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Projects Olds Rocket 324 in a 32 Ford; "trying to finish it thread"..

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by F&J, Dec 5, 2011.

  1. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    I'm guessing you think headgasket or cracked head....like you posted back in 2012.. :) I saw that earlier.

    I was rethinking since my reply just now... I will do a check on all 8 tomorrow, ...because.. I did feel some "shake" when holding it steady at 2K rpms today, watching the gauge. It caught my attention for some reason, so it may be new

    I just made a new remote button, so it will be quick.
     
  2. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
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    from BC

    If it is one of those two things, I hope its a blown head gasket.:confused:
     
  3. Paul
    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 14,638

    Paul
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    Of course we are all thinking the same things, head gasket is right up there..
    Water pump cavitation?
    Pin hole in lower radiator hose?
    Cam install correct?

    I have only had one early Olds run hot
    and it was well behaved until a cam swap..
     
  4. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
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    from BC

    Especially in light of the overheating during cam break-in, that's what really grabbed my attention.
     
  5. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    But it totally went away that day, just by grabbing the distributor and moving timing much higher. I then finished a new 20 minute run-in, starting with a cold motor start I think, and had no issues?
     
  6. i heard a story about a dopey guy..............ok, it was me..........who forgot to remove the rag from the lower outlet of the radiator when the lower hose finally came in.
     
  7. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    I don't recall using a rag, (who knows, as I do worry about mice in my shop storage area where it sat ignored for almost two years)...but yes, Dave50's employee did that to Dave's new crate GM diesel install on his shop truck, and he chased the heating problem a long time. :( I will probe up in the lower rad opening with a long hooked wire before I get way too deep off track. It also could be mice fluff I missed when I found this rad in junkyard truck. I'm not seeing anything floating up in filler so far.

    When it was close to boiling late yesterday, while idling, I squeezed the lower hose and saw instant water rise at filler. Seemed to me, if the rad was plugged, that squeeze would then have to go back into engine and up the top hose? Seemed instant as I squeezed it lightly a few times, but what does that prove?

    You run an oldie repair shop, so give some input?

    I can't think of anyone that runs a modern shop that would put their CO2/Hydrocarbon sniffer in a radiator..

    And I don't want to be panic driven by ripping major things apart. I read my thread, and it seems the car ran cool after ear setting the timing much higher after boiling in a few minutes of cam break-in. I am 99% sure my son weeks later ran the car around our mini test track until he got bored, and it had to be 45 minutes back then. It had to be longer than these two current overheats now. Had to be. It never puked or steamed, I'm sure it did not.

    >> changes since then: another stock used 32 4 cylinder radiator to replace the first identical one that had age cracks in top tank, and even some weeps in the core tubes. I also have since added the heater, which hooks to the pump housing, and other hose goes to the last water jacket plate on right rear head. I can't see that as an issue? Olds guys may know. I never let the car sit long spells with plain water to cause rust, I always opened both block side drains.

    I can't believe the distributor has been bumped/moved accidently, as since I redid carbs and synced them, I have never had to reset idle speed, ever.

    So, I'm leaning to the 2nd radiator being a problem, but I don't understand that as the core feels even heat all over the rear face. I can't see the actual flow rate in filler neck, due to the Ford baffle that is close to the fill level :( . I dread pulling the radiator, unhooking headlights, removing hood and hoodrods, just to try the old leaking radiator?

    Here's my plan that may be flawed: Run it a few minutes as it's now low on coolant due to puking. Get it warmed up enough so I can do a proper warm compression test. Also with #1 plug out, try to probe in there to verify timing mark to TDC on #1. Then restart to check initial timing if the damper mark has not "spun" years ago. I had initial at what showed to be 8BTDC before it overheated on cam break-in

    If all that leads nowhere, I may: pull T-stat housing off, Plug lower rad hose, add some sort of standpipe to T-stat opening, fill to top, then remove V-belt, run motor for a few minutes to look for exhaust rhythmic bubbles? There will be random trapped air bubbles, so I'm not sure if this can help if it has a minor headgasket leak into coolant.


