The Jalopy Journal
Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by F&J, Dec 5, 2011.
Congrats Frank.........it sounds great, now stand back and take a break. Tomorrow is another day.
Well Walt, tomorrow is here ... and I am now wondering about the heating at 1800 rpm's. There is a baffle in the top rad tank, so I can't see much, but as the heat builds, I start getting bubbles and rusty foam flowing out..
I will get mufflers on first, then try to find out what's up. Too much going on yesterday to get a handle on it yet.
Oh, oh, do a compression test. Sounds like it might be a head gasket.
I was working on some lake plugs when Buster showed up today, so we put it outside to check it out a bit. It does have bubbles and I am pretty sure it would puke if I let it.
One thing I did notice, is that if you set the idle a bit higher to maybe 1000-1100 it almost sounds like it's laboring while parked. I need to pull #1 plug and verify the TDC mark.
Got some other ideas as well. This engine did not do this a couple weeks ago before the crankshaft deal; I ran it for 45 minutes steady in the warm shop with no issues. It's a lot colder outside and now it heats.. I did have the rocker shafts off, so that is the top 4 headbolts.
I did drive it around a bit...and Buster said it must ride nice, because he was watching the suspenion working. It does ride nice. He won't drive it yet; he said he will wait till I dial it in more. I will get his butt in there soon. He has a commercial digital exhaust bender at his #2 son's shop, so we are waiting to get hooked up with him.
The rocker shaft deal makes me lean that way even more. All things considered, a head gasket isnt too bad.
Geoge; I'm not sure yet. I just put the car back in after it sat out all afternoon. I do have the steel wool back in the lakes, and when I got the car in the shop just now, there is condensation coming out both banks. I'll pull the plugs in the AM and look in each bore. Not worried...yet
Ok, this morning I was mounting one of the Edmunds aircleaners and noticed the slightly domed circular shape would be a good idea to copy for lake plugs..
First pic, a big chunk of 1/2" thick aluminum angle. I cut off a piece in the saw, and chucked it up. I did the doming before doing the final parting cut.
Then flipped it backwards to cut a groove to match the ID and OD of the lake pipe/ That groove will get thin asbestos cord for wood stoves from the hardware store.
I don't have a Bridgeport, so I counterbored the 2 mounting holes on the horizontal milling machine. There will be thin, soft copper gaskets under the acorn nuts to seal them.
as soon as I fix my mig, I will weld 2 studs in each lake for the plugs.
Here. One of these in the middle. WAY cooler than two acorn nuts. Easier to open too...
Or if you want something with some '30s Indy car panache...
And you wont find either of these in a So-Cal catalog.
I am "so over" the lake caps.........
I am sitting thinking about the motor again.. Maybe sneak the pushrods out, and pressure test each cylinder? or...I could do the old way by having someone hold brake while on each TDC in low grear, then air it up, but that would not show a crack halfway down the bore.
I'll do the timing mark verification first, then keep going to other tests first.
I did two runs up to the end of the driveway...and was up to 2nd gear. The second trip I was going to buzz it up the road to my other driveway, but a car was coming, so I wussed out.
Frank the car looks and sounds great. the blue color, on the wheels in the picture you posted, looks like the color of a '41 cadillac i worked on a few years back.
Thanks for the color info, I will check that out at TPC Global Auto Color Library.. I hope they show a chip.
I did not want to do this post, due to it being way too long, too boring, but a couple of Rocket guys might want to know what's up with the motor...
Last night I drove it in, after it sat out 4 hours. When it was inside I noticed water at both lakes that have steel wool packed in. I figured condensation..
So this AM, I pulled the plugs to look in the bores for standing water and look at plugs. No water, no odd plug standing out differently, but the right bank was slightly cleaner porcelains...slightly. BTW, the 4 idle mixture screws have good sensivity, and carbs are idle synch'd. The idle does not raise if either carb is slightly choked.
Next test was TDC timing mark check, and it passed...the damper has not moved
Next test I should have done hot; I put each cyl at TDC and aired up with 130psi. I also has an extension on the rad filler neck so I can see any trace of bubbles in standing water. Nothing. That proves nothing except to say there are no massive cracks or huge headgasket problems.. kind of a waste of time.
Next I ran it outside and it still sounds labored, so I advanced it maybe 8* from where it was, going just by the 303 timing scale on the dist. The motor "woke up" and half of the nasty lope is gone. My opinion is that it dropped the temp quite a bit.
I had just started driving it back and forth from way out back, up to the road, and then my friend showed up with a digital heatgun. He spent 15 minutes checking every possible place on every piece.
