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Projects Olds Rocket 324 in a 32 Ford; "trying to finish it thread"..

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by F&J, Dec 5, 2011.

  1. Paul
    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 14,642

    Paul
    Editor

    9 degrees before top dead center initial is right where you want to start.
     
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  2. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    Ok then, I think the Canadian dollar is measured differently, as well as gallons...but ...

    can someone help explain this :)

    .Geez, I'm having senior moments all self inflicted , I don't need more confusement

    George, Initial fire at idle speed is at 9 before top dead, that's 9 advanced. (retarded is ATDC...)
    Book spec, stock 1955, is 5 before. Dave50 said try it at 8, I told him I knew I set at 8 before the old cam break-in overheat, and that I then advanced by ear and it ran cool next attempt. That is why I was surprised to see it at 9 today. I know (?) I never reset later. I must be wrong on that.

    Dave said I could go as max as 15 to sort it out, but be wary that Olds (thick walled) motors can mask pinging at loads.

    I need to get the radiator flowing good, then give it a run. I left it at 9. it runs wicked strong, pulls great. Breaking tire loose in 2nd while underway in 2nd...moderately booted, not mashed.
    cool thing about the 1949(and 50?) distributor is that it has a pointer and scale, so I can road adjust without a timing light, and know where it's set. Cool!

    .
     
  3. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    o_O:rolleyes:
    Its not you Frank its me.:confused: Sorry, I just spent 4 hours with 21 7 yr olds jumping up and down and yelling...:rolleyes: Just got in the door from a BBQ at my kids elementary school and answered your post, I am a pretty worn out. I'm gonna chalk it up to that...:oops: I think I'm going to bed.
     
  4. according to Don Cherry the current degree exchange rate is 3.2 to 1
     
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  5. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    3.2 seems to ring a bell....oh, wait that was what they sold for "beer" in the US Army PX. It was called 3.2. I had friends that went to Viet Nam, they used that term all the time. It was 3.2 alcohol percentage.

    Boy, I am hoping the rad gets a little better by the morning. If I can get it out for a ride, to feel the rest of the car would be nice.

    I only drove it a mile maybe, and then kept bugging my son "hows it feel'' "does it follow the crowned road into the gutter" etc.

    He said it was twitchy on the faster State roads. I will lower tire pressure all 4.

    I played some games with the front end the night before we drove it. I only had the bone tubes tacked good to the modified 35 bone yokes, as I hoped to drive it first, and if it tracked OK, then weld them.
    I ran into a problem due to going to full lock left turn, the crosslink and tie rod rubbed hard on the Rt bone bottom. These are late 40s S bend bones with more clearance, too.

    So I figured my caster was so insanely low, that I could bump it a degree or so, to clear there.

    I ended up at 2.5 right and 3 on left mismatched to keep it from following crown, That part seemed to work. The box is SO fast, 2.5 turns lock to lock! It still feels a tick stiff at full stop, but light on the roads. Tires feel like they need less pressure. I was gambling on mismatched caster might make the I beam into a torsion spring to tilt the car, but seems fine/ Just experimenting...
     
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  6. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    I could use some "common sense" opinions today:

    I set up a clean clear milk jug/hose to catch every drop of the pure white vinegar that sat 14 hours in rad.

    There was zero rust color, zero flakes, zero mice fluff. It has a light green tint, and since it was flushed prior with water, that is not remaining antifreeze, it is the reaction to brass/copper.

    So, I went to do the one gallon drain test. I pulled the lower plug off and it was Worse! The first time yesterday, there was an initial rush for a split second, now that is gone.

    Ok, so no rust stain, it has to be/must be, organic blockage? Something in there swelled up with the vinegar!

    so, I made a lower cap with clamp from a tire tube. Poked a tiny hole. Then got the compressor up full, and used a blow gun to listen up top. Can't tell much, so I held my hand over the filler, built up pressue and released my hand maybe 5 times. You can't get to the inner rad overflow pipe to seal that, but it still had pressure built and released quickly.

    I took the upper hose nipple cover off, held a cup under that, put water in the filler, hoping trash blown up in top tank will come out there...not really anything to see.

    I then filled the rad back up full, pulled the lower and got all kinds of crap coming out and lots of crap-color, the initial "rush" is back for longer than yesterday. I know it's better, but I doubt good enough.

