Technical Old cars: Cool design vs. ACTUALLY DRIVING THEM...

Hello!

Over the past 10 years, I've owned over 12 cars ranging in years from 1941 to 1969. When I bought my first "old car", a '51 Chevy Fleetline, I bought it because I LOVED the design. That long, low profile looked just too damn cool. I'd never driven a car that old before, so it was a new experience. When I got it on the highway for the first time, I was really disappointed because over 50mph, the engine was SCREAMING, and the car moved with the speed and agility of fully loaded garbage truck. I quickly fixed some of that with a PG rear end with 3.55 gears, which got me up to 65 on the highway, but it was kind of a let down. Same deal with my '53 Chevy 1/2 ton 5 window, although by that time I knew enough about "old" cars to know that I'd have regear it, which I did with a T5 and a '56 Chevy 3.73 rear. The truck would do maybe 70 with a later 235, but clearly, it was no tire burner.

At this point, I have only 2 HAMB friendly cars in the garage, a 64 Galaxie ragtop/390 4spd and a newly acquired '65 Plymouth Fury III 383 4spd (look at my avatar...Homie don't do automatics). I miss driving a 50s type car, and would love to add one to the collection, but have learned that I really should drive a car I'm interested in before shelling out the cash to bring it home 'cause the looks will only get you so far...if it sucks to drive, it gets old VERY fast.

So...what are some 50s (or 40s) cars that can be driven on a modern highway at, say, 65mph WITHOUT having to replace the tranny and/or rear end? I'm 50 years old, so I do remember cars with 4 wheel drum brakes and I'm ok with that.

I really like 52 - 54 Fords, and there's a '52 Hudson Pacemaker on CL about an hour from me that looks to be pretty solid. Love the design, but don't know how it would be up to modern roads.

FWIW, I've done MULTIPLE brake upgrades, tranny swaps, rewires, suspension upgrades, etc, so I'm comfortable with a major upgrade if it has to be done, but I want to know what cars might be able to be driven WITHOUT a year's worth of work and $2K - $4k of upgrades.

I do NOT like repowering cars with different engine, ie. the ubiquitous 350 SBC with a TH350, so I usually stick with a tranny/rear end swap...automatics are NOT an option with me.

Let me know your thoughts.

Chris

 

Hi Chris
I'll add my thoughts: I have a 32 Tudor sedan. It is flathead powered- I really enjoy driving it, like you want to, and do drive it long distances and at speed.
However, to do so some/many modifications are/were necessary.
My engine is pretty powerful (for a Flathead). I have a 4 speed transmission.
I also have an overdrive behind the 4 speed. The car will cruise all day at whatever speed you would be comfortable with. Highway speeds of 80 and more are no problem, the brakes are drum, no power. It's a hotrod.
In your case, find something old or newer that is capable of doing what you want, or can be modified easily (?) to do so.
My car also is not a tire burner, because I do not abuse the vehicle. But it fits my needs, is reliable and fast.
The Overdrive is one of the very best options you could ever do to any car.
That Fleetline you had would be well suited to an overdrive, but if you want highway cruising and power, whatever yo decide on will have to be modified in some fashion.
Older cars is good condition (I mean all parts) will drive well on any and all roads, and most vehicles can have larger sway bars, etc., etc. to make them handle better.
You already have a grasp of the labor and expense of changes.
All it takes is Money & Time
Best
Jim

 

My '56 Nomad is a blast to drive and it never fails to put a big smile on my face whenever I am behind the wheel, over 300,000 miles in the 25 years I've owned it. It came with a 3-speed on the column when I bought it in '91, but has had a M-20 Muncie since 2000.

 

have you looked in the Classifieds here for done,or close to done ride, that appears to meet your criteria and is reasonably close to you? a totally stock American Company built car not likely. but, you know this. so, get buying or get building, to go get your dream ride.

 

Just my limited experience. The 52-53 fords are flatheads. Even with the o/d, you're a little short on power to weight ratio. The 54 isn't a lot better with the 239 y block, but a 272 or 292 is pretty much a bolt in, and with the o/d, solves the problem. The 55-56's are a little better. If you've got big arms or p/s, put as much castor in as you can, and run radials. Then they go down the highway pretty good. Sway bars, gas shocks, Aerostar springs, lowering blocks are all cheap and easy. The T-86 R10 o/d and stock rear work fine if you don't abuse them.

