Old Ford Generators and Regulators : I'm not a rocket scientist!

good, good stuff!!!! i'll get on this in about 2 hours....

like bruce said, i'll figure out what all i'm dealing with:
-I'll open my regulators to determine if they have a strap between F and A (GEN??) ......the parts guy mentioned this to me about a resistor or something between the two contacts.....so maybe he wasn't too far off....
-i have an old style generator that HAD a cut-out on top, however, those contacts were removed and two wires were run down into the case- one to the A and one to the F.......no ground...i assume it grounds through the case
-I have about 3-4 of the later style generators (not 8ba, earlier), they have a lug at the rear (A), and two lugs on the side (F) and (G)......I think i should stick with these.....seems to be more "normal"

this is good info, i think i'm on the right track......

 

looked up a 57 ford regulator on napa and found this # MPEVR412SB my local napa doesn't have it but will have it tomorrow for $21....it can't hurt to have an extra so i told them to get it for me....i asked them to look up other ford 56-64 and they were all coming up the same #



in the mean time, i'll play around with what i've got....

 

Normal...hah...generators are jus plain confusing.
Roughly 1941-62 is normal, 3 terminals, matches known regulators...
'38-40 2 brushers had several variants, used at least 2 odd regulators...
The ones for 2 brush plus fan were based on 78 3 brush basic parts, changes not yet figured out...
I am chronically stuck in the middle of a heap consisting of right pulleys for 2 brush with fan (several exist...), '46-48 type case, 12V 1956 armature and fields...head hurts.
An easy way out of the jungle is any '33-38 3 brusher with one of several aftermarkey add-on regulators, turning them into low amp regulated gens with no serious mods...some regs come in 12V even, but don't put out much amperage.
Consider kerosene lights and magnet; the hand crank is right in your toolkit.

 

i've been running a 3 post 6v generator, 12v regulator (still has the reg housing to positive, i just insulated it temporarily) and an optima red top......has been keeping up for 3 days.....only using brake lights and ignition right now....no headlights.....

keep ya'll updated!

 

I'm interested to see how this turns out, do keep us posted.

 

ok (Petjoe!) i got my new regulator today.....i haven't had a chance to install it yet, though.....it's from a 57 ford, 12v and says neg or pos ground to the housing........

i'll keep you all posted as i drive it more......drove it for over 2 hours yesterday and it seemed to keep up.......the red top REALLY spins the the flatty 6v starter HARD/FAST.......much harder than the other 12v batt i had and it was pretty big....

This is the directions on the regulator

Polarize the generator:
Attach leads to the "A" and "B" terminals. DO NOT ATTACH THE "F" LEAD TO THE "F" TERMINAL. Momentarily touch the "F" lead to the "B" terminal. Then attach the "F" lead to the "F" terminal. (Read enclosed instructions)

The instructions say

Important Notice: Test the battery to verify that it is fully charged before installing the new regulator. An undercharged battery can cause a good regulator to appear defective.

- Disconnect negative batery cable.
- Remove wires from terminals noting the location of each wire.
- Remove old regulator by removing mounting screws.
- Install new regulator and reinstall mounting screws
-Re-attach wires to the same terminals as original unit.
-Reconnect negative battery cable.

Polarize Regulator- Caution: Follow these instructions exactly.
- Disconnect the wire at the regulator terminal marked FLD
-Momentairly (no llonger than 2 seconds) tough the wire to the BAT terminal. There may be a brief spark: this is normal
-Start vehicle and check chargin system for proper operation

 

I smell smoke...

 

QUICK reach down between the seat and turn the disconnect..........hahah, that's what I've been telling people when i take them for a ride!

 

Bruce....you crack me up.
Youngin,
Thats the exact regulator I buy for mine. Be sure to paint it black!
That holds the smoke inside.
I had a run of bad regulators one time. Other than that once I found a good one, I have run them for lots of miles.
Nice thing about them... they can be found at any parts store in the US.

 

Would that be the field smoldering the windings together or the armature de-soldering itself?

 

Bruce,

Didn't you post some 12V conversion destructions for Model-A starters about re-wiring the fields & brushes or something on one of the banger posts?

I'm sorely tempted to get an extra starter & try it on a V8 starter - they aren't that different (if at all) internally....

Might help slow it down & keep from hitting so hard. I've got a barrel starter drive & like it so far. But it still hits hard...

 

Ok, just hooked the new regulator up and used negative ground (reg housing)......SHE WORKS!

I turned right around and hooked the old regulator back up, using negative ground and following the new regulators directions (it says negative ground right on it) and it still didn't work.......either it's bad or it's so old that it possibly used a positive ground or something (even though I tried that too) Ironically, I have another "old" regulator and it does this exact thing.