Results: Face & tanks of the radiator shows the rad and fan are working fine. The highest temp was at the cast iron thermo housing, a bit over 200. The heatgun won't read right on polished aluminum like the front water crossover. The senders and fittings on the front cross were much lower. He did pick up that the right bank header outlets ran higher than the left...just like the plugs indicated. No odd readings anyplace on the block, sides, heads, etc.
He wanted to run it with one sparkplug out, one at a time, to see if the slight bubbles would stop. I did not want to listen to all the racket, so I tried to crank it with the ign off...it actually tried to start, so it was a tad bit hot, but not boiling.
So we let it sit 10 minutes, then fired it to see if bubbles started instantly. They did not, it took a few minutes. Doubtful it's a headgasket or crack IMO; I would think it should bubble almost instantly.
I still think it's a hot spot someplace, due to rust blockage. I say that because even though I removed and cleaned the block petcocks and passages when the crank was being replaced, the drains still don't drain good. Tonight I was doing the muffler-to-header pipe fabs, and I needed to pull the headers off, which means you need to drain water so the manifolds bolts don't pour water out as you remove them. I could not get the drains to work until I hit them each about 30 times with air; each time getting more rust flakes, then plugged again. Both sides drain now, but I'll flush it all later, running, with petcock fittings removed.
Anyways, it's not puking when running or at shutdown; I would not hesitate to run it on the road if I had plates, just to test it.
I appreciate you posting it, for exactly that reason. It may be something that I run into in the future, or it may not. But if I do, I have a point of reference. Thanks Frank.
What if there was a hair-line crack somewhere in the intake manifold that only opened up when the engine was warm or hot? Could that be admitting water and/or air which changes the air/fuel ratio on four of your cylinders?
What is the possibility of running an ordinary cooling system pressure test, to see if a subtle leak is causing your problem?
Finally, what would be the matter with running your car with no radiator pressure cap for awhile on the street, just to see if trapped air deep in the block still needs to finish working its way out?
Wish I could help more, but at least these steps are easy to try. Good luck!!
mr50s; The radiator is a non-pressurized stock 32 4 cyl. Yes I should do some thinking on the right side diagnosis, but I just finished the muffler on the left side, and will finish the other side now.
On trapped air, my buddy said to bleed the 2 rear head block-off plates just to be sure. I can do that by loosening one bolt per head. These plates just cover the symetrical water port that is also on both ends of the head, the fronts being used for the water cross-over. I never heard about needing to bleed there, but I will.
then, drive it as much as I can around here over the weekend after flushing the block a long time...then see what does what.
any other ideas, just post them up. It's not boiling over, just has some bubbles...or a hot spot
Frank bleed it by the rear and level the radiator with fluid. Watch it and see if over time it goes down. my .02
I finished the mufflers install early this afternoon. I used the last two of the old bullet mufflers I bought at Pease's. These are not see-through, and they sound great.
So, I ran it around the lot a couple of minutes after flushing the block. I filled it to the top twice and pulled one petcock out at a time to get some good flushing power. Then I drove it around the lot just a bit, because my friend dropped off a SW mech temp gauge to try to tell something.
My son showed up and this is the first time he heard it run. I told him I wanted to go in for the day and have a coffee, and tomorrow I'd get more gas to run it around a long, long time. He said "I have gas, want me to drive it?" I said sure, but I'm going in the house. I saw him back up to the top of the driveway a few times, but then did not see him for a long while....he told me later he was out on his quad trails to see if it would heat on the hills Well, he said there was no body flex or door rattles He said the temps never went over 175 lugging..and it did not overflow at hot shutdown either.
I should have guessed he'd be bored with the driveway
Anyways, the OT pic is what he loves doing,...and I'm glad the hot rod does not have a winch..he,he
So, I did want him to drive this car to get his butt interested in fixing up our 69 Dart conv, factory 4 speed, which now has a 340 6-pack...well, I think it worked because he just came in to say he parked the 32 in the shop and just fired up the Dart maybe there is hope for him yet
Now I have mufflers, I hear an exhaust spit on the drivers header. I don't want to use thick white gaskets, so I need to machine the header flanges at the ports.
I want to weld a bead around each port which will need to be made flat, but I needed to see if there was any way to set the header up on the horizontal miller. I tried many combinations to try to get close enough to the cutter. Horizontal millers don't have much bed sideways travel, so I will need to move the fixture in the bed T slots to reach the end ports.
