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Hot Rods OH NOOO! 32 WRECK!!

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by hotrodA, Sep 17, 2017.

  1. krylon32
    Joined: Jan 29, 2006
    Posts: 7,495

    Alliance Vendor
    from Nebraska

    I did a front similar to Ben's with a machined bung thru the wishbone and forged perches, but left the taper on the perches which seated in the weld bung. I also installed a panard bar. This chassis has over 20,000 miles of hard driving on it so far with no problems. I'm getting ready to do a chassis with the spring behind the axle and I have been studying the way Walden Speed Shop does his and he does a lip of heavy material over the axle to limit upward movement of the axle in case the spring or perch breaks, it also mounts the radiator. He also uses a panard bar. Looks like a wise addition?
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2017
    Hombre, Stogy and my2nd40 like this.
  2. mikew
    Joined: Oct 29, 2002
    Posts: 194


    I'd like to see a pic of what Walden does. Can't seem to find one.

    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
    Hombre likes this.
  3. krylon32
    Joined: Jan 29, 2006
    Posts: 7,495

    Alliance Vendor
    from Nebraska

  4. thirtytwo
    Joined: Dec 19, 2003
    Posts: 2,641


    Jim Jacobs was hanging out at waldens for awhile I think some of the chassis design stuff may be attributed to him seems like they were marketed as "jitney jake " parts for awhile
  5. hotrodderhaag
    Joined: Jan 22, 2007
    Posts: 2,124


    Ok gentlemen .......
    ive read and read and read... here is my response, as i kinda built the heap that came apart and almost killed me.

    The perch failed. Why?? it was a terrible porous cast that had very bad qualities. This perch had cracked first at Bonneville this year, from the signs of the failed parts. Now mind you, at bonneville, it was rough as fuck this year. And anyone who knows about the trip there, and the week on the salt, and even the trip leaving.. I didnt take it easy on this car for a second... The salt was so bad, and so rough that it beat the dog dick off my freshly built 32.. and i didnt bat an eye at it.. just kept enjoying myself.
    I drove this car 10k miles since the end of june. and for a car that was literally finished being bolted together the night before , it did god damn well... I killed my self on this car,. I set a goal to go to bonneville, to travel the US, Go to elmirage, and retun home to NC nice and safe. And i did it!. So to me im pretty sure i built a respectable hot rod...

    as far as the perch goes.... heres the info
    these were either speedway or so cal perches. cant remember. Either way, the taper was machined off, they were cut with a .032 radius in the corners to prevent cracking. on final assembly before paint, they were carefully polished and made sure they had no weak spots on the outside that could lead to failure. They had bungs in the wishbones, that had the sme .032 radius so they mated together perfectly. Were the bolts over tightened ?? torqued to 45 ft lbs, and drilled and cotter pinned. even the bores of the bungs were polished. fully tig welded in, they were allowed to cool properly to ensure no cracks. Why did i leave them bolt in and not weld on ? simply for easy setup. they made it nice to allow the spring at just the perfect angle. This car drove like a new car. over 100 mph with no hands on the wheel with witnesses . Would they have failed if they were welded on ? yes! if the casting was that bad, it would have pulled away from the weld...

    it was mentioned about ken and keith and having no issues. and hot damn are you correct! Those two guys are close friends of mine now, and are blown away by what happened ... it was just a bad part, wrong time and wrong place. Im not upset about it like i should be.. I barrel rolled a 32 ford, chopped 6 inches, with a steel roof insert, flipped it in the air, and i walked away with no problem ? how the hell can i be upset about that...

    And to be on point and not beat around the bush.. I built this car.. MYSELF. I had flop assemble the body, and do the chop. But as far as build a chassis, all the fit and finish work to make this car what it was. I did it. in a 18x18 garage with cracks in between every board on the wall.. i have already shared my thank you to flop with how well his body had held up.. but the rest is on me,
    this car was safe, and a pleasure to drive.

    'The Pale Rider" will be reborn. many leads and parts are already in progress.. this little gust of wind is not going to put out my fire.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2017
  6. Hombre
    Joined: Aug 22, 2008
    Posts: 1,055


    Man I like your spirit and attitude. Need any help just holler!!
    dwollam and Blue One like this.
  7. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 21,178


    Good to see you back @hotrodderhaag we needed just one more voice and you have made it complete. Glad your okay and bringing her back...;)
    Hamtown Al, dwollam, Blue One and 2 others like this.
  8. 34ford5w
    Joined: Mar 18, 2014
    Posts: 190

    from Colorado

    Glad to see you're spirits are up! Glad to see you're ok! Glad I got to see car at Bonneville! Badass car and always will be! I agree bad part!! Man I seen The fab looked great anyways there's pages of technical crap about that! Weather you decide to build it or build another give me a call I got a 34 3w waiting!! Too soon I think not you're already thinking about next build give me a call!!! I got some rags!! Ben sorry for your loss but super glad you're ok brother!!!