My buddy's 56 Nomad was fine with a good 265 power pack and p/g. Rebuilt front end (A arm bushings was all it needed). An o/d is a bit harder to find for a chev, but they're out there. A little 330hp crate motor and a 700R4 (his choice), it's no problem in modern traffic. But tri 5 chev's are a lot more money.

 

I drive my 56 Ford Victoria 292 Fordomatic and 3.31 gears. It has radial wide whites. The speed limit in Ca. when it was new was 55 and higher in rural states. I drive it 60-65 on the freeway and usually "clean" it out every time I get a chance (love to hear those dual quads sing) and it saw 90 on the speedo last Sunday morning. I'm smart enough to know it is an old car I don't want to destroy it doing something stupid. The suspension and brakes are stock and perfect. I love to put in an overdrive and may someday. Just drive what you have and keep looking for that 50's cruiser.

 

Is there such a thing as a "stock" (pre '48) hot rod? Isn't the whole idea behind "Hot Rodding" to improve the performance? It seems like you're looking for an old, stock car that can keep up with highway speeds. I'd like to see what gets tossed up, because in my world, that stock stuff gets swapped or highly modified.

 

If you want to stay in the '50s, '55-'59 Ford products, even with 6cyl engines, will easily cruise w/traffic, & the v-8s, Y-block, MEL, or FE, aside from the drum brakes & carburetors, are basically 'modern' cars performance-wise. The other brands are very similar, but I'm more familiar with fords. I hope this helps.

 

This whole great big hobby is built around getting modern running gear into old cars. There are just Two ways to think about that. (Many different ways to accomplish it)
First is you shove the modern components into the old stuff style and shape
Second is you remove the new body from the modern components and then install the old body over and around the modern components.

The whole Street rod thing ,,,

Where do you fit ?
I want an old car that works like a new one.
I want a new car that looks like an old one.
Or
maybe you fit on the hamb, where old cars are what they are.

 

tfeverfred, I'm with you. Look close at the picture in my avatar, those are two carb bonnets for the blow thru VR and VS units. On y blocks. But his question was what he could do without an engine swap. Or asking about front clips. I've got a soft spot for old motors and old cars, and the old ways. I thought that's why we're here.

 

I think a 55 or 56 model car, be it either Ford Chevy or Mopar would fit your criteria. I would drive my first car, a 56 Ford Fairlane, over 100 on many occasions. Chevies were even more powerful stock in my opinion. You could put a 5 speed in one and have a ball.

 

Yes, that is why we're here. That's why I mentioned highly modified, as well as an engine swap. It'll cost more to modify that older engine, but if wants to play, then he'll have to pay. I just don't see a stock powered car, being that much faster with just a transmission and or a rear end swap. That will let him keep up, if that's all he wants to do. Either way, out of curiosity, I'd like to see him meet his goal.

So, I guess my question for the OP would be, do you want to go fast or just keep up?

 

I will always say, "If you want to do 80, buy a car , 1955 or up. 1954 or down is crusin' and looking sharp. Hell, out here in SoCal, 75 percent of the time, you're lucky if you can hit 30 M.P.H. on the freeway.

 

Dare I say it... check out the specs on a modern daily. Any of them can cruise at 85 once you get them up there. So, what do they weigh? How much HP / torque does a 2015 banger put out? How many speed trannys do they have, what are their crusing rpms, gear ratios, number of gears, axle ratios and tire sizes? Then transpose those numbers over what your vintage ride has and see what needs to be changed to raise the bar to at least 75 mph. Overdrive trannys and new rear gears don't seem that expensive to me if your engine has the power to work in the right rpm range. Gary

 

Some people like them, some people love driving them.

I love to look at them, and I love to tweak the things that doesn't make me happy, when driving. But I want them to feel the best they can, but not loose the old car feel.
But that is a razors edge that, you could go to fare. I go in the direction of the bolt on but no cutting on my car. My dry lake car, will be made to look like stock and handle/brake/accelerate better, but will never be a true race car, but fun to the core of its being.