The first pic shows making an adaper plate made from aluminum angle. I needed to cut a wide notch for the center port tubes; did the 2 easy cuts on the saw, then used the miller to knock the piece out.
I finally got it set up so I can reach all the ports...but, because my headers now have the muffler connector welded solid, that pipe hits the bench. That can't be moved, so I need to rotate the miller 70 degrees away from the bench. Now I can weld the beads, move the machine and then see how it goes.
I was supposed to take it easy and make valve cover gaskets today... This motor has lots of oil to the rockers, so it's been leaking without gaskets.
I really dig the caps and beauty rings on the narrow wheels with the blackwalls. Do not change that!
i flatten exhaust manifolds with my stationary belt sander, not perfect, but it always stops the leak.
I won't change it The rears are almost new wide whites turned inside out...because I sold my front Firestone whites last spring when I could not find whites for the rear ....sure enough found the rears a couple months ago. Too expensive to buy new front whites. And the car would want 2" whites, not the huge ones.
I don't have a sander, and I am not good with certain things... and I love running this machine; it's so quiet with a huge 3 phase and silent transmission. Just sounds so nice and high quality.
Well, I welded the ports, then milled the center first because that one should show more weld all the way around after machining. Got that done, then never touched the height of the cutter, so the rest would be on the same plane. I think I got it right, as the front port should have shown just what it looks like now...going by where that gasket was sooting up.
I thought a few things would go real wrong, like snapping the cutter, or having the clamps get loose, but it went real good. I'll put it on in the AM. I am using some satin black, real thin, burnproof gasket paper...maybe .008 or so? It did not burn through where the bad leaks were, so I wish I could recall where I got it years ago. I have more than enough, but I'd like to get more.
X2, but I think I already said that when I pmed you. But yea, they look damn good.
If you havent seen this yet enjoy. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=675234
Now I have quiet exhaust, I hear valve lash like a solid cam, so I went looking real close. I found a odd issue with the 1.5 ratio rocker stands...I will post up later tonight on that.
This afternoon, I drove it out so I could back it in to work on something funner. I am pretty sure I will put the 41 Chevy taillights back into the fenders. Just hold your finger over either taillight in the bigger pic, to get an idea of what it looks like each way. That's what they did back then, so I don't care if looks a bit odd...
Also the inside door handle was bugging me and my son, because the doors have guts from 31 Dodge rear doors which were suicide, so the handle worked backwards. Turning the handle 180 just makes it hit the window handle and gets too close to the 41-48 Chevy big steering wheel. I was able to flip the inside door control upside down by drilling 3 more holes. Now it goes the right way to open.
Also a door edge pic showing how the door jam side of the door is part Dodge now. All the Ford stuff was welded shut or cut right out for the A-hole suicide door conversion that was done before I got it. So, this is the best I can to do. It works nice.
oh, and I was not going to show how I got the exhaust from the lake to where the muffler is .. ... but WTH..... My header and muffler head pipe is now all welded one piece and slides right out real slick. Muffler slides onto that, and it's done except for downspouts or tailpipes. The frame and center X is strong, and that is not a critical area.
I'm really enjoying your style, simple straight forward no nonsense rod building.
love the chevy tail lights, and i like them in the fender. [that's the way my car is]. good idea using the dodge parts on the doors, that saved some dough!
Frank your doing great its coming along and so is spring your almost there keep plugging. It`s great that your so crafty and not just buying stuff,using the old noggin.
Ok IMO I like the 32 fenders without the tailights in them. But i dont like the back panel cut into either part of my dliema on what to use on my car.
I knew long ago when yyou posted on that idea of going through the frame you would..I need to see it in person before i make a decision but whadya care what i like, but i kinda like it so far. It looks goooood!! FYI Frank I am pretty excited about your car can`t wait til i see it. Thanks for posting the updates
I posted a while back that I had to convert to 1.5 ratio rockers and stands because my new-old cam is ground for 1.5. I was looking at everything today to look for valve train noise.
I can't believe I missed this earlier, I guess I was more concerned that I had the right pushrod length. First pic shows the rocker stand was drilled slightly off when new, and the valve retainer is hitting it with valve up. 2nd pic shows how it should look.
In total, I had 3 retainers hitting, so I clearanced those and checked any close ones with a piece of paper between, while pushing the retainer towards the tight spot. If it did not grab the paper while I moved it, that's good to go.
These 3 only hit at dead top, and barely hit, so it was not causing any odd noises.