    I suppose I could also plug both hose openings on rad, then fill rad, then remove lower plug to watch drain flow rate? Grabbing at straws here.

    .
     
  8. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    I would start with the compression test, then you can rule out the head gasket issue and move on. Did you re-torque the heads after cam break-in? I know, modern composition gaskets "don't need it", I still always do it, and I know a lot of guys a lot smarter than me that do as well.
     
  9. Paul
    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 14,638

    Paul
    Editor

    You said you squeezed the lower hose when hot, was it soft? Could it be collapsing when rev'd up?
    Did anybody suggest belt slippage?
     
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  10. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    I never had the heads off, ever. Not even when I snuck the replacement crank in.



    Ok, here's my heater connection points. Bear with the dirty motor, I'm busy :)

    Anyways, I recall maybe two posts on hamb, about Big Block Chevys either needing some heater hose at rear of head or intake, or NOT to put one there? It was something to do with overheating on BBC


    There is a shut off T handle valve at the rear hose. I never ran it closed. The heater bleeds automatically, never needed to bleed the lines. I tested the heater during yesterdays tests, it certainly is not air bound.

    When I get to it, I will shut the valve off, in case this is some sort of weird issue. Just wanted an opinion. That is a 49 waterpump/timing housing, with a 55 324 pump. I know I looked at the impeller for decay, none. Are these parts any different for compatibility? I doubt it

    DSCN0740.JPG

    ^^^ Is that the right spot? I see an undrilled larger boss on this 49 housing.^^^


    DSCN0741.JPG

    Bummed out with 7 days left on temp plates, and I only got to drive it one mile before we switched drivers to get more weight off the right rear. Like winning the lotto, getting the check in your hand....then wake up from a dream and can't remember how good it felt.

    .
     
  11. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    I did look for collapsing hose late yesterday before it boiled, no signs even when I raised rpms. No spring, and it is soft, but no collapse, not even a hint of that

    Then I did tug the fan either after or before the boil, as my generator needs to get both brackets moved further out, to get more belt surface degrees at W/P pulley. It did not slip with a good hard tug.
     
  12. Paul
    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 14,638

    Paul
    Editor

    Heater hoses look right.
     
  13. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    Am I thinking I saw a pic on hamb of some strange bypass up front on a early style 303?

    Just grasping straws

    I'll get on it later, comp test first, then whatever....

    .
     
  14. Paul
    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 14,638

    Paul
    Editor

    Yes, copper pipe runs from top of water pump to just below the thermostat
     
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  15. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    I know why that bypass is there on BBC's, its probably safe to assume it does the same thing on the olds. It by-passes some fresh cool rad water around the thermostat when its closed to prevent a temporary temp spike at the front of the block just before the thermostat opens. You seem to be boiling over AFTER its been driven for a while, so I doubt hooking up the thermostat by-pass will do anything.
    I have built a few BBC's over the years, mostly limited street and weekend drag racing, we usually blocked it because the intake is off fairly frequently on a car that's raced a lot, never seemed to make much difference, but then, its relatively cool here, if you lived in the south, maybe more of an issue?
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2016
  16. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    The BBC post said it was a hose issue at the rear of intake or possibly head, but I think it had to be the intake due to chevy design.

    My thought was that I did not recall if they said it was needed or if it caused a problem if it was there. They sounded like they knew what they were talking about on that particular BBC motor type

    I did a quick errand, so I will get down there to comp test. I'll post it up asap

    Shit, I don't feel well at all. I've been possibly flirting with a mild hernia for 12 years, and it only acts up in too much lifting , but now it's due to getting off the creeper 3000 times in the last couple months :)

    and for several years, I feel like crap when weather turns cold...like last few days. Other than that, and a nine year car build I can't drive, all is well here. LOL
     
    Paul likes this.
  17. Frank i would bet the flow test for a model A ,four seconds to empty, would apply to your radiator also.
    the way i have done it: remove radiator hoses and plug opening, bottom one can be done with your, or a helpers hand. fill radiator, remove bottom cap/hand and count how long till empty anything over 4 seconds is a level of "plugged".
    for me that test has never been proved wrong.
     
