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old skool 450HP? vs new HP?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Jason455, Dec 29, 2012.

  1. Hemiman 426
    Joined: Apr 7, 2011
    Posts: 600

    Hemiman 426
    Member
    from Tulsa, Ok.

    I honestly believe you can't really compare what we had in the 60/70's to whats available today.. I remember when the Pro Stock class first started.. Low 10's and I believe Grump did the first 9.. What are they running today??? Todays car/engine combo's are very deceiving. Like what's been said before, tight, solid, quiet and smooth handling sure changes the perception of speed and power..


    Old: 68 Hemi RR...3900lbs, 4 speed, Verti-Gate shifter, Stock bore,Mallory Ignition, JR Headers, Erson Cam. 4:10 gears= low 12's at 120. app 6 mpg

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    New: 91 stang 3000lbs, 5 speed, 3:73 gears, Dart block 331 CID,8:1 compression, F-1 Procharger, MSD Ignition, Big pulley to kill boost= Lets just say well north of 600 on the chassis dyno.. 17-18 MPG on pump gas.. and the a/c is still hooked up and working! This thing would put a royal hurting on the old toad!

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  2. tfeverfred
    Joined: Nov 11, 2006
    Posts: 15,793

    tfeverfred
    Member

    I'm no fan of new musclecars, but a 5 year/50,000 mile warranty, A/C, P/S, anti-lock brakes, cup holders AND fairly quick, is a nice package.
     
  3. Russco
    Joined: Nov 27, 2005
    Posts: 4,132

    Russco
    Member
    from Central IL

    Dont kid yourself, some of the new stuff is stupid fast. However the way they rated them back then and today is totally different. The DZ 302 from a 69 Z28 was rated at 290 but there are dyno sheets from GM engineering that showed well over 400. I like the old stuff better but wish it ran like the new stuff. I have a friend that has a new Vette that will run damn near 200MPH and still run the 1320 well under 12 seconds. Thats pretty impressive to me anyway.
     
  4. seb fontana
    Joined: Sep 1, 2005
    Posts: 6,608

    seb fontana
    Member
    from ct

    ""91 stang 3000lbs""

    You lighten the car? I thought they are around 3400#
     
  5. 2759 for the Coupe w/ a 4 cylinder, which is what we usually start with. This on certified scales. Now back to HAMB friendly cars, TR
     
  6. LabRat
    Joined: Jan 10, 2008
    Posts: 1,551

    LabRat
    Member

    Perception is a funny thing ... But a loud and rough 14 sec ride will always be more fun than a quiet and comfortable 12 sec one ...


    Modern stuff gives good dyno numbers , why ? big wheels low profile tyres .
    Tyre profile can vary readings up to 50 hp !
    And 12 sec factory luxo barges are quite normal over here , look up Falcon F6 .
     
  7. tfeverfred
    Joined: Nov 11, 2006
    Posts: 15,793

    tfeverfred
    Member

    Amen.:D
     
  8. k9racer
    Joined: Jan 20, 2003
    Posts: 3,091

    k9racer
    Member

    ........................ I rember it like it was yesterday I saw my first chassis dyno. I was in awe..................Years ago I saw Bunkie Blackburn run his chassis dyno. Location was AATASO transmission co on pratt ave in Huntsville Alabama......................... His test car was his wifes new 65 ford wagon 300 hp avertised 390 cid. Automatic transmission. rear wheel hp was 101. all accessorys were off. I questioned him about it and he said for factory stock these numbers were correct because of parisitic drag.. He then explained what that was.............. I did not get to see him use this unit but a few times as I went overseas{SEA} for a while.
     
  9. Revhead
    Joined: Mar 19, 2001
    Posts: 3,027

    Revhead
    Member
    from Dallas, TX

    If that is the rule of thumb, I guess cars that start with 100hp at the flywheel can't even move.

     
  10. black 62
    Joined: Jul 12, 2012
    Posts: 1,895

    black 62
    Member
    from arkansas



    so...?
     
  11. Lucky3
    Joined: Dec 9, 2009
    Posts: 652

    Lucky3
    Member

    A 3/4 ton pickup weighs 6,700+ lbs.....what does your hot rod weigh ?
    Not exactly apples to apples..... :D
     
  12. Hemiman 426
    Joined: Apr 7, 2011
    Posts: 600

    Hemiman 426
    Member
    from Tulsa, Ok.

    V8 coupes are around 3200lbs. Mine has the tubular front suspension, glass hood and a few other little things done.. Never had it on the scales so the weight is a "presumption", but I do believe it is close..
     
  13. arkiehotrods
    Joined: Mar 9, 2006
    Posts: 5,938

    arkiehotrods
    Member

    How much of an overbore did it take to make a 355 out of a 327? Putting a 350 crank (3.48 stroke) and a .030 overbore would yield 355 cubes, but even a .125 overbore with a 327 (3.25") crank would yield only 347 cid.
     
  14. tfeverfred
    Joined: Nov 11, 2006
    Posts: 15,793

    tfeverfred
    Member

    This thread is becoming a nice bench racing session.:D
     

  15. I bet my bench will blow the shelves off of your bench ;)
     
  16. tjm73
    Joined: Feb 17, 2006
    Posts: 3,381

    tjm73
    Member

    All you gotta look at is the hp and at what RPM it's rated. Then look at the torque and where it's rated.