The thing I noticed about the new regulator vs. the old one, is that when idling, both of them show 0 amps. Ok that's right. On the new one, when I rev it up slowly, the amp gauge slowly comes up with the rpms. On the old one, the amp gauge didn't show any charge until you revved it up, and pretty hard....and THEN it went straight to about 32 amps....when i let off, it went right back to 0....like it was on or off.......

now, for the long haul test and using headlights for a long period of time.....this test will take a while because we are getting ready to go on vacation....

i'll update once i feel comfortable that it can keep up when using headlights, taillights, etc, all at once...

 

Great!
Glad you didnt have to fill the trunk with batteries to get to the Cinematic.

 

Forgive this old man but can you tell me exactly what you ended up with...that works. There were a lot of side issues that had me scratching my head. What generator did you end up with? 2 brush, 3 brush? Is it wired like my ugly sketch? Did you keep those extra wires you were running?

I'm happy that you got it working but I had a hard time following it. I'm just too old maybe.

 

Yeah, I was wondering if it got lost in the translation too...

I'm using a 3 post ford generator (40 and up??), 12v regulator for a 57 Ford Thunderbird (according to NAPA, same for trucks etc.), and a red top Optima (not that this has anything to do with it).......

Basically, I'm just using a 12v batt and a 12v regulator on a 6v system.....

Yes, wired like your diagram......regulator housing grounded to negative (with the old regulators, I could only get it to work if I run the regulator housing to positive)

 

Here are some Model A bits, stolen from the MAFCA site:

What does it involve to change my 6V system to a 12V system?

Answer:
You'll need an external resistor for your 6V coil, 12V battery, 12V alternator, 12 volt filament bulbs, 1 ohm resistor for your horn. Remember you are changing from 6V positive ground to 12V negative ground so be sure and switch the amp meter wires. Your starter motor will be wired for 6V and will work on 12V, BUT you run the risk of breaking your starter Bendix bolts. No problem just have a spare set....Years ago I did mine and went for 2 years before breaking one...

It would be best to convert the starter to 12V...You can do it yourself or have a local shop do it... Just remember it will take two Model A starter motors to make the change. The original motors have a right and left hand field connect in parallel. You must remove the fields from BOTH starter motors and reassemble with one motor having two left field and the other having the two right fields...both sets connected in series. Or just buy the 12V fields from the parts dealer. -- Lyle Meek, 1997 Technical Director

Question:
I would like to know how to rewire a Model A Sparton Horn from 6 volt to 12 volt. What size wire? Number of turns?

Answer:
To change the Model A horn from 6 volts to 12 volts, you must rewind the two field coils. Leave the armature as it is. First disassemble the horn to remove the brushes and the armature. Unsolder the two wires at the connector clip ( one from each field coil.) Note the direction of winding on the coils. The two coils are wound in opposite directions. The rule of thumb is that when you double the voltage, you use 1/2 the wire size and double the turns. So going from 6v to 12v use 24 gauge wire (original wire is 20 gauge, 1/2 that size is 23 gauge, but almost impossible to find 23 gauge so I have always used 24 gauge readily available at Radio Shack). Six volt coils have 45 turns and I have been using 100 turns with 24 gauge wire with great success. Be sure to use coated wire, normally used to wind RF radio coils or speaker coils. After winding the horn coils I usually brush a coat of light varnish to help insulate. The windings do not need to be real tight or in neat rows. In fact I found that if I wrapped just tight enough to form the wire around the core, and laid about 6 or 7 turns per layer, without being too careful how straight each wind was, I got better results on horn operation. In looking at a lot of original horns, some were manufactured with very precise and straight windings and some were wound very haphazardly.

Other odd stuff for the olde 3 brush generators: Several sources offer regulators that attach with simple wiring changes. Some are housed in the cut-out can, some are in a block of solid state mysteries affixed to the strap that covers the brush area. Some are made to convert the things to a low amp 12-V setup.
Brattons offers rather inexpensive windings for generator and the starter conversion windings mentioned above.
Generators are very adaptable apparently--I have a 1930's book on converting a variety of old Ford and Dodge generators for other purposes, including 110 volt use and a 32 volt system I think was for farms with a battery electric system...
The first ford fully regulated generators in 1938-39 seem to have used the model 78 three brush windings and armatures with matching pulley and stuff to run the fan...I assume field wires just have to be segregated and then they can be wired as needed A-B by connecting as needed to ground and regulator??

 

Look around here on this site:

http://www.funprojects.com/search.cfm?querystr=1934&querytype=year

And here on Vince's wonderful Model B site:

http://idisk.mac.com/forever4/Public/pages/generator.htm

 

Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster
I smell smoke...