  18. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    This is the hose I am referring to, I am unfamiliar with a by-pass hose at the back of the block.
    chevrolet-396-big-block-01.jpg
     
  19. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    great to have a timed spec, thanks because I'm right now ready to pull the lower hose to fish in there with various wires.

    Ok, Dave50 called earlier, not knowing I had a problem.
    Filled in the details to an engine builder who has seen it all.

    Order of importance:

    -find and verify TDC, then check initial. Rough setting to 8 and no higher that 15 chasing issues
    -comp test, but we are on the same page if it comes backOK, in that it still could have a slightleak into a jacket.
    -check rad !

    so I got lucky to find a big dial indicator that could touch the piston if almost up. Wedged soft rubber between it and header flange to get a solid reading. Unless it moved only a degree,I believe it is OK. I asked how accurate as the piston stalls at TDC. He said average it both directions and you can get to 2 degree accuracy easy.

    This was after comp test, duhhhhhhhhhh. I get the timing light on, it's skipping pretty good...all 4 wires off on pass side. sigh, that's twice in a week I did that.

    Timing is lower than I thought it could be. It's at what I say is 9 BTDC. This year Olds has a wide groove machined in hub. One edge of groove is TDC, other edge is 5, so it looked "spacewise" about 9.
    Shit, he was guessing it was timing,

    Comp down left bank from front: 130-145-130-135

    right side: 135-145-135-140

    The plugs are new from decades ago, but that is good, so I can read recent color better. No signs of too lean. All ceramic is med gray and equal on all 8. None were wet, oiled etc AC 44 I think

    I forgot to preheat the motor, but does it matter?

    Now I will do the radiator test, and also fish wire in there a lot before the test.

    .
     
  20. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    Well, I got the radiator hoses off, then fish wire with a tiny hook, Can get in corners of top tank going through the hose connection. No signs of mouse fuzz, etc. Shined a mini beam up that hose nipple and I see light where the overflow pipe in the neck, passes through the dam baffle. I can see the outer edges of baffle, but just too much angle to see anything.

    Fished the bottom nipple, and having trouble getting only halfway to the opposite side, still no fuzz.

    Drained block petcocks first...NO rust or flakes or fuzz,

    Then radiator drained for 15 m inutes while probing, then capped both hose nipples with plastic bag and hose clamp.

    Added water from milk jug pouring as fast as possible to see if it backed up. No, it did not, but towards the end of filling, it started taking a bit more very slowly. looked to see if my plugs were leaking, causing that, no.

    Son showed up and got cell phone timer set. I loosened lower clamp a lot but kept my hand over the plastic so it did not leak while doing the clamp.. Ready, set, go...and expected at least a first blast of what is in the short lower tank. It did not blast out. It looked like a big fail after 2 seconds...still flowing at 20 seconds LOL

    weird thing was the first stuff that came out was green mix? where from if it was hoses off for 15 minutes??

    Last thing; when filling it fast, it took a little over 3 quarts, final was 7/8 gallon. I was listening for gurgles to tell if it was plugged. It was quiet till the end, then sounded like stomach growling, so I figured that's a few plugged tubes.


    What next? Ideas on cleaning it "on car" or take it off and unsolder top tank? There are no decent rad shops left here. I'm willing to try anything so I don't have to pull the rad off. Yes, when I ran H/L wires, I have a 3 terminal block on front crossmember to get the light wires out of the rad shell, but still a lot of work with hood, hoodrods, etc
     
  21. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    Ted, I looked at your link, but don't understand what you meant???


    Scanning Youtube and found a duffer doing a Model A radiator, testing flow, then cutting tank open crudely, then rodding, then retest. Interesting but 15 minutes of your time,

    He said "carb cleaner" while rodding, but later said WD?


