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Technical ***October 2020 Banger Meet Thread - Spooky Month & Year***

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Jiminy, Oct 1, 2020.

  1. railcarmover
    Joined: Apr 30, 2017
    Posts: 509

    railcarmover

    thumbnail - 2020-10-18T095345.674.jpg

    Best time of the year for night work...a lap around the rail yard,eyeball the outside diners in Roseville then Rio Linda for some two lane country running..cool moist evening air, the hounds want to run..
     
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  2. V4F
    Joined: Aug 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,129

    V4F
    Member
    from middle ca.

  3. railcarmover
    Joined: Apr 30, 2017
    Posts: 509

    railcarmover

    Ham and eggs...topless sport coupe,been waiting 3 months for one to be sewn..gonna miss running topless
     
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  4. poshdbs
    Joined: Feb 28, 2013
    Posts: 65

    poshdbs
    Member

    About time you tried bacon and eggs! ;)
     
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  5. railcarmover
    Joined: Apr 30, 2017
    Posts: 509

    railcarmover

    Its coming,picked up a 1936 B block,an TD04H turbo from a Kubota diesel..and a raft of V8 top loader transmissions and parts..still a two bit dealio, but I like it that way..
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
    Old Dawg, poshdbs and winduptoy like this.
  6. Kiwi 4d
    Joined: Sep 16, 2006
    Posts: 2,840

    Kiwi 4d
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    In anticipation of the rebuilt B4 with Miller OHV conversion. Yep its in for a new quadruple by pass . But i am not holding my breath . I guess good things take time. A very Very long time...... DDC490D3-F1FF-4503-9ED7-1D1030360A0E.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2020
  7. poshdbs
    Joined: Feb 28, 2013
    Posts: 65

    poshdbs
    Member

    Kiwi 4d, it's taking a long long time for me too!
     
  8. Good things come to those who wait.
    I’m sure it will be worth the wait.
    Enjoy
     
  9. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,169

    johnneilson
    Member

    Engineering at Glacial speed.......that is what it feels like sometimes.

    This is the easy part, making it actually work is another story

    Assem1.jpg
     
  10. hardtimesainit
    Joined: Jan 24, 2009
    Posts: 377

    hardtimesainit
    Member

    Hey Kiwi,
    Is that a ‘32 four cyl Ford Coupe ?
    Lets see a profile of body, eh.
    I’ve got a 5 window ‘32 with V 8... model 18.
    Thinking of putting a 4cyl into it. Wondering what all is different to do that, if you know !
     
  11. hardtimesainit
    Joined: Jan 24, 2009
    Posts: 377

    hardtimesainit
    Member

    Hey John,
    Wow....BIG BRAIN !
    Looks great, but where are the ports...in the blk?
    Why not make a double OHCAMS, while your at it ?? Chain driven ?
     
  12. Stan Back
    Joined: Mar 9, 2007
    Posts: 822

    Stan Back
    Member
    from California

    Kinda like this? . . .

    Creel's 200 MPH Motor.jpg
     
  13. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,169

    johnneilson
    Member

    Why spend time drawing the ports when they exist in the head?
    This is to go on a Gemsa 4 port.
    And or, do you mean something like this? DOHC

    IMG_0510reduced.jpg IMG_0441.JPG
     
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  14. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,169

    johnneilson
    Member

    Yeah, but that has no throttle plates, kinda hard to drive in traffic.
     
  15. Kiwi 4d
    Joined: Sep 16, 2006
    Posts: 2,840

    Kiwi 4d
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    @hardtimesainit . It looks like you know your way around 4 bangers . Some one with real seat time comparisons needs to chime in . It’s an early production 32 pickup . Was all matching numbers till we built a new B4. I think we have more $ into the B4 than any flathead V8 we have ever built. I had a strong 50 merc motor but was told by the boss, nope it’s staying 4 banger. 97EEAED0-8007-4335-A8E6-68A0696109D5.jpeg
     
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  16. hardtimesainit
    Joined: Jan 24, 2009
    Posts: 377

    hardtimesainit
    Member

    Yup that’s what alright !!
    Impressive work. Is that going on your Bville engine ?
     