As you know, these motors don't have a spec for lifter pre-load because the original rockers are not adjustable. When I put the rockers on during the cam change, I went very light on preload. I found the point of zero lash, then went barely 1/2 turn further. It's a 3/8 x 24 thread, so a half turn is maybe .030?
On resetting them today, I went a bit more than 1/2 turn, after backing them off to find zero lash again. I was trying to quiet the rockers. Dam motor skipped and clacked like everything was wrong...(tight valves).
My friend showed up and we decided to go light again, but even less preload. I handed him the wrenches...he's got good feel being a machinist. We are at maybe .015, and of course the skips are gone, but it still kind of sounds like a solid lifter minor lash noise.
I can't believe the setting is so touchy? Any thoughts? These lifters do bleed down quickly, just not as quick as the tired 303 in the other car. In other words, the valves eventually will all close after shutdown... but as soon as you barely crank the motor with key off, they recover in a split second.
So, I guess I am just going to run it...unless you guys got something. I am not at all worried about the motor, I would drive it 100 miles if I had plates/insurance.
BTW, I am positive it is a hyd cam grind. I checked and rechecked several lobes to see what it has for a "lash ramp"...it's a hyd sized ramp; very short in rise, not enough height to be solids.
I finished the rear axle settings so I could finish weld the trailing arm mounting plates. I also put in shocks with another crossmember ahead of the axle.
Today, I can't believe I took the front end partially apart to switch the 35 front bone tubing to the 46-48 bent tubing. I did not really need to do this, but as the rear of the bones go pretty far under the car, some people who have been here thought that the back ends of the bones will hit the frame over bumps.
I did check that by jacking one wheel way up, and it is fine...but I will do the bent bones so that nobody else wonders
Another reason to cut the bones apart, is that I am now definately going to try a radical change in caster. My car has a very heavy motor, good offset(scrub radius), medium size bias front tires, larger bias in the back...but.. I am using a very fast ratio Ross steering box as cross steer. The 7 to 8 degree caster that is always given as gospel does not seem to be right for this car.
The frame was from another old rod and has old bone brackets at the outer rails. I have relocated new bungs to go under the car. If I use the new mounts, I am at a little less than 4 degrees, if I use the old mounts, it is 5.5.
If I jack the center of the I beam up to take the weight off the tires, my steering will go all the way to hit both factory stops. It does not hit the stops if the weight is on the tires. It bugs me. The caster must be a part of this..
So, I am going with even less caster just to try my theory, if it goes bad on the road, I'll let you know.
First pic shows how to sneak a single bone out with a reversed eye spring, without any special skills/tools. Just jack the frame horn tip up until a steel block slips in between the spring and axle...then lower the jack untill the shackle has no side load.
2nd pic shows the previously trimmed and slimmed 35/36 front bone yoke lined up with the 46/48 bent bone.
3rd pic shows that there is plenty of bone-to-frame clearance with this setup. Also, it still has the same room for the tie rod up front.
In the AM, I need to spend time leveling the 4 spots where the tires and alignment tables will sit. I use plywood/boards/shims to get it dead perfect. Then I will be on true alignment tables with the old style magnetic alignment head, to get a much more precise read on the caster and camber, too. An angle finder is sketchy unless you know it is perfectly aligned with the F to R centerline of the car. a slight variance won't be good if I am cutting the caster so close.
Once I get help to hold the axle beam/perch to the exact degrees I want, then I can weld the bone together. If I get some accuracy, I will offset the caster 1/4 degree to compensate for road crown...but i am not sure I can get it that close when tacks cool..
Oh, and I found out that my spring does not have the same OD on the bushings as the perch. I need to use new Model A shackles to make more room for front shocks. I need to make 4 new bushing now. The A bushings won't fit either hole.
Yes, I am still working. Now that I have gone so light on the caster, I can steer lock to lock and hit both stops. A big change in caster now makes the spring angle at the front crossmember wrong.
First pic shows making a 5" long caster shim to be the top piece of the front spring. My friend says that I don't have enough travel under the front spring U bolt plate, and that it will hit on big bumps at speed. It has not hit yet by driving the hill behind the shop in both directions. Maybe I should not have reversed the front spring eyes. I will add the shim, and take out the shortest top leaf, then add one beefy leaf today. Maybe get more arch.
The rear springs felt perfect until I added shocks that are for a light foreign car. I need to pull a beefy leaf out, and add spacer leaves to the top of the pack. I need more spacers because the lower plate for the U bolts won't reach the spring without temporary wood spacer blocks.
So much to do with the chassis right now, but driving/twisting the car this much may get things settled in quicker.
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