    I am sooo tempted to whack it with muriatic diluted? I forget how to mix water with it. One way is dangerous. Should I dare? No, Yes, do something else? It's organic, I am postitive

    looked at the spare radiator...there is no way I can unsolder top or bottom tank. I know it will go real bad.
     
  7. Paul
    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 14,642

    Paul
    Editor

    insects? mold?..
    sounds like you are on track.
    I'd be tempted to continue pressurizing it one end then the other,
    trying not to exceed about fifteen or twenty psi.. wouldn't want to balloon the tanks..or worse
     
  8. Slowly pour Muriatic Acid into water and stir gently. Stir only with plastic or bare wood. Diluting acid in water can produce heat and may cause boiling and spattering if mixed too fast. BRIGHTEN CONCRETE AND MASONRY SURFACES: Will not remove grease, oil or rust stains FWIW
     
  9. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    Man, if that's the exchange rate, I'm gonna buy a Model 40 Roadster!!:D
     
  10. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    Thanks Walt. If organic, it sounds like your description will not fix the blockage but may ruin the metal. I won't use it.
    Yes, I was concerned at first, but thrilled when I heard the "forgotten" internal overflow pipe hissing under the radiator. I can see the inner tube right there as I pressurize, and the "balloon size" is my pressure indicator.

    This radiator really is in excellent condition, and I don't want haste to destroy it.

    Been on coffee break on my thinking porch, far from the shop, where my brain works better...
    I am going to try this:?

    Heat two full gallon milk jugs in microwave. First gallon done quickly/drained, will preheat the radiator. Second gallon will be mixed with a full bottle of carpet steam cleaner liquid soap.

    Then while that sits, maybe do the rear spring. Then drain the soap, do the air flush/releasing thing again, then rinse and flow test.

    ??
    Guys, I can't start ripping things apart...it's never been my style. things go wrong..
     
  11. greaser
    Joined: Apr 30, 2006
    Posts: 834

    greaser
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Sounds like your on the right track... Don't get discouraged.
     
  12. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    Yes, like Pete said, we all have problems...you will fix it.

    It's soaking a while now. The first hot gallon has some dish liquid soap...I pulled the lower plugged hose off, and I just could not say if dirt came out, but flow increased a lot.

    Rushed to cap it again, then add the hotter gallon of carpet cleaner mix.

    Looks real gray here, car outside...just looked at radar.. dammit, rain right near me just south, moving fast. Sheesh

    I'm not doing the spring today. I hope to fix the heating enough for short trips with no passenger to add weight. Road heating might knock some more crap out, I hope. Especially if it pukes up good. That should help.
    .

    .
     
  13. Keep at it Frank. Sounds like you're slowly getting there.
     
  14. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    Started raining right at my last post. rush to drain the carpet cleaner mix so I could do another airblast while outdoors. More stuff came out.

    Then filled rad w/water to do flow test. most was drained in 4-5 secs but you know that air always goes to clear path, so it can't have all tubes cleaned out.

    well...

    Ok get car back in out of rain, hooked hoses, filled with plain water. Running different RPMs to get it hot. Some shutdowns to see gauge, when off(OK). Heater flows. Water level impossible to maintain with that F'g baffle in there.

    Dammit, gauge shows OK, then burps out a WAD of water, look at gauge,still Ok. Leave running and kept slowly adding water as I can't friggin see where the level is. Get it showing, run more, gauge Ok, then another huge column of water backs up. Shut key off then wait to see if gauge pegs: No it didn't

    Coffee time.

    I will wait till it cools off, and take the dam Tstat out. Perhaps each time it opens, it overfills the still partly plugged core? If stat is out, I won't get that open/shut cycle. I need some stability here.

    I may have air ballooned it to much, as I have a leak somewhere up front, but everything is soaking wet

    Gauge is not going high like the last two overboils, I am positive. Cooler day, but still...

    People say I don't know when to give up. I will keep trying till I am then forced to trailer it for VIN verification by next Friday.

    .
     
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  15. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    I like my thinking chair on the porch with a coffee. It produced this thought train... What do you think?

    -remove Tstat? YES , mandatory in this situation, "If" the column of water I saw twice is being "pushed out" by sudden opening of the stat.