Would that be the field smoldering the windings together or the armature de-soldering itself?
__________________

The short answer would be "Yes"...but the bacon-like quality to the smoke comes from your face, now covered with bits of molten solder as you peered into the smoking slot on the side of the spinning generator...

 

Thanks, Bruce! It's saved now...

 

OK so if I've got this right you are using a 6V generator that still has it's 6V field windings to charge what is now a 12V system. (the only thing 6V is the generator) It will be interesting to see if your way will supply enough amps for the headlights. interesting.

 

oops, yeah! 6v generator.....stock, no exchange of fields...

if this'll work, that's a BIG headache out of the way for MANY traditional hot rodders.....

 

Remove 2 bolts, slide end plate and 6V housing off, replace 6V housing with a 12V housing, reinstall 6V end plate and 2 bolts....

That's a big headache? I'm not trying to be an ass. It just seems so simple to me. I hope it works for you.

 

Ha ha ha!

Reminds me of a question I got when a friend stopped by the shop before we redid his generator -- "Do all old Ford generators kinda smoke and smell funny?"

 

not taken that way....just got back and didn't see this until now...

i thought (see what happens when i do that!) that your conversion only worked on the later 8ba style cases......and that to use the older 3 post case required a rare sheave (that accepts the fan blade and something about tapered vs. threaded sheaves).....

i could be way off here and misunderstood ALL the info I found......

i kept posting ?'s about this and all i ever got from anyone on here and the barn is that your conversion works but try putting a fan on it?? that's where the funky/rare sheave comes in....

grandpa said he used to weld a pulley to the 8ba style stock generator pulley and would cut out the center so he could remove it....this was when he used, say, an 8ba in a 34 ford.....(still 6v though but your conversion should be an easy 12v fix for this too)

let's figure this out...i don't have any late model generators to experiment on....


edit: like i said, i don't have one to experiment with but i don't see why your way won't work on the older 3 post generators...most of the housings are the same (at least this is some of the stuff i read too).....and the sheave thing wouldn't be a problem because i would be using the armature from the 3 post older style.....

ok, this seems too simple but for some reason i've been down this school of thought and can't recall why they said it wouldn't work...

this is where it is good to have stuff to experiment with.....mmmmm that means i get to look for more parts....

 

Well, I've put about 2k miles on the roadster and I'd guess 500 of them was with the headlights on. So, I'd feel pretty safe in saying that it works......

6v generator
12v regulator
12v battery
red top optima

....seems to keep up great!

 

I read this thread a while back and ran into similar probs myself...

turns out the resistor in the field circuit has a BIIG impact on the output of the gennie. I'd bought a swap meet voltage reg and an NOS Ford gennie... no charge when wired and hooked up.

hauled over the chief electrical engineer from one of the larger companies here in detroit to troubleshoot the system...he was excited to work on the car, simply because he'd never troubleshot a system like this B4!

anyway - the system would *barely* charge above 2500 RPM, and sat firmly at zero prior to that. Turns out the gennie was good - and so was the voltage regulator - along with the wiring!

So what gave?

Well...

The gennie is externally excited via the transmission of current thru the field coils. More field current = more output, more or less. The output is regulated by a resistor in the field circuit - looks like a heater coil outta a midget toaster on the backside of the voltage reg. There's a number stamped on the resistor - that corresponds to the resistance, in ohms, of the resistor. Lotsa resistance = minimal current flow = low output from the gennie.

In my case, the field resistor was stamped '29'. I went to my chrysler service manual, and the similarly sized 6V gennie on my '55 used a resistor stamped '12' - less than half of the resistance.

Hmm...

Went to the auto parts store, and bought a voltage reg for a '51 Ford. Flipped it over, and the field resistor was stamped '14'.

AHA!

installed the voltage reg, fired it up, and she charged like a teenager with a credit card.

 

Chuckspeed, isn't the 51 Ford regulator 6v? Or did you buy a 12v unit?

 

My whole system is 6v...

having said that, I'm pretty sure (according to my engineer friend) there's not much wrong with runnin' it the way youngin' has - except that the output (in amps) would be down relative to a 12V field coil.

 

Ok, I'm seeing what you did now. An old trick with some of the rebuilders in the past was to put the resistor inside the genny case, probably because this was long before they had much of a selection of regulators with the different resistors built in. Keep us posted on how it performs, I'm interested to see if any issues pop up.

 

Nope - nothing wrong with it at all. They put out about 85% of the 6V rating w/o overheating. So a 35A 6V generator will put out about 30A. They will put out more, but you run the risk of damaging the armature...