This ain't a hot rod, this ain't fast, this is old school fun that brings so much happiness to driver, and old driver/owner/public.
It needs a little paint, plan is doing an old school truck paint job (wash, scuff, grease rubber/glass/chrome, paint with enamel, rub the grease of and drive hard).
Frame is brush painted, brakes and bearings are gone true and it sees a lot of duty, and the odd summer drive for coffee and/or ice cream.
I love driving, so does my brother and dad.
Re-gearing or bigger tires would make it more highway friendly. And since it don't get the full 6tons load all day and all night anymore, it can pull larger tires with stump pulled first.

What I'm trying to say is, I like them old, and I like giving them something extra to make the more pleasurable in modern traffic.
I can enjoy both good looks and the feeling that goes along with it

 

Anything after '54 will probably satisfy you more.

 

Transmissions...when are they automatic, and when are they manual? Does a fully manual shift slushbox count as an automatic? no clutch pedal, but the transmission is in the gear the shift lever is in, it won't upshift or downshift by itself. Full control. Same with the added on overdrive behind the tranmission, it requires the shift lever be in 3rd gear, and then push a button and it goes into OD. Bump the shifter sideways a little, and it pops back into 1:1 drive. 70 mph on the highway is fine, but with the altered wheelbase, skinny tires, and high profile, driving faster gets a bit tiring, because it takes quite a bit of attention.



Packard had OD in the early 50s. You can swap the trans into an older, car, or just buy an old Packard. too bad they look so bland.

 

I have to disagree with you on the '54 Fords,even the inline 6 is a excellent highway driver.

Members of the '54 Ford Club of America,Dale & his Brother,have driven a stock 6 cylinder sedan Texas to California and back,from Texas to Branson,Missouri and back and more recently from Texas to Novi, Michigan and from one end of Route 66 to the other. HRP

 

Many years ago our main car was a 55 Chevy (still have it). My wife drove it everyday in Bay area traffic for 8 yrs. As our main car it was what we drove everywhere-Arizona,Nevada,Oregon etc. It had a powerglide with a 327 and would cruise I 5 at 80 all day. Before that one we had a 55 with a 265 and 3 spd and OD. Same deal-would roll at 80 all day long. Took many long trips in both-no problem.
In 1980 also had a real clean 57 150 with a 3 spd and tired 235. 55 was down and we were gonna take the kids to Magic Mountain on vacation. My circle track buddy had a good DZ 302 motor and we stuck it in the 150 and headed out on the trip 450 miles one way-never had a problem-wish I had that one back-sold it in Santa Rosa in 82. The intake and distributor are still here somewhere.

 

55-64 chevy rear gears...3.08...you should be able to drive 75 just fine with them.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/spz-36189/overview/

and while looking for them, I found the 55-62 chevy truck 3.38 gears

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/yga-24144/overview/

 

Everyone always mentions the rear end gear ratio but it's not just that alone. The transmission , the motor , all have to be in unison. Even the height of the tires are part of the unison.

 

Our 55 mentioned above had 3:36 as I recall. 327 was about 2800rpm at 70.

 

Thanks for all the replies.

As far as what I'm looking for, yeah, I love fast cars, but I already have several OT muscle cars ('68 Z28, 69 Mach 1, and the 65 Fury 383 4spd) so I'm not necessarily looking for another hot rod. I want something that can hold its own in the left lane for a long drive without coming close to the redline, is all. I'm ok with drum brakes, or upgrading to front discs if I have to, and the typical loose handling of older American cars.

There's a '54 Ford Victoria a few hours away from me. The description says that it's a 6 y/o restoration, and it certainly looks good in the pics (although pics always make a car look better). It's listed as a V8 3spd, but the ad doesn't say which engine the car has.

What rear end gears would a '54 Victoria have come with? Would a 239 with that rear end be capable of highway speeds?

If not, what bolt pattern does the stock 3spd use? I ask because I'm a big fan of the T5, and wouldn't rule the car out if it took a T5 swap to give it highway legs.

Thanks...

Chris

 

That is so true, and even more so when considering/comparing a 40's to a 50s, or a 40s to a 30s car. As a general rule, older has less aerodynamics, and less hp/torque, so if you go a bit too far with a low numerical rear ratio swap, the 3-speed car can be so crappy around town, but be better on the big highways, UNTIL you hit long grinding hills and run out of motor.

