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Hot Rods OH NOOO! 32 WRECK!!

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by hotrodA, Sep 17, 2017.

  1. Pete Eastwood
    Joined: Jul 27, 2011
    Posts: 975

    Pete Eastwood
    Member
    from california

    I don't believe anyone is faulting Ben. I think most just want to see that this doesn't happen again.
    So, understanding what went wrong, should help preventing this from reoccuring.
     
    1-SHOT, Hamtown Al, RODIST and 16 others like this.
  2. 34ford5w
    Joined: Mar 18, 2014
    Posts: 184

    34ford5w
    Member
    from Colorado

  3. 34ford5w
    Joined: Mar 18, 2014
    Posts: 184

    34ford5w
    Member
    from Colorado

    The37Kid and Stogy like this.
  4. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 17,583

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Knowledge and Wisdom is to be respected. I partake with limited knowledge but am entitled and understand elements involved. This was very possibly not a fluke. If I was a shop or not and did something unbeknownst to proper engineering protocol I want to know and trust me those involved and/or watching this thread (now totaling 10,000) have vested interest in learning/knowing what went wrong. It is about Hotrodding and all involved including Ben. The Hamb has Many of The most Talented/Skilled Individuals in the Custom Car/Hotrod field on this roundy round we call Earth. I am comforted knowing they are here and am glad to be able to interact with them.
    One other thing this is Not to point fingers at anybody. We have to be safe as possible even though we are constantly moving forward in a period manner.

    Here's a really cool saying...just read this

    “To attain knowledge, add things everyday. To attain wisdom, remove things every day.”
    Lao Tzu
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
  5. CheatersPete
    Joined: Sep 25, 2002
    Posts: 1,264

    CheatersPete
    Member

    It was a Great car, great built, but a bad part cause the terrible accident, glad he is ok and good luck for the next step.
    Best

    Pete
     
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  6. thequietwon
    Joined: Mar 21, 2006
    Posts: 600

    thequietwon
    Member

    Nothing but sympathy for Ben, he built a bad ass car, set a goal to drive it to Bonneville and did just that. To be honest, he has probably put more miles on this car in the last 6 months than many other hot rods see in a lifetime. It's a tragedy for sure, but I have no doubt he'll bounce back.
    They were forged speedway perches, and the taper had indeed been machined off. My question is for Pete Eastwood, how would you handle the perch to bone mounting? This look isn't going away, so being the chassis legend you are I am curious as to how you would handle it?
    The Rolling Bones guys simulate the ride height and weld the perches in place. I don't think they have ever had a failure, and everyone knows those cars are driven hard. The Roadster that Chip Foose built several years back had a sleeve in the bone to match the taper of the pin and was bolted in place. Obviously the thought behind both Chip's and Ben's setup is that the perch can rotate if necessary to keep the spring parallel with the perch. Thoughts?

    Sam
     
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  7. hotrod37
    Joined: Aug 8, 2006
    Posts: 114

    hotrod37
    Member
    from Indiana

    new perch bolt.PNG broken perch bolt.PNG Trying to follow along to find the root cause here. Sorry that Ben's car got wrecked, but very glad Ben is OK. I will attach some pictures from this thread, the first is the new perch bolt. Looks pretty long. I would tend to agree that the taper machined off to a possible sharp corner would not be good. But the second picture of the broken piece looks like it didn't break at the machined edge. Looks much closer to the threads. So that makes me think it was cracked or had a flaw in the part itself that caused the crack.
    Here at work we don't check parts 100% unless they are critical safety parts. Maybe a suspension part should be considered a critical, don't think we normally do that on our cars.
     
    BAD ROD likes this.
  8. That top picture /the one that says street Rodder. is not ben's

    These are ben's pictures
    Looks like threads were cut and conformation above the taper was removed
    image.jpeg image.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
  9. If I were going to do that, (I wouldn't do that I'd copy doane) taper the bung to match the bolt makes better sense. Getting the bung thru the bone at the right taper so the perch is square to the spring in the angled bones.
     