    My radiator came from a farm in the ledge/hills that runs up from where I lived 30 miles south. We had wicked bad minerals and iron, everyone has to use water softeners in homes. So, don't know if it's minerals build-up, or who knows. So, I'm not sure what chemical to soak it. Maybe vinegar, maybe Oxalic Acid crystals made for rust stain removing, or?

    No, I won't buy a repro rad just yet. I want a stock looking one, and many repros are thick core and my fan will hit

    .
     
  22. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    Went to grocery store, 2 gallons white vinegar, one box of salt, one box of baking soda.

    I just put almost a full gallon of plain undiluted white vinegar, no salt yet, as that may "disappear the radiator tubes" by morning.

    I better go look later tonight. Something started happening right away. I cannot describe the sounds coming from inside. This has not stopped in 15 minutes waiting, so I ran my finger in the filler to see if it softened the rust stain on baffle, it did not (yet)
    .
     
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  23. Pete
    Joined: Mar 8, 2001
    Posts: 4,529

    Pete
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    Frank.

    I had 1930 Chevy with a 364 nailhead. I put a junkyard radiator in it, drove the car for months and while at epping.. Not racing.... But as a spectator. I litter ally pulled out of the rack and I had the worse boil over ever... Out of no where.. Had the car towed home and it turned out to be plugged radiator. The fella I brought it to removed the top tank and called me to have a look.... It was more than 50% plugged.

    I'm thinking your rad is plugged.

    The olds 324 in my coupe has no heater, no by pass.... And it runs at 170-180 on the hottest day.
     
  24. Paul
    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 14,638

    Paul
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    just me but I wouldn't put vinegar in the engine,
    I would lay the radiator on it's front and fill it with the vinegar,
    and rock it every once in a while to slosh it through the tubes,
    maybe let it soak over night but not much more,
    back flush with clean water through the lower tube(s) and out the top
    then neutralize with the soda and clean water

    vinegar will eat aluminum and cast iron very quickly,
    it will get into the pores and keep on eating too if not neutralized.

    but you knew that ;)
     
  25. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    Yes. The radiator is not hooked to the engine at all. Both inlet/outlet are sealed with plastic bags/clamps.

    Unreal noises in there right away. I may stay up late to keep checking it.

    I wanted to test this on the other radiator first, especially if I did the vinegar and salt thing like cleaning pennies when we were kids. But I wanted something in this one tonight, trying to save a day

    I was going to go to hardware store, but I wanted to try white vinegar first, It's not as aggressive as cider vinegar.

    I'm trying this only to see if I can get the car good enough for random 5 mile rides, before the season is gone. I then will pull radiator in winter, to either rod it myself or ask around to find a guy that can. It looks really nice for a New England one where the truck sat outdoors since new. The other one cannot be salvaged.
     
  26. Paul
    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 14,638

    Paul
    Editor

    Some tubes must be closed off at both ends, trapped air between ends is making noise as is escapes
     
  27. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    Just went to see, The vinegar was at the top before after refilling it over the first 10-15 minutes till it stabilized.

    But now the level is lower than the baffle, but no leaks on floor. I had to listen hard right in the filler, noises are still there but very faint but steady. I topped it off for the night. Hope it won't turn out bad by morning.

    If nothing bad happens by then, I will use a clean pan to see what comes out. If I get some crud out, then comes flushing with garden hose, fill and then pull the plastic off several cycles. Then if the flow test has improved, I'll do the baking soda soak to neutralize it, then test run it in the lot.


    I'm thinking there is now a better chance that there are no demons in the motor that were adding to the heating. So, not a wasted day.

    .
     
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  28. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
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    from BC

    9 BTDC??!! That's like 20 degrees retarded, that alone will make it run hot. Set the timing, and try it again, that might be all it takes.
     
  29. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    The one thing that would be most affected by the engine being warmed for the compression test? the head gasket...
    But if the timing is really 9 BTDC, I would start there, that could very well be the problem.
     

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