When swapping rear gears on a 3 speed car, you need to know how low your first gear is, too. If it's a higher gear, it will be awful to get it moving with a low torque motor....and with no synco on first, staying in 2nd gear might not be fun in stop-and-go traffic tie ups.

cracks me up to see restored mega buck old VW busses with 36 and 40 hp motors trying to pull the big highway hills leaving Hartford CT after a VW show, and they are stuck in the breakdown lane screaming in 2nd or 3rd gear, and never get in 4th until they get far over the hill.

 

54 without OD will be in the 3.70 -3.90 range depending on if it was a V-8 or 6 cyl car .OD car was generally 4.10 IIRC. 239 is not a powerhouse.A 292 or 312 will fix that.Look the car over carefully,a LOT of 54s I have seen have later ,larger Y blocks in them.The automatic trans cars had a mid 3s rear that helps a lot at road speed.

 

A quick look on Bing had a 54 tech on Hemming website:
"REAR AXLE
The semi-floating hypoid differential in 1954 Ford cars was equipped with three different rear axle ratios, depending on the transmission fitted to the car; those using the basic three-speed got 3.90-gearing, while overdrive-equipped cars had a 4.10:1 ratio and Ford-O-Matic cars got a more relaxed 3.31:1 ratio. These rear ends are considered well built, and replacement parts are easily located." END QUOTE

"If not, what bolt pattern does the stock 3spd use? " The actual trans bolt pattern is supposed to be the same as = up to 1964 big Ford 4 speed...also a few very early Mustangs had that big car pattern. I have no idea if there is a modern OD 5 speed to fit it, as I don't work on those.

One thing about the original OD trans on that 54. It will be the type that freewheels in OD. Meaning, you let off the gas, and it goes into a coast mode....like the trans feels when out of gear. Many people dislike that feeling. Some don't.

 

If you go look at the car, and if it's a y block, check this site. John Mummert give the casting numbers you'll want to look for.

http://www.ford-y-block.com

If you run a search, you'll find the info on fitting a T-5. If you can't find it PM me, I've done a couple.

 

I worked in a body shop in high school, and we did a lot of fix up work for a couple of local used car lots, which meant picking up a lot of parts from local salvage yards. Our parts chaser/shop truck was a '56 Ford ranch wagon with the back seats folded down flat, 6 cylinder, 3 on the tree, and about 150,000 on the odometer. It could bark the tires every time you shifted, and did when I drove it. I had and still have a '55 Ford my parents bought new, 272 2 barrel and 3 on the tree. My 55 was faster on a long straight stretch, but that old '56 wagon would get away from a traffic light faster. I know the wagon had a completely different rear end and a lower rear end ratio than my '55 has. Some of the '50s cars that had overdrive were geared so low that the low rear end ratio almost negated the benefit of the overdrive. The '54-'56 Ford chassis will handle well if the front end is not worn out and is aligned correctly. The wagons benefitted on handling from stiffer springs and a heavier stabilizer bar on front. The main thing you have to watch on them is the crossmember directly under the radiator that the front legs of the lower control arms attach to. They are prone to rust out and fail. One of my cousins wrecked a '55 because a rusted out crossmember broke when he hit a pothole.

 

like everything, you get/got what you paid for. on older vehicles i have found the big luxury brands are better road cars, even those built as far back as the 20's. i worked on and drove a 29 stutz dual cowl phaeton that would smoothly get up to sixty miles per hour and handle nicely. i restored a 58 caddy convertible that cruised EASILY at high way speeds and rode like it was on a cloud. the seats were like a couch, so the fact it cornered like a living room, made it feel not that bad. the big chryslers drove WAY better than a nash metropolitan. a big oldmobile drove WAY better than a sears allstate. etc.....

 

Were they committed to the right lane of traffic? Just about any car can get on the freeway, but is it a burden or a white knuckle ride? In my T, I'd jump on the freeway, but the gears I had didn't let me enjoy it and I had the power to more than keep up with traffic. I couldn't imagine hopping up there in a stock, flat head powered car.