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  10. Pete Eastwood
    Joined: Jul 27, 2011
    Posts: 975

    Pete Eastwood
    Member
    from california

    This can't be answered in one paragraph, I'll do my best.
    1. Sam, If this is a Speedway forged perch, it's probably made off shore. Maybe not the best for this application. I doubt any aftermarket perch will match the quality of the material used in an original Ford perch.
    2. In Ben's other pictures it shows the perch still shackled to the spring, & looks like it is broken right at the machined area.
    3. Turning the perch on it's side changes the way the loads are put into it. In the stock position, it is being lightly loaded sideways & is supported by the taper. Sideways it's in tension & has side loads, (it's being pulled down) & with no taper it will want to flex at the machined point. It's been weakened by machining & has more loads on it. You might get away with this with a Henry Ford perch, (maybe).
    4. Probably a fabricated, welded on perch would be best. There is no need for the perch to rotate, build it so at ride height it is the same angle as the center of the crossmember where the spring mounts & you're good.

    This only touches on the topic. There is a lot to this.

    These aren't T buckets going to the hamburger stand. These are cars that are beaten' down the highway.

    I saw in Ben's pictures what looked like cross steering & no panhard bar. If this is the case, I'll bet money that when the perch on the passenger side broke, the car made a immediate move to the right with no input on the steering wheel from Ben (you might ask him about that). Had the perch on the drivers side failed, the car would have made a move to the left.
    If Ben's car has no panhard bar, that would have added to the situation. With a panhard bar, there is a probability the car would have been more controllable even with the failed perch.

    I wish everyone on the HAMB would get a "Pete & Jake's " catalog & read the first 4 pages.
    Jake wrote & illustrated that information 40 years ago & it's still a great explanation on the basics of steering & suspension.

    All of what we are talking about would be easier to explain in conversation rather that at a keyboard.

    I'm glad Ben is OK & I wish him the best, Pete Eastwood
     
  11. 31Apickup
    Joined: Nov 8, 2005
    Posts: 2,410

    31Apickup
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Looks to be paint on the broken perch pin, doesn't look to have been fully supported on the bushing in the wishbone.

    Sent from my SGH-T399 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  12. continentaljohn
    Joined: Jul 24, 2002
    Posts: 4,696

    continentaljohn
    Member

    I took a spring hanger of a unknown manufacturer and went to see if it was hardened . This was hardened and soft enough to still machine and cut threads. If this was the case and the part was case hardened for the reason of wear and stretch like a grade 5 bolt . Thus cutting the shoulder or taper to make it flat would expose the soft inside. If this was welded to the wishbone it wouldn't matter because the soft inside is now a solid mass with the bone.
     

    Attached Files:

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  13. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 17,583

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    31 I believe you are suggesting a non rotating application.
    If not the the info below would need consideration.

    Since the premise was for the straight thru machined perch was to move and rotate with movements it seems I am assuming there would have to be a clearance hole with allowance for movement which means low or no torque so there is no bind to allow movement. In other words run the nut up and cotter pin it. With a taper you could not run it with freedom to move as Taper has lock due to its characteristics. In a clearance situation it would be locking and unlocking or not. It would to be used properly would need to be to positioned and torque applied to nut and it would stay firmly in place with no movement. Upon removing the nut it would need to been broken loose similar to ball joints and tie-rod ends. I am enjoying the discussion. Many things to ponder for sure.
     
  14. There's another part in this front suspension that (almost) carries the identical "load" - the spindle. The spindle also happens to carry the weight in a horizontal position. Place a spindle in your left hand, and a spring perch in your right...not trying to be a wise ass, just making a point.

    To make the spring perch work horizontally, make it as strong as the spindle.
     
  15. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 17,583

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    No question the load on this part which is normally run another way has been brought up. You may see a beefier designed perch in the future for this type of application. We could also see a disclaimer coming out that running them this way may veto your warranty.

    Another thing is while taper in situations I am describing there is lock with no movement. In the case of spindles there are bearings involved, grease and numerous other dynamics involved.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
  16. Torana68
    Joined: Jan 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,209

    Torana68
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Australia

    and removing the taper removed the lock thus changing the "dynamics" and how the part works in its new home, I vote leave the taper well alone, use only forged parts and crack test old parts (yes ,I do that) and find a way to stop the spring dropping to the road if all else fails (suspension tether or? )
    Out of interest only was the thread on this originally rolled or cut?
     
