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Oil w/ Zinc content recommended for older engines

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by notebooms, Oct 22, 2006.

  1. notebooms
    Joined: Dec 14, 2005
    Posts: 2,077

    notebooms
    Alliance Member

    I've been hearing about way too many camshafts going flat nowadays-- particularly on freshly built motors using flat tappets.

    Zinc has been added to oil for years as an anti-wear additive-- particularly crucial where there is metal to metal contact in the engine-- ESPECIALLY flat tappet to camshaft contact.

    Today, flat tappets dont exist in most new cars. Today, emissions has pressured oil companies to remove zinc from oil. So, a necessary component for older cars has been going away.... BEWARE.

    BOTTOM LINE: Running an old engine without zinc in the oil is bad news-- especially when breaking in a fresh build. Ask around and you'll hear about high rates of camshafts going flat. Avoid the problem by choosing the right oil-- that has a zinc content of at least .11%. If you're running zero zinc content oil in an old engine, I believe you're asking for trouble.

    I've done some research. Here is the zinc content of todays oils:

    20W-50
    AMSOIL (old) none
    AMSOIL (new) none
    Castrol GTX .12
    Exxon High Performance .11
    Havoline Formula 3 none
    Kendall GT-1 .16
    Pennzoil GT Perf. none
    Quaker State Dlx. none
    Red Line none
    Shell Truck Guard .15
    Spectro Golden 4 .15
    Spectro Golden M.G. .13
    Unocal .12
    Valvoline All Climate .11
    Valvoline Turbo .13
    Valvoline Race .20
    Valvoline Synthetic .12

    20W-40
    AMSOIL none
    Castrol Multi-Grade .12
    Quaker State none

    15W-50
    Chevron .11
    Mobil 1 none
    Mystic JT8 .15
    Red Line none

    5W-50
    Castrol Syntec .10
    Quaker State Synquest none
    Pennzoil Performax none

    5W-40
    Havoline none

    15W-40
    AMSOIL (old) none
    AMSOIL (new) none
    Castrol .14
    Chevron Delo 400 none
    Exxon XD3 .14
    Exxon XD3 Extra .13
    Kendall GT-1 .16
    Mystic JT8 .15
    Red Line none
    Shell Rotella w/XLA .13
    Valvoline All Fleet .15
    Valvoline Turbo .13

    10W-30
    AMSOIL (old) none
    AMSOIL (new) none
    Castrol GTX .12
    Chevron Supreme .11
    Exxon Superflo Hi Perf 135 .11
    Exxon Superflo Supreme 133 .13
    Havoline Formula 3 none
    Kendall GT-1 .16
    Mobil 1 none
    Pennzoil PLZ Turbo none
    Quaker State none
    Red Line none
    Shell Fire and Ice .12
    Shell Super 2000 .13
    Shell Truck Guard .15
    Spectro Golden M.G. none
    Unocal Super .12
    Valvoline All Climate .11
    Valvoline Turbo .13
    Valvoline Race .20
    Valvoline Synthetic .12

    5W-30
    AMSOIL (old) none
    AMSOIL (new) none
    Castrol GTX .12
    Chevron Supreme .11
    Chevron Supreme Synt. .12
    Exxon Superflow HP .11
    Havoline Formula 3 none
    Mobil 1 none
    Mystic JT8 .1
    Quaker State none
    Red Line none
    Shell Fire and Ice .12
    Unocal .12
    Valvoline All Climate .11
    Valvoline Turbo .13
    Valvoline Synthetic .12

    -scott noteboom
     
  2. Thanks for the info, good help and kind of surprising with some of the results.
     
  3. Thanks for taking the time and sharing this information

    Larry
     
  4. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,723

    George
    Member

    There is reportedly a scheduled reduction in anti-wear additives in diesel oil in '07.
     

  5. Excellent post Scott.

    Kudo's.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Any information on Pennzoil's 15-40W diesel engine oils?
    The label says good for gasoline engines that operate in a dusty environment and go extended distances/time between oil changes.

    I'm in the middle of swapping over to it right now.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I do see a new 'rule' for our engines.

    Big CID - 400" & up with flat tappet cams and run soft valve springs.
    RPM limit = 4800 - 5000 RPM.

    Small CID - 400" & under with roller cams and springs required for optimum performance.
    RPM limit = How's your wallet? :eek: :D
     
  6. Bluto
    Joined: Feb 15, 2005
    Posts: 5,113

    Bluto
    Member Emeritus

    Yes Thank you for the info. What about single wt oils? What code are we looking for on the spec ''bug'' ?
     
  7. yes, thanks for the good info. Ot sounds like I can break in my solid lift 283 motor with any of those oils with the .11 or .13 % xinc content rather than running the diesel rotella? I have not purchsed any oil yet and I have been putting it off. Is this a correct assumption?

    I have some 10W-30 Penzoil Advanced Protection oil, does that have any zinc in it? I noticed you only listed pensoil plz turbo.
     
