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Hot Rods OCTOBER BANGER THREAD not so frightening yet.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Weeks46, Oct 1, 2009.

  1. Crazydaddyo
    Joined: Apr 6, 2008
    Posts: 3,343

    Crazydaddyo
    Member


    I was just looking at that. Man, that looks like a blast. Love the Ts. I would love to go there and participate. Thanks for posting all of the pics and video.

    .
     
  2. In the early days a lot of cams were what was called a "bench grind". There was a lot of trial and error. I just reread an article in the old 4 Banger magazine regarding some racer that bench ground his own cams. I worked for a guy that went to School in So Ca during the depression and he spoke of this and of taking a block to the High School machine shop and pouring bearings and then hand scraping them. He said,"They only had to stay together for one run" At that time he and his friend went "Balls Out" on every run. If they blew something it meant a trip to the junk yard to get another of what ever broke and get ready for the next weekend. He once described a $20.00 engine based on a Chevy 4 block. Olds head Durant rods pistons from this valves from that and so on. Everything purchased at the junk yard. They would deck the block on a planer, I have seen heads done on a planer, bore the cylinders on a "CamelBack" drill press. Valves were ground with small hand tools. They weren't actually ground, they were recut with tools such as those available from Sears or Western Auto Valve seats were .030 wide, not always lapped but sometimes just tapped with a hammer to seat. Egge poured Al. pistons in holes in his shop floor. JC Whitney was actually a large mail order Auto Junk yard, selling used engine's, transmissions, rear ends and everything else. Shell's Part's advertised used Cragars Riley's and Winfield's. He always had a large supply of "B" shells (32 shells) But in the day they were called "B" shells. You could buy Getz "A" ring and pinion gears up to and including 6 or 7 to 1. "A" rear end were used by racers because of all the ratios available. Now most "Hot Rodders" are Dial 1 800 guys. I just finished rebushing the holes in an Al flywheel and now I'm cutting and fitting new bronze thrust in a "B" block.
    Damn, I wish I had a horse and buggy! Remember iron gets welded and everything must have clearance. Like the girl riding bare back said " That part don't even touch!"
     
  3. Flipper
    Joined: May 10, 2003
    Posts: 3,395

    Flipper
    Member
    from Kentucky

    That is a REALLY neat car! Two thumbs up for the builder / owner.

    Anybody got in-process pics of the body being built?
     
  4. Crazydaddyo
    Joined: Apr 6, 2008
    Posts: 3,343

    Crazydaddyo
    Member

    Scored some Winfield stuff this week. I have a line on an original Winfield cam so that I can put an all Winfield engine together.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  5. Bigcheese327
    Joined: Sep 16, 2001
    Posts: 6,694

    Bigcheese327
    Member

    Not meant to start an argument, but I think the gist of your post is that any hot rodder who isn’t a blacksmith isn’t a “real” hot rodder. I kinda take exception to that.

    Is dialing 1-800 to get a part somehow different than writing for that part through J.C. Whitney in the 1930s? Sure, the part that arrives is new, and not used, but hot rodders deal with what they’ve got, and today’s hot rodder has more disposable income and less time or mechanical ability to refurbish old parts. Maybe overseas competition will eventually reverse that situation, but for now it’s the case. It doesn’t make a love of vintage cars somehow less pure than it was back then.

    Further, is it worth risking antique parts that aren’t available in the corner junkyard anymore just to recreate how it was done in the 1930s? A Ford ‘banger isn’t like a 302 or 350 where one can just go down to the pull-a-part and get a new one if your hand-ground cam or garage-floor pistons let go.

    Don’t get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for those rodders and restorers who are out there completely fabricating new engine blocks and stuff like that, but not everybody can be them.

    -Dave
     
  6. Crazydaddyo, Congrats you lucky b@$+@rd!!!
     
  7. I went back and reread what I wrote and I apologize for including those who dial 1 800 for components and build a car
    What I wrote about was how it was done and how simple and unsophisticated the methods were back then. i would hope that you don't think I prefer those days. My rant was primarily about how it was done in reply to someone inquiring about cam grinding but I will admit I got carried away. But if you enter a competition and you are parked next to a guy that dialed 1 800 and ordered a complete car it can become frustrating. Bob Mccoy, who presents the "REAL McCoy" trophy at Pleasenton, once told me of the hassle's with people who had this name or that name build their car and he, Bob, had the balls to present his trophy to a "homebuilt' car. Some of the real "dial 1 800" owners once proposed a separate class for home or shop built cars.

    So I'm currently machining new bronze thrust washers for a Model "B" Ford engine. I know of a source of these parts for a Model "A" but not a "B". I had to remachine the flywheel because the guy that made it is dead If I had a SBC or a FOMOCO or even a MOPAR I would/could run down to NAPA and buy the part that I need but I can't. I can't see paying someone a few $100's to do this when I DO have the machinery to do it on. I don't know what you do or did for a living but I was a machinist among otherthings.