    -restrictor installed to prevent pump from overflowing the partly plugged core? Absolutely not, because I remembered the only road trip when both drivers ran RPMs up fast,as well as gradual, and it never "shoved water" to escape the unsealed cap.

    -If you have followed the recent thread about :"slowing coolant down", a few mentioned that "pressure develops on the engine side of stat by the pump". I am basing my new diagnosis on that; when my stat opened, the backed up pressure overtaxed the small capacity of top tank over a still somewhat plugged core. So, if it did not do this on the roadtrip when the radiator was more plugged up, then am I thinking OK?(there was no stat then)

    what's your opinions...please :)

    .
     
  16. No opinion here, but still following for Oldsmobile sage advice (Paul) and obviously bad ass Cabriolet builds (YOU) .... nice work so far, but what does that mean for Frank ? Carry on please, sir !! :)

    I will say, that I have white vinegar'd every unknown vehicle to me for as long as I can remember. I've never had any issues, but don't encourage anyone else driving theirs for three weeks like I do. Had one late model give me issues ... but it was plugged with that head gasket repair bottle of miracles ... so I don't count that really. <I didn't put that cr#p in there>

    After reading the posts that indicated radiator horrors, I did venture out and empty my most recent "salad dressing" radiator recipient ... O/T brass radiator 4x4 ... 5 weeks !! Shiny brass insides ... and now full of baking soda, hose water, and house cleaner. I'll run that for a week, and finish it up with some distilled water flushes.

    H.A.M.B. has always cured my quirky vehicle issue problems and I'm thinking this is another learned thread for many. Very cool and thanks for keeping the fire burning.
     
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  17. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    Well now Jamie... Since you live in the world of "household products WORK".....what do you have for advice "if" I now have a tiny radiator leak, and just want to drive the car a bit before winter, when I can pull the radiator out for a shop to rod/clean/fix? Thanks for all you encouraging posts and likes on the hamb board for years. :)

    I'm headed out to shop right now to drain and remove stat. Then I will run it again to see what on earth happens this time. I swear the column of water I saw twice, was not steam driven.

    .
     
  18. :( ... awww' man. Wonder if it was plugged with some sort of "stop leak" prior ? Ugh' .... the lives of 80 year old parts. Never know, huh ? Dang it. Sorry sir ....
     
  19. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    Pulled the Stat out. Then filled with plain water. I had it running while trying to keep the fill level just above the damn baffle by using one block drain petcock, as the water expanded....and kept climbing. It did seem to stabilize IMO. I was wanting to avoid constant refilling with cold water, trying to have things stable.

    It's not doing the "column of water gush". I have the mechanical temp probe in the tank as good as it can. It never gets quite to 150, even with shutdowns a minute or two, to get heat in the block to rise, and then restart to watch dash gauge and temp probe. It is not running hot at 20 minutes at different RPMs. At quitting time, as hot as it can get in that 20 minutes, I then shut off and watched for gauge climb. It acted normal, then one more start and fast idle, to see it come back down,,,not up like before

    Is it fixed? IDK until I can roadtest it. Raining a lot, cold dreary and shop stinks of exhaust, so I guess that's it for today. It's so humid that everything near the front is wet, floor wet, can't say where it was leaking, or if it is still as much or not. Pointless to fret on that now.

    My dash gauge: Ford pickup 1970s guts in a 47 Ply gauge face that only goes to 212. I know the mid range is way off when I could see the stat open. I need to determine what line means what at some point. I may get out the Ford gauge face to compare. Those don't have degrees, just two lines to show "operating range".

    I hope I can at least drive it when dry days return. You never know if you're out of the woods :(

    .
     
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  20. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    Woke up at 3.30 AM, maybe it was the RAIN that woke me up :(

    Plenty of time to think better; I am convinced the heat problem is gone, because when that thermost kept cycling and pushing water out the filler, that means the radiator/fan was keeping up with engine heat.

    So with rain now, but radar looks like it may let up midday, I will mess with rear spring. Son has a nasty cold and can't help this time. He did almost all of the job a few days ago, and I handed the tools and maybe helped hold things...he dropped the jack down at 45 minutes from the time he jacked it up.