  8. johnnykck
    Joined: Dec 22, 2005
    Posts: 1,025

    johnnykck
    Member

    Hey Scott, I'm surprised to hear that chevron Dello 400 does not have zink in it, I was told by a chevron tech that it does contain zink, I forget how much but it was enough to protect flat tappet cams. Where did you get your info on Chevron Dello 400 oil?
     
  9. GOSFAST
    Joined: Jul 4, 2006
    Posts: 254

    GOSFAST
    Member

    If you stay with "race-only" oils you will be OK for now at least. We use the Pennzoil 25W-50 and any of the Valvoline "Racing Oil". These are not normally sold in the discount stores, only area warehouses and "speed-shops".

    We haven't had a single flat cam issue for as far back as I can recall and we still do approximately 75 units per year. Some are solid's and
    some are hydraulics. We also try to stay with "Johnson" tappets only, even on the Flatheads. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

    P.S. The start-up/break-in procedure is most "critical" for proper cam/lifter longevity!
     
  10. TagMan
    Joined: Dec 12, 2002
    Posts: 6,294

    TagMan
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    There's been a lot of (mis?) info on the chat rooms and in some mags about this, most of it unsubstantiated. If anyone has access to the latest issue of "Skinned Knuckles" magazine, it gives a whole different perspective on the issue. I'm thinking the whole alarmist zinc thing might be a rehash of the "unleaded gas is going to ruin all the valves & seats" thing from a few years ago.

    Yeah, there's been a lot of cam failures reported, but how many of those cam blanks came from China, etc.??

    Maybe the sky isn't falling afterall.
     
  11. johnnykck
    Joined: Dec 22, 2005
    Posts: 1,025

    johnnykck
    Member

    Alright, I just did some research on zinc content in oils and what most people look for when they try to figure out if the oil they are using contains zinc is they look for zinc content, but what oils contain is called ZDDP
    (zincdialkyldithophosphate) and most oils contain ZDDP to some extent. Heavy duty racing oils and diesel truck oils almost always contain enough ZDDP to protect flat tappet cam engines, except a few all out race engines that run extremly high valve spring pressures and rpm's in the 6500 range wich most of us won't run on the street any how! A good oil to use is Mobil delvac 15W40 (wich also contains a little molbdenum) or Chevron Delo 400 15W40. They both can with stand the pressures generated by your average flat tappet cam engine. If in doubt you can always use STP's engine treatment with XEP2 it contains more than enough zinc (ZDDP) for any engine, just add it to your oil and you'll be fine.
     
  12. BIG PORT JIMMY 6
    Joined: Dec 7, 2004
    Posts: 333

    BIG PORT JIMMY 6
    Member

    [

    Yeah, there's been a lot of cam failures reported, but how many of those cam blanks came from China, etc.??

    Just lost a lobe on the Big Port and the cam wasnt from China. I was running straight 40 Napa brand oil, Its made by Ashland Valvoline. I also added the GM oil supplement, but was suprised to see it mostly in the pan in the form of sludge. I am going to run Rotella in the new motor . Check out this site for some good info on oil http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/ Later Jay
     
  13. johnnykck
    Joined: Dec 22, 2005
    Posts: 1,025

    johnnykck
    Member

    Hey Scott in your post you also claim that Amsoil oils (new or old formulas) don't contain Zinc, well Amsoil was just denied an API cetification on most of their oils due to the fact that their oils contain to much Zinc (ZDDP) and ZDDP will harm or destroy a catalytic converters! (who needs catalytic converter any how) Thought you might want to know!!
     
  14. There seems to be a conflict here, but that does'nt matter. What does matter is that Scott and Johnny have brought this topic to our attention, have given us motivation to question the oils we are using, and for that we are thankful.
     
  15. Bugman
    Joined: Nov 17, 2001
    Posts: 3,483

    Bugman
    Member

    GMs EOS(engine oil suppliment) has alot of ZDDP, and a bottle isn't all that pricey. It can be had at any GM dealership.
     
  16. ol fueler
    Joined: Oct 6, 2005
    Posts: 935

    ol fueler
    Member

    Great post , thanks for the info. It leads me to continue to use the same oil I have used since the 60,s Valvoline. I started using Valvoline in everything I run when my dad told me that was the ticket when I tore down the first engine I was going to build, a 303 49 Olds & found the engine FULL of sludge , horrible build up in the rocker covers, in the valley , 2 3 inch thick!! I had never seen anything like it , I had learned engine repair helping my dad as I grew up as he fixed our Chevy six, Studes, & Fords-- they were always pretty clean inside. I was shocked by the mess & my dad said thats what you get by using ANY oil refined from Pennsylvania (sp)?crude . Seems that oil from there has a VERY high Parrafin content which cause a waxy build up in an engine . Started using Valvoline then & always have --- single weight only -- usually 30 W. or racing oil in a modifed engine.
     