    You know what? I give up!
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2009
  8. Bigcheese327
    Joined: Sep 16, 2001
    Posts: 6,694

    Bigcheese327
    Member

    I really didn’t think you meant to offend, Bill. I just get a little touchy, as my ability to make money keeps increasing, but my fabrication skills remain static.

    I am getting damn good at restoring old house stuff, though, which is another passion of mine.

    As for the guys who get all testy about trophies? Completely irrelevant to me. I’m into cars because I like driving cool cars. I occasionally enter shows, but mainly so I can talk to other people about cars, as I don’t have any “real life” car friends to speak of.

    I just am concerned that the fellow who wants to weld up his camshaft is risking some useable antique parts in an effort to reinvent the wheel.

    -Dave
     
  9. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    The thing I like about Vintage engines is that I get to make stuff for it. And compete against mostly people who made lots of thier stuff. I could be making stuff for a SBC but odds are that you could buy better stuff than my stuff. But my banger stuff is pretty good and close to the banger stuff you might make. I still don't hand grind cams.
     
  10. Way to go Crazydaddyo!
    Awesome score!
     
  11. fordrat31
    Joined: Oct 3, 2009
    Posts: 380

    fordrat31
    Member
    from Palmer, MA

    Oh boy it seems as if my crazy idea of hand cam grinding has brought about a few issues! I dont see anything wrong with modifying an orignal part. These motors that I am working on most likely would have just been thrown in the woods somewhere, where they would rust away to nothing. So I feel that if I didnt do something with them they would just go to waste. Isnt it better to use something then throw it away? I sure think So! Plus isnt Bonneville all about traditonal speed? Do you really think guys in the 1950's werent modifying orignal parts?

    I think I am going to try an hand grind the cam. Whats the worst that could happen?! If I dont atleast attempt it I will always wonder.

    Mike
     
  12. Good for you! The only way any of us really learns anything is by doing it ourself. You'll learn more from your mistakes in life than from your successes. Oh and as a suggestion, don't poke the Bill... oh, I meant to say bear. Welcome noob. Luke
    P.S. If you do make mistakes, please notify the rest of us so we won't have to repeat them. Also, we tend to post our mistakes on here just for the comic relief, otherwise we'd be crying all the time.
     
  13. RussTee
    Joined: Mar 25, 2008
    Posts: 1,241

    RussTee
    Member


    Right on :) this is why i play round with bangers lets face it in their raw state a ford banger is a primitive basic machine Henry designed them that way understressed and slow a workhorse that anyone could use and fix with basic understanding but boy do they respond to a bit of tuneing and toying about it is still within reach to make your own overhead conversion with basic skills and the use of a good foundary and machine shop a 2 piece flathead head is about as basic as you can get but they work and are a lot of fun. I dont even look at my computer controled jappa but bangers just a joy to be toyed with
     
  14. Gaters
    Joined: Dec 29, 2007
    Posts: 566

    Gaters
    Member

    I'll add my post as a glimpse to the past from my banger motor. This work was originally done in the 40's at sometime and thought I'd share the simplicity and ingenuity of taking old parts and doing something different to make it work better.

    I just shared these photos with Crazydaddyo and after reading the last few posts, I thought this was fitting (get it, fitting?).

    So here is my A Banger without the side plate. I had an oil leak at the bottom and tried to replace the gasket with a new one to stop the leak, it didn't work. It still leaks for some reason. Crazydaddyo gave me a couple ideas that I am going to try.
    [​IMG]

    Here is the inside of the side plate, where it's been fitted with copper line.
    [​IMG]

    Each side is fitted with bent copper tubing to direct the oil onto the values.
    [​IMG]

    Close-up shows the brazing done on the small copper line.
    [​IMG]

    Another side shot to show how simple the idea is. The end of the line is crimped flat and folded over. The center hole is drilled through the side plate, the flattened copper tube that is crimped and folded and fastened with a bolt and nut on the inside. I replaced the old nut with a the self lock nut because I didn't want it to come loose and foul up anything if it fell off.
    [​IMG]

    I don't know if this is typical for a pressurized system but I thought it was kinda cool to see how they did it back then.

    Gaters -
     
  15. 30 A coupe
    Joined: May 15, 2006
    Posts: 81

    30 A coupe
    Member

    Hi guys,

    last year in the may banger meet I saw the 'Condor' timing cover.
    Where can I get one for the 'A' engine in my coupe? Maybe I can pick one up next januari when I'm coming over for the Grand National Roadster Show in Pomona.

    condor timing cover.jpg

    I have antother question about oil. I tried to buy 600W oil in the US this summer but they could not ship it to Belgium and I could not take the oil on the plain. In Holland I can buy 140W from an model 'A' parts dealer, he states that this is the substitute oil for the 600W. What do you English bangers use? Do you use the 140W or can you buy the proper 600W in England,if so where can I buy it?