    Someone mentioned the new 5.0 Mustang which is a DOHC design. This model year is rated at 420 hp at 6500 and 390 ft-lb at 4250. Pretty high in the revs. I had a 1990 Mustang GT 5.0 not too long ago. It was rated at 225 hp at 4000 rpm and 300 ft-lb at 3000 rpm. I've driven both cars and while the new cars at stupid fast, comfortable and handles like a dream, the '90 was more raw and fun to drive.
     
  17. Russco
    Joined: Nov 27, 2005
    Posts: 4,132

    Russco
    Member
    from Central IL

    They move but they go backwards
     

  18. easy to understand tjm if you look at the torque curves on a comparision graph. The old pushrod 5.0 torque curve is very flat and starts way down low. The new cammer torque curve is very linear and like the H.P. curve it needs revs to make it happen.

    People forget, not you though LOL, that torque is what moves you from point A to point B, not horsepower. H.P. is just a calculation, and all and I mean ALL engines the torque and H.P. are EXACTLY the same at 5252 RPM. I scare the crap out of a lot of cars with my Jeep Cherokee, don't laugh. The 4.0 liter in line 6 has a torque curve as flat as Kansas, and it's very light as well. From a stop light most guys are left scratching their heads even with their hi-tech V-8's it's almost too funny. TR
     
  19. tfeverfred
    Joined: Nov 11, 2006
    Posts: 15,793

    tfeverfred
    Member

  20. Roothawg
    Joined: Mar 14, 2001
    Posts: 20,203

    Roothawg
    Member

    Amen.
     
  21. Yep HP to weight ratio .... them fox thangs were smoking the hell out of everything in the early 90's
     
  22. GregCon
    Joined: Jun 18, 2012
    Posts: 689

    GregCon
    Member
    from Houston

    I have a lawn tractor that is said to have 22 HP. I have a Kubota diesel tractor that is said to have 23.5HP. What I can't explain, then, is why the Kubota with only 1.5HP more feels like it has 30 times the power of that scuzzy-ass lawn tractor.....
     

  23. Greg, the diesel probably has triple the torque.
     
  24. Kubota? ... isnt that a rice whine? .... unsubscribed.
     
  25. Leevon
    Joined: Oct 5, 2009
    Posts: 401

    Leevon
    Member
    from Nixa, MO

    In response to the original post and since you mentioned trucks...there is some validation in what you're saying and the technical term is "Torque Managment".

    You stomp on the gas in my stock '08 Silverado (315hp) and there is no smoke show, but it rolls out smooth and with manners, exactly the way GM intends. The harder you hit the gas, the more the timing is retarded. The goal is the kind of acceleration a soccer mom likes and long lasting drivetrains, hence the 100k mile warranties. Now...after a tune which literally revises the torque management timing tables and a host of other parameters closer to what we're used to a small block distributor curve doing and the smoke show comes back. I've also noticed that the earlier cable operated throttle bodies respond much quicker as well. Add a shift kit and vette servo and exhaust and voila, new truck with "old" horsepower and the feel that goes along with it (sort of).
     
  26. Hot Rod Apprentice
    Joined: Feb 28, 2012
    Posts: 86

    Hot Rod Apprentice
    Member

    Modern engines are amazing, and the reason that is, is that they have incorporated the 100 years of automotive engineering. Let's be honest it is only within the past 30 years that we have come to expect a minimum of 150,000 miles from a vehicle before extreme failure. Torque and horsepower are a totally different story. Now we have engines that get 40 miles/gallon with 300 hp. These are already fine tuned pieces of machinery. They incorporate variable valve timing and direct injection, to allow for 17:1 air/fuel ratio, which is compensated for by lowering the compression ratio. But then when you really romp on it you get the maximum power production by kicking up the compression. And all of this is simply done by the PCM. It's very complicated and in my opinion really no fun to work on unless you enjoy servicing your home computer as well. But truth of the matter is that modern cars out handle and out perform the old stuff. But in that same sense anything old beats an Aveo or Aztek


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  27. Hemiman 426
    Joined: Apr 7, 2011
    Posts: 600

    Hemiman 426
    Member
    from Tulsa, Ok.

    Greg

    Have a cousin who sells Kubota's.. Here's a toy he built out of a wrecked turbo diesel.. sucker really moves!

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  28. Revhead
    Joined: Mar 19, 2001
    Posts: 3,027

    Revhead
    Member
    from Dallas, TX


    my point is that you can't use that rule of thumb for everything. Obviously it won't work because plenty of cars have been built with much less than 100hp and they are able to move and drive around just fine. Parasitic loss is dependent on a number of factors starting with the pilot bushing all the way down to the tires.
     
  29. black 62
    Joined: Jul 12, 2012
    Posts: 1,895

    black 62
    Member
    from arkansas


    don't you think he was referring to that one particular car ? what i said was meant as a joke about cars with 80 horsepower...as in ''who cares'' who can have the least horsepower
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2012
  30. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 17,658

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Don't laugh. I drive a heavily modded Cherokee too. Stoplight drags are a blast!:eek:
     

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