  17. Bugman
    Joined: Nov 17, 2001
    Posts: 3,483

    Bugman
    Member

    You guys should scope out the forum at BITOG. It's a forum dedicated to oil and additives. Best oil info resource on the planet.

    http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/
     
  18. notebooms
    Joined: Dec 14, 2005
    Posts: 2,077

    notebooms
    Alliance Member

    Hey Johnny,

    I found the oil data in a whitepaper published by Ed Hackett, who is a chemical engineer for University of Nevada.

    -scott noteboom

     
  19. FWilliams
    Joined: Apr 24, 2001
    Posts: 1,986

    FWilliams
    Member

    that same report surfaced on an aircooled engine site. I believe Porsche had it......it is kind of out dated...I have spent a good deal of dough to have some oil analysis done on my own...and have been privy to some data from others....fact is the most decent oils had 2000ppm of the ZDDP as well as other anitwear additives....API mandated 800ppm and has now dropped that to 500ppm.....


    a lot of companies have already dropped the number, and a lot of the diesel oils have started losing the good stuff to be compliant by 2008....in fact one name brand that upposed to be the hot stuff to break in motors, and highly recommend on bobs site came back with virtually nil zddp..


    most of the engineeers that I spoke with agreed that 1200 to 1400 ppm was a bare minimum for decent protection. they also said that EOS was a great additive when the oil was chocked full of ZDDP as well...but one bottle in todays oil is not enough by a long shot.

    I became a distributor for a racing oil and spent a good deal of time and money researching what is going on....there have been a lot of cam failures ...even on spintrons do to poor oil.....there are a lot of studies going on in the industry right now...and lot of mis info on the"NET"....including bobs site. I wish bob still ran that place!

    best thing to do is keep a close eye on what you are putting in your motor, any reports you read that are over a year old might not be true any more

    Fred
     
  20. FiddyFour
    Joined: Dec 31, 2004
    Posts: 9,024

    FiddyFour
    Member

    Freddy... clue us in bro... who's oil you sellin?
     
  21. FWilliams
    Joined: Apr 24, 2001
    Posts: 1,986

    FWilliams
    Member

    Traves,

    to good of a topic.
    I didnt want this to be spam for a product...especially one I am selling.


    Fred
     
  22. oldcarfart
    Joined: Apr 12, 2005
    Posts: 1,436

    oldcarfart
    Member

    go to a GM dealership, get two bottle's of GM's EOS (engine oil supplement) and add to first two crankcase fill's. It is special break-in lube and even used in diesel engines, I have never had a camshaft failure using it (using it since at least 1968!).



     
  23. Jeff Norwell
    Joined: Aug 20, 2003
    Posts: 14,809

    Jeff Norwell
    MODERATOR
    Staff Member





    AT the very least Fred.you certainly spill the beans on the product you peddle.
    I mean..the engines you build AND donate....c'mon.....
     
  24. man-a-fre
    Joined: Apr 13, 2005
    Posts: 1,311

    man-a-fre
    Member

    Anyone else on the Hamb use Brad Penn oil? Ive had good luck with it.
     
  25. FWilliams
    Joined: Apr 24, 2001
    Posts: 1,986

    FWilliams
    Member




    yep:)
     
  26. man-a-fre
    Joined: Apr 13, 2005
    Posts: 1,311

    man-a-fre
    Member

    Lubrication Engineering is right up there even with Brad Penn as the two best oils bar none. i run them both in my hot rods and rotella in my pickup. I use nothing but LE rearend grease .my.02 nuff said
     
  27. zman
    Joined: Apr 2, 2001
    Posts: 16,730

    zman
    Member
    from Garner, NC

    my understanding is it is no longer sold as EOS, you now have to get it as an engine break in supplement.
     
  28. Bass
    Joined: Jul 9, 2001
    Posts: 3,354

    Bass
    Member
    from Dallas, TX

    Anybody use Lucas? I was told by a very reliable source that the stuff works. So I've been using it in both my hot rods.

    I had a cam go flat in my shoebox after running for about 12 months, this was almost a year ago. I was using Castrol GTX exclusively at the time. I switched to Valvoline racing oil and Lucas and haven't had any trouble yet since the switch.
     
  29. notebooms
    Joined: Dec 14, 2005
    Posts: 2,077

    notebooms
    Alliance Member

    just found out that one of the guys I work with here at Yahoo is related to the lead chemical guy at Valvoline. He's forwarded my questions to him, and i'll post his reply to this thread when i get it.

    Fred-- thanks for naming your goods.

    -scott noteboom
     
  30. FiddyFour
    Joined: Dec 31, 2004
    Posts: 9,024

    FiddyFour
    Member

    Fred, you shouldnt worry about "spamming" the HAMB. . .

    your word is golden so far as built up race mills, so telling us what you use, endorse and or sell i kinda doubt would be taken as spam. . .

    and in my opinion, all the drags engine donations you done kinda give ya a "license to spam" far as i'm concerned :cool:


    to the top again at any rate... tons of good information in this thread... one of the better to come along recently ;)
     

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