    How do you clean out the old oil from your tranny and rear end when it is still under the car??:confused::confused:

    Thanks guys,

    Eddy
     
  16. Corn coupe
    Joined: Jan 7, 2008
    Posts: 356

    Corn coupe
    Member
    from CZ

    Mobil still make it for Steam engines etc

    http://www.mobil.com/Canada-English/Lubes/PDS/IOCAENINDMOMobil_600W_Cylinder_Oil.asp


    So I guess any Mobil supplier can order it for you?


    Drain plug in the bottom of the axle and gearbox (transmission).
     
  17. Low Fat 38
    Joined: Mar 9, 2007
    Posts: 75

    Low Fat 38
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Norton,Ma

    Model B engine swap question.

    Can unsplit "A" wishbone be used. Anybody have some mounting Pics. Thanks
     
  18. Crazydaddyo
    Joined: Apr 6, 2008
    Posts: 3,343

    Crazydaddyo
    Member

    The only way to use the A wishbone on the B engine is to use the A flywheel housing and bellhousing on the B block. To do that , you will have to modify the oil pan too.

    .
     
  19. Crazydaddyo
    Joined: Apr 6, 2008
    Posts: 3,343

    Crazydaddyo
    Member


    Eddy,

    Sawracer here on the HAMB is the one that makes those covers.
    His info:
    [email protected] 714 614 1974

    Dan

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  20. Low Fat 38
    Joined: Mar 9, 2007
    Posts: 75

    Low Fat 38
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Norton,Ma

    Crazydaddyo, Thanks for the swap info. If I use my "A" bellhousing can I still go with a T-5 conversion?
     
  21. I don't have any issues. You inquired about something and I probably included too much information for some regarding what was done in the old days. My source for a lot of information was from a former employer and friend. This fellow's father once toured with an automobile manufacturer's team that would go into a large auditorium, dismantle the running gear for 3 cars, place all of the parts in 1 pile and then 3 mechanics each with 1 helper would use the mixed parts from the pile to reassemble the 3 running gear assemblies complete in a certain amount of time. This was done to show the interchangeably of the parts. I think it was Dodge Bros. or possibly Buick. Prior to this a mechanic would receive a raw casting and finish the part himself. The common source for piston rings was iron pipe. More trivia.
     
  22. Low Fat 38
    Joined: Mar 9, 2007
    Posts: 75

    Low Fat 38
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Norton,Ma

    Crazydaddyo,I Looked at the Miller Speed t-5 Conversion kit. They require a "AA" truck housing. Any help,ideas is appreciated. Thanks again
     
  23. kenagain
    Joined: Dec 15, 2005
    Posts: 820

    kenagain
    Member
    from so cal

    Hey if sawracer doesnt have one I have an extra PM me or email me
     
  24. kenagain
    Joined: Dec 15, 2005
    Posts: 820

    kenagain
    Member
    from so cal

    HFWIW I took a cam that was grooved from roller rockers, welded it up with a wire welder, ground it with a belt sander, heated it with a torch n used hard surfacing powder on it, then parkerized it with heat and graphite powder. It worked as good as new and 2 years later still holding up. It can be done go for it
     
  25. fordrat31
    Joined: Oct 3, 2009
    Posts: 380

    fordrat31
    Member
    from Palmer, MA

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG][/QUOTE]

    Maybe a stupid question, But what is that next to the timing cover? Some kind of pump, Looks as if it runs off the cam maybe?
     
  26. Crazydaddyo
    Joined: Apr 6, 2008
    Posts: 3,343

    Crazydaddyo
    Member


    I am using the stock A bell housing with a 1/2" steel plate adapter bolted between the trans and bell housing. It works great, but it is about 2" longer then the AA bell housing set up.

    [​IMG]

    Here is the one I did for my dad's 31 p/u.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2009
  27. Crazydaddyo
    Joined: Apr 6, 2008
    Posts: 3,343

    Crazydaddyo
    Member

    Maybe a stupid question, But what is that next to the timing cover? Some kind of pump, Looks as if it runs off the cam maybe?[/QUOTE]


    It is a Magneto. The head on that engine covers the distributor hole and the stock drive set up can't be used.


    .
     
  28. fordrat31
    Joined: Oct 3, 2009
    Posts: 380

    fordrat31
    Member
    from Palmer, MA

    oooo I see. Thank you very much!
     
  29. flyin-t
    Joined: Dec 29, 2004
    Posts: 1,421

    flyin-t
    Member

    In 1908 Cadillac won the 'Dewar Trophy' for their precision of parts and their interchangeability. They used 3 running cars, disassembled them, mixed up the parts and then reassembled the cars.
    The Dodge bros. at this time were building parts for Ford and were years from starting up their own deal.
     

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