    Sent from my SM-G930V using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
    Blue One and Hombre like this.
  9. thirtytwo
    Joined: Dec 19, 2003
    Posts: 2,641


    Don't take this thread to negative , I think everyone here is glad that you came away as well as you did And are more curious as the cause as more of an education than pointing many things could have went way worse for you...broken back, fire while trapped in your car... It's really remarkable !, guardian angel some may say..

    We can all tell from looking at your build thread that you put a lot of time and love in that car some of the remarks like "that's hotrodding" are just plain stupid though ... You went to bonneville , it's been said that every rule in the scta book has been written with someone's blood, I hope you just don't take a caviler approch write it off to a faulty perch and back to bussiness as usual

    I've logged a lot of miles in hotrods and worked at a few shops I've seen lots of springs break, few perches, coilovers 4 links, shackles, ect .. a few cost people their lives or put them in the hospital fail safes are always a good idea , the moment you put to much faith in any one thing it's going to let you down for sure

    We're all glad you walked away , I'm sure you will rebuild it even better than before
  10. inthweedz
    Joined: Mar 29, 2011
    Posts: 446


    I'm with Torana68, I would also like to see the tube go thru a drilled hole in the main steel mount bracket and welded..
    Here in New Zealand, I don't think that original design would pass the certification process to allow it's use on the road.
    Stogy likes this.
  11. Screenshot (19).png
    kidcampbell71, The37Kid and my2nd40 like this.
  12. Flat-Foot
    Joined: Jul 1, 2010
    Posts: 1,709

    from Locust NC

    Hell yes Ben!
    Hendee and Nailhead Jason like this.
  13. patterg2003
    Joined: Sep 21, 2014
    Posts: 715


    I like your spirit and really good to read that you were not hurt. It probably was a mental ice bath thinking that the failure could have occurred at a 100mph. It is good to have a dialogue on an accident to learn what can be done to make a car safer and what can be built in to make it safer in the event of failures.
    The Hot Rod magazine modified the perch and when it is in print it normally is taken to be as a knowledgeable source. These articles are printed to show expert methods for readers to follow and should be a low risk option to do similar.
    Manufacturing and selling these critical parts as castings seems totally wrong. A thought on the failure mechanism. It seems reasonable that the perch shank is tapered and that is the safest securing mechanism. A taper locks up really tight with little effort and does not rely on a fastener shoulder to get full tension on the bolt. A taper driven in tight could take the all forces and stresses with the a finger tight nut. The fastener is secured over the length of the taper to share the load over a larger area to give a secure fastening without having any localized stresses that occur at a shoulder or bolt head. Studs are used in high stress fastening rather than bolts to eliminate the bolt head stresses and shoulder failures. The perch taper pulled tight into its taper would eliminate the "bolt head" stress caused at the shoulder. Eliminating the bolt head stresses would be a critical design component. Machining out the taper reduces the cross sectional area and if the calculation was done the area percentage removed at the shoulder may be more than a one is comfortable with and would be more unsettling when compounded with bolt shoulder stresses.
    1-SHOT and RODIST like this.
  14. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 17,234


    Aren't the repro 32 perches made by Drake(?) forged? Not too expensive, and a way better place to start than with cast perches.
  15. thirtytwo
    Joined: Dec 19, 2003
    Posts: 2,641


    Speedway are forged aswell and both would be made in China

    Pete and jakes are cast and I have seen a few of them fail from shocks bottoming out and snapping the bolt on shock mount off or possibly an over tighten situation

    Perch issue aside , if that was made indestructible , I'm sure we have all seen a main leaf failure ... I have personally have had a front main leaf snap at the eyelet the exact same senerio would have played out

    Also on a similar thought pattern , I have worked manufacturing in US I know how the testing and QA work as strict as it is faulty parts still fall through the cracks , unless a person is going to test every bolt or every part they use on a build .. How do you know the true quality? Always look at potential for failure .

    My guess is even if China has iso QA there is more slipping through the cracks somehow, corruption perhaps?
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
  16. birdog
    Joined: Nov 25, 2010
    Posts: 404


    I drove out to course number two and bent my rim it wabbles like a son of a bitch now lol. It was so rough and I saw you driving yours like I drove mine. I am sure most hot rods don't go through that much rattling in a lifetime. Glad your ok.
  17. There's a really really good reason they are called suicide front ends.
    You can play Russian roulette with 1 bullet or 2 bullets. You can spin before every pull, or spin once and just pull till someone wins.