    I was thinking this morning that my rear spring must be from a 46/48 rear end that was a scrapped trailer that came from the local metal recycle scrapyard. It's a lot wider that the 40 front main leaf and it's backer leaf that wraps around the eyes. My existing centerbolt is only long enough for one more leaf. I think rather than making a new, longer "large square head" bolt, I will try using one 1940 long leaf, but I have to arc it for the rear spring deeper arc. That won't take long on the press.


    .
     
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  21. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    just updating; I finished the rear spring mod at 9:30. It goes so quick because of the brake flex line is at midpoint up front of chassis, like Ford did, and when I installed the NORS 55 Olds e-brake cable and mounts, the inners were too long, so rather that cut, I just did a S bend of the flex part when welding the mount locations. This makes it so the rear can hang as low as you would ever need to, by just taking lower shock bolts out, then drop the spring plate off, and there it is.

    Got it high enough so I did not need to lay on creeper so I won't hurt later. I stared at the pack when it was jacked up by the rear end a while. I held the last mid-length leaf up there, and I had to do what Ted and 36Rockit said:.. "you need mid-length". It seemed like if I went with the longest 40 Ford leaf, that would make the outer tips too stiff, but not add any backbone? I also think the flexible outer tips will float over normal variations on any road, to give a good ride, but the midpoint will come in on a big dip/bump. I am not sure about which is best to prevent body roll?

    So, I get that 31"-32" one on the stack and was putting the other shorter ones on, and the last one is a 12". These are the very pointed/tapered end type springs that came out in mid 30s? I thought why am I putting a 12 back in, as it can't do anything with those dainty tips. I found a 24" and put that in, and tossed the 12, and still could use the original centerbolt.

    It raised the car just a tick too much, but when we did the spring a few days ago, that one settled after that road trip. It feels way different on bounce test. It feels firm, but not stiff if that makes sense.

    Now I wait for roads to dry. It looks promising for a ride soon.

    .
     
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  22. Paul
    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 14,642

    Paul
    Editor

  23. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    Here is a rundown in no order, after the short trip today. I was alone, no tools, no water, why bother.....so I left a note for my son, saying where, when, and which particular roads :)

    -Left my place onto State "straight/flat" road, it feels so twitchy like my son complained about. Before I left, I checked tire pressures. First front was 32, went to 27, next front was 27. First rear was 32, set to 28 and other one was the same. Front tires are original real Firestone 670-15. I had a repro 670 firestone on one side last week, and I went to get the other real Firestone, it felt so heavy it caught me off guard. The repro one is normal weight. So maybe I need to go much lower pressure if they are heavy sidewall construction?

    - Quickly got on back roads like planned and it really loves the back roads. No twitchy feel. It will go as slow as you want in 3rd, and moderate gas pedal makes it pull like a freaking train! It is way too powerful in my opinion. I don't dare boot it in any gear as it just goes nuts. (roads are wet in places anyways, so I am just feeling,looking, listening to too many things at once) sensory overload.

    - Warmed it up a bit before going, as it has chokes disconnected. It ran very cold most of this trip. I went to a nice scenic dam, shut it off for a pic...dam camera batts went dead and I just charged them. There was even a Canadian goose standing by the car LOL. The temp did not climb while off or restart. Still 1/3rd on gauge.

    - that leak up front was at the lower rad nipple hose connection. I was using antique screw/nut type clamp, not Chinese either....and I've had others that leaked, so this last one got replaced before I left. Went to fill the rad, and saw a clump of animal hair hung up on internal overflow pipe in there. Chipmunk color IMO.

    - the springs feel fine and no taillight rubbing on leans, no axle crash until coming home: The road I was turning off going uphill, is banked the wrong way, and the road I was turning into was banked opposite and angled less that 90, so I had a sharp turn. Ka-blam on RR axle. I think it has to be the battery at this point, all the way to right side of trunk, behind the axle. It's a monster. I checked taillight wire when I got back, and that one blam just smushed the 90 degree boot off of the lamp base, but wires are not skinned. It was a heavy twist situation, in that if it was a pickup truck, the cab end would flex one way and bed end flex the opposite. My frame has zero flex, so something has to happen.