  17. hardtimesainit
    Joined: Jan 24, 2009
    Posts: 377

    hardtimesainit
    Member

    I agree with the ‘boss’. Beautiful truck !
    Yeah, know what you mean about excessive banger cost -vs- flathead costs. Been there. more than once...What do you suppose is ‘wrong’ with us...lol
    Example: the original 21 stud is rebuilt (with what...60 hp ?).
    Well, what the banger will have 250 hp on low side, and high side will depend on $ spent. Ive been advised that for pump gas/streetable...250hp. See what I’m saying. Sickness, but boss is still right !
     
  18. hardtimesainit
    Joined: Jan 24, 2009
    Posts: 377

    hardtimesainit
    Member

    Last edited: Oct 22, 2020
  19. A FoMoCo 21 stud V8? OUCH! They were the bain of this Ol' Boy's teenage existence! I got run out of Blair's Speed Shop (Don Blair's Home for Wayward Boys) by the older boys. I had asked about speed equipment for "21 Studs"! I tried to build Ford flathead V8's up to a Merc 59A block! All I managed to do was make the greatest handgrenades in the San Gabriel Valley! We DID put a "21 Stud" in our '33 Tudor "Jalopy" Race Car, only because we had to by rules. It (the engine) lasted because my shitty welds broke first and I hit the wall & went on my head!
    Jalopy.jpg Not our car; but a similar result!

    I doubt if you can get much more than about 180 hp out of a normally aspirated A or B, with a flathead or OHV conversion. You have a limit of a little less than 5000 r.p.m. after which you get diminishing returns due to increased friction. More than that you'll measure your engine's reliability in minutes, rather than hours!
     
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  20. Jet96
    Joined: Dec 24, 2012
    Posts: 1,177

    Jet96
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from WY

    43BECA5E-135F-455C-8EA2-B105A708466B.jpeg Is this cool?
    I think it's cool.
     
  21. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,169

    johnneilson
    Member

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  22. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,169

    johnneilson
    Member

    John,
    I have to agree with you, except, that much power is probably not going to come from a flathead motor.
    Once you have a "C or B" crank lose the flange you will see why welding for seal is important, there is not much metal there holding the flywheel.
    I would think that the friction is an issue, however, it is probably more a function of port/valve flow and in-efficiency of the combustion chamber holding you back.
    On a standard port layout, two intake and four exhaust, by comparison a 948cc or 1016cc BMC motor has roughly the same size intake, but only 1/3rd the displacement. In race trim, these rev to 9k.

    John
     
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  23. 4bangerbob
    Joined: Jun 29, 2013
    Posts: 26

    4bangerbob
    Member
    from AB, Canada

    Nice picture.

    I stumbled across these photos on a facebook page the other day, kind of interesting stack.jpg cragar.jpg cragar.jpg
     
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  24. Jet96
    Joined: Dec 24, 2012
    Posts: 1,177

    Jet96
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from WY

    Robert Stack was a gearhead for sure-I think I read that engine was 13:1 compression!
     
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  25. railcarmover
    Joined: Apr 30, 2017
    Posts: 509

    railcarmover

    Legend...you sir have lived a full and colorful life with the humility only experience brings..
     
  26. Thanks! I really appreciate your feedback. And I still learn "Something New" every day! (At least with an 81 year old memory; I THINK it's "New"; LOL!)

    BTW, Are any of you still missing Jim Proffit (Bluto)? I sure am! Now there was a guy who could come up with something challenging ("New") seems like everyday! Each time I'd visit him (or visit with him) there'd be something I'd not known, known of or seen before! And it never was a lecture or argument; but it sure was an adventure!
     
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  27. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,169

    johnneilson
    Member

    Every week, I miss the phone calls.
    He is another one who