    Pan hard bar would help, walden style fail safe axle catch would help
    thirtytwo and Chucky like this.
  18. Now you're talking!
    It's a tribute to both you and Flop that the car took the brunt of the wreck, and not you. Any less quality, or somewhere else on your long run, and you might be in another place.
    You were certainly blessed!
  19. thirtytwo
    Joined: Dec 19, 2003
    Posts: 2,641


    I'm sorry but this whole bonneville was rough this year doesn't wash with me, you guys talk like you drove the baja 1000 ,

    the Midwest is full of shitty roads .. I went to New York once , shittiest roads I have ever seen the car I was diving literally fell in to a pothole 4-8" deep and was as big as a midsize car. .... On the freeway! a hotrod is a car should function as a car in a car environment , I'm not saying indestructible But pot holes shouldn't make parts fall off
    X38 and birdog like this.
  20. S#it happens,for some unknown reason it was your turn,I like your attitude and look forward to seeing the Phoenix Fly again! HRP
  21. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 30,021


    That is good to see. Too many guys would just give up and sell off what was left and walk away. On to a whole new adventure with the rebuild and possible upgrades.
  22. slinginrods
    Joined: Oct 6, 2008
    Posts: 422

    from florida

    So much good info on here from top notch builders. I have always wondered how that would hold up. I like the design that wraps around the wishbone. But it would be better if the tube went through the bracket vs welded too. This car was badass. I'm so glad no one was seriously injured. There are probably 1000s of these designs like this on the road. Food for thought. I'm sure he will rebuild and I'm sure it will be as amazing or better than the original !

    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
  23. birdog
    Joined: Nov 25, 2010
    Posts: 404


    Nobody's disagreeing with you there but if you have a faulty part it's going to make it come to the surface.
  24. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 21,178


    I would just like to elaborate on my Taper tech I discussed. I now realize that the taper on these Ford and or aftermarket Ford perchs is a sharper angled chamfer near the spring attach end as opposed to a taper over the length of the perch shank. So while it would spread out grip area I don't believe the lock I was describing from Taper would happen...Just sayin...;)

    Below is tech info I gleaned online what I was going on about...
    I drilled Taper Lock Fasteners (Left Image) for years...
    which are a really cool concept acting much like a morse taper on a drill.
    Center image is non tapered. Right image is my modded illustration
    I believe what Perches are like.
    The fancy swirls are how the fastener it effects the structure
    it contacts when pressed/driven in.

    The Blurb about Taper and Non Taper

    Regular Fasteners must be driven or pressed the full
    length of the hole when attempting interference fits.
    This procedure forces the walls outward, tending to
    promote seizure, galling, plating damage and
    broaching the hole. The result is non-uniform
    preloading. This action creates areas of concentrated
    and near zero stress. Thus the fastener purpose is defeated.
    The Taper Lock Fastener fits freely into the
    greatest portion of the hole and need
    travel only a short distance to
    become full interference, uniformly preloading as the
    walls expand. This provides longer wear and
    greater strength.This allows Taper
    Locks to be removed without damage to the
    fastener or the hole.


    In light of all that's happened it may have been as described...shit metal...
    but understanding how things work and discussion is all the good that comes out
    of bad situations.

    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
  25. real interesting info. all good stuff to understand what's going on when stuff gets altered. i myself have never really thought the stock ford design was any good. yeah, yeah, yeah, millions of cars, hard use, tried and true, did it for years. yep. i just never liked the one spring, heading in the wrong direction, and wish bones coming to a common ball socket. but that's just me.
    Stogy likes this.
  26. The tube can not go thru the bracket. The material or bracket that would wrap the tube would need be minuscule and useless to avoid contact with the spring.

    A better idea.
    The wishbone would have to be torn like a sardine can or broken into 3 pieces for this to fail. Again the wishbones were not meant for this either so it's possible to do that.
    A Substantial bat wing bracket would be better.
    Chucky and Stogy like this.
  27. junk yard kid
    Joined: Nov 11, 2007
    Posts: 2,719

    junk yard kid

    The real culprit here is poorly graded gravel driveways.

    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
  28. If it wasn't dangerous it would not be a traditional Hot Rod:cool: Hot Rods To Hell!:p Who needs two springs in the front anyway.:rolleyes: Chevy Guys :confused:
  29. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 10,702

    Atwater Mike

    The tapered seat of the perch was designed for a total 360* seat, in the vertical plane.
    To turn it on its side would introduce uncommon stress at the (now) 'side' of the taper (when horizontal, the 'taper' is ineffective, as all the weight and stress settles on the lower 120* of the said male taper.
    Another point is the uncommon tension introduced to the shank, (similar to a claw hammer pulling a nail out) the leverage resultant at the taper is a factor of +3.
    Fogger, captain scarlet, X38 and 3 others like this.

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