    - put a 2nd throttle return spring on for today as it was needing a foot tap to settle down last trip. The first spring is stock mousetrap on the firewall; if that breaks, carbs go open! The pedal ratio is too sensitive now, kinda jumps and the motor says " OK, lets f'n GO" he, he

    I was nerved up as you can guess with all the chaos lately, and kicking butt for nearly 3 months. I started to chill out and relax at the end, but could be I was close to home, or maybe getting used to everything at once.

    Seriously, the motor is way overpowered at any RPM above 1000. It is brutal. But the car is so sweet low/med RPM and various speeds on back roads, and that is what I wanted. The trans 1/2/R gear ratio with that 3.23 is a dead nuts perfect match. I can take off uphill at stop signs no problem. It does not care if you are cruising slow in 2nd or high, on back roads...seems great either gear.


    Some of these posts seem too long, but some folks may want details rather than "I went, I drove, I got back, here's the pic" LOL

    .
     
  24. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    Great stuff Frank, glad its not a head gasket.:)
     
  25. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    I never thought it was by past history. See, this is what happens on a build that takes too many years; you forget what happened when, and I had to read my thread to realize I never used it much with the 2nd radiator.

    I never heard of the "4 second drain test" so that helped hit the nail on the head. And that recent few posts about pressure backing up behind the T-stat rang a bell after the last episode with water "pushing out" and I knew it definitely was not steam pushing it. You'd never see that as a problem if the system was sealed. The 4 cyl upper nipple is angled and points right at the filler, and that may be one reason the baffle is there, besides preventing scalding if an owner took the cap off when too hot.

    Sitting here resting, maybe go again, or not, today. Bleak raw day, sitting near the woodstove sounds good too.

    .
     
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  26. Paul
    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 14,642

    Paul
    Editor

    this has been a great thread,
    one of my all time favorites
     
  27. Be careful, my son; that Rocket Feeling (spelled t-o-r-q-u-e) will pull you right into the Twilight Zone, if you aren't careful!
     
  28. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    I must admit I am a little doubtful about mine, I hope it has enough snooze for me. Solid lifter 10/1ish 4x2 347 3 speed with 3.78s and tall tires in a relatively heavy (3200ish) car, I am a bit concerned it may be a big yawn to drive.
     
  29. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    Thanks...it's been a too long journey. I am long winded mostly, and it took a while in this thread, for me to find out if I ran the 2nd radiator much at all; but I saw that I made a post back then in 2012? that claimed "It will not be done, but It will be on the road this year" WTH was I thinking...

    I just went out to go again and got rained out, had to put it away.

    More sorting to do in the days ahead, I forgot all about that requirement on these older cars.

    I have not driven a Rocket since 91 and was a low mile 57 Olds S88 w/Jetaway. I sure don't recall this power, but the 32 weighs nothing compared to that. My old Mopar roadster had a 327 sbc w/4 speed, and same 3.23 but 8-3/4 rear. That was pretty darn quick, but this Olds really puts it to shame.


    These Olds motors still haunt me with the same issues I had in the mid 60s with my Dad giving me his 57 88 2dr post with A/T. He quit running it due to what he said was "bad lifters". I had no clue as a kid, how an engine works. I was broke like all kids were and saved $9.69 for "special clearance priced" McGurk solid "malleable iron lifters" from Honest Charley. I showed my Dad the ad, and he did not know about those. I put them in, and someone must have told me I needed adj rockers. A local "older" guy (23? LOL), in the lake town nearby where the tough guys were, sold me caked-up 371 shafts w/Thomas, and stock chrome valve covers for $30. Yes, it did not go too long around the yard and ate the lifters and cam.

    Bought a 10$ 1957 S88 w/bad trans/good motor and the used car lot owner towed it to me for $5 more. No idea what I was doing, but used Dad's chain fall on a big Oak limb in the woods, and got it swapped with a few wrenches by myself. I was 13

    .
     
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  30. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    Ha.ha...you sound like DON_WOW in a cam post he did. Talking about some particular grind with this-n-that specs....then said" It'd like to PULL YOUR F>>>>>ING HEAD RIGHT OFF" ... :) (in caps too lol)

    I was shocked really. I suppose such lightweight car? You feel it lurch forward so quickly...instant acceleration. Hard to describe. And that's just getting used to the gas pedal, not even trying. And with a 3.23? go figure..

    .
     
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