioned not to sand through the clear when I do the 500 tomorrow before painting color. What is the best way to take care of those runs before doing the color?
     
  17. J'st Wandering
    Joined: Jan 28, 2004
    Posts: 1,772

    J'st Wandering
    Member

    Cut the runs down with a razor blade. Hold the new razor blade at a right angle to the surface and drag it along the run. Keep on making passes with the blade until the run is the same level as the paint around it. Then sand. Remember that the paint will be the thinnest right next to the run. This works better for me than just sanding out the run.

    Neal
     
  18. Incarnation
    Joined: Oct 29, 2010
    Posts: 40

    Incarnation
    Member

    Sounds about right, but remember you should put a heat lamp on that panel and pray all the solvents get out before you seal it, or it's going to blister later.
     
  19. autobodyed
    Joined: Mar 5, 2008
    Posts: 1,943

    autobodyed
    Member
    from shelton ct

    heres my 0.02. first of all, if you don't have an oven to bake that clear, you should really let that clear harden before you try to wet sand it. it'll just ball up on you and clog your paper, plus you'll scratch the shit out of it, second, if you try to sand those runs and the clear is still soft, you'll tear it down to the base, razor blade method works great, third, i would sand it with a finer paper 800 or 1000, so you don't have to put a lot of paint on it to bury your sanding scratches and the possibilities of lifting the fresh clear with the basecoat. i know everybody has a different way of repairing problems that arise from bodywork and paint, and ive certainly have used the clearing method, only because i have an oven, and could reshoot a car over in about an hour after baking. but i think you could have saved yourself alot of time by just buying a qrt. of either epoxy or 2 part primer and just dusted a couple of light to medium coats over your problem areas. a light sanding and a couple coats of color would have corrected the lifting problem. i just think your putting too much material on the car and in the long run could end up biting you in the ass. i would put that car out in the sun and let the car gas out for a couple of days so your not chasing your tail.
     
  20. I am no painter so what is lifting and could some post a picture so I can see what you at talking about Thanks.
     
  21. Razor blade shave like explained above.
    Extremely careful sanding,think surgery.
    while sanding the run, remember the paint is thinnest right next to it. If you have the clear with runs on top of the old clear you'll be OK. If your runs are near the lifting repairs you are walking a tight rope, be careful or you'll be doing it again.

    I try to sand runs with a small block. Like a popsicle stick,small rubber squeegees about 1/2 a business card.
     
  22. demonsix
    Joined: Dec 31, 2011
    Posts: 85

    demonsix
    Member

  23. mashed
    Joined: Oct 15, 2011
    Posts: 1,474

    mashed
    Member
    from 4077th


    [​IMG]
     
  24. ReposGarage
    Joined: Mar 10, 2007
    Posts: 41

    ReposGarage
    Member
    from denton tx.

    im sure its already been said in this post but why would you even use an acrylic or laquer primer with todays products such as 2k or 2 part primers meaning having a activator or hardener being around .........i mean if you dont have some sort of a problem while spraying them youll surely have one later when the products go to shrinking back and showing all the imperfections, because there single part and not hardened like a topcoat.....just my 2 cents
     
  25. Thanks mashed, I through that was what people called orange peeling Now I know what lifting is.
     
  26. demonsix
    Joined: Dec 31, 2011
    Posts: 85

    demonsix
    Member

    This is orange peel
    ImageUploadedByTJJ1346972642.187293.jpg


    Posted from the TJJ App for iPhone & iPad
     
  27. midwestford
    Joined: Sep 19, 2011
    Posts: 14

    midwestford
    Member
    from Michigan

    orange peeling is a rough texture left behind to dry on the surface from many different operator or mechanical errors such as air pressure or speed. Lifting is when the layers of the paint process chemically seperate causing a bonding or adhesion concern between the affected layers. Hope that helps a little? They are two different things.
     
  28. usmile4
    Joined: Jul 28, 2005
    Posts: 689

    usmile4
    Member

    Well if you have seen any of my other posts you will notice that I am a complete novice at this car building process. I learn as I go and ask questions when I have problems or don't know what I'm doing which is most of the time. So when it came time for priming, I went to my local auto paint supply house and told them what I was working on. They sold me the primer and told me how to spray it on.
     
  29. usmile4
    Joined: Jul 28, 2005
    Posts: 689

    usmile4
    Member

    In the suggestions I got to my original post, I thought I was to clear it, let it sit overnight, scuff it with 600 and then shoot color. Now I'm reading let it bake for two days, etc. If I'm to do epoxy or 2 part primer, what should I ask for at the paint supply house given the Deltron 2000 and the Omni clear that I'm using?
     

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2021 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.