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  17. Why oh why would it ever need to rotate? Not one of Henry's ever rotated - ever.

    Theses goofy things aren't ment to rotate either. They are adjustable for a quick way to cheat on mock up after the fact. But I won't use these either and The tops are without taper as well
    image.png
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
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  18. I can only assume a reference to 'rotate' was once a car was on its fully loaded weight the spring/shackle would find its happy non-bound spot with the caster setting and then the thing could be tightened real tight on the taper...hopefully never to move again.
     
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  19. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 17,583

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    You are right but one of the elements surrounding this sport /hobby or ours is doing things different here and there and when it comes to chassis mods everyone who mods things is experimenting with pretty critical stuff so understanding things really is important. Many guys around here are pretty schooled in these things. I for one am not. Another example heating and bending...We have to really consider and understand what we do.

    X38 you are probably absolutely correct in what you are saying.

    Couple of other things...

    In aviation if a part has material removed by a machining method after it was processed it must be sent out for crack and flaw detection and have all applicable treatments re-integrated. This gets expensive, time consuming and ethical. It has to be...lives depend on it. Failure is not an option.

    You Know I have a vision of the Ford back in the day Engineering department testing out perches and the non chamfered one didn't cut it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
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  20. Brian Doty
    Joined: May 5, 2016
    Posts: 28

    Brian Doty

  21. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 17,583

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Eliminates perch shaft thru wishbone. Adjust tack & weld. Could be made many ways. Cool and simple...Look forward to what those that know...you know (as I am not really a chassis specialist)...more have to say. Thanks @Brian Doty. Your design? If so very clever...Tried it out yet?
     
  22. Brian Doty
    Joined: May 5, 2016
    Posts: 28

    Brian Doty


    [​IMG][​IMG]

    It's not my design I purchased them and am using these for my build. Just thought it may be a different approach for a suicide front end.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  23. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 17,583

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I am surprised it has not been discussed already. But others will chime in. It looks modern but what the heck do I know. It could be something patterned off something used on Jalopy Racers in the 40s and 50s. Again interesting @Brian Doty and your on your way to a fun ride there. This will surely expand on the conversation of what can prevent this issue from rearing it's ugly head again.
     
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  24. Hombre
    Joined: Aug 22, 2008
    Posts: 1,043

    Hombre
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Brian-- Where did you find these and who's product are they? I really like how simple they are, nice little car share some information about it if you will.
     
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  25. Brian Doty
    Joined: May 5, 2016
    Posts: 28

    Brian Doty

    https://www.rjays.com


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  26. Torana68
    Joined: Jan 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,209

    Torana68
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Australia

    nifty, might be niftier if the tube went through the bracket then welded but maybe Im just a bit picky , looks tidy :) and at $45 pretty cheap :) :)
     
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  27. Striper made good ones many years ago.
     
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  28. Gotgas
    Joined: Jul 22, 2004
    Posts: 6,897

    Gotgas
    Member
    from DFW USA

    This thing does not pass my eyeball test at all. The full weight of the car and all road forces would pull against that weld, that tubing, and that quarter inch plate. None of those materials are intended for that kind of load.

    So I looked up the part from your link, and it seems they likely intended those to be used for mock-up. They don't make that point very clear, but I personally would not drive on those.

    https://www.rjays.com/shop?olsFocus=false&olsPage=products/suicide-wishbone-spring-perches-pr

    Suicide Wishbone Spring perches (pr)
    No more cutting up spring perches to mount your spring behind your axle with Rjays Suicide Wishbone Spring perches you can simply slide our bracket on your wishbone and mock up your front end without even drilling a hole. (pr) Mounts Leaf Spring behind axle on 37-48 Wishbones must be split and narrowed to fit Model A wishbones. 1 3/4 Width
     
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  29. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,087

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    What he said^^^^
     
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  30. Gerrys
    Joined: May 1, 2009
    Posts: 327

    Gerrys
    Member

    Changing the load from compression with some side load to shear along with reducing the diameter of the shank of the part has a lot to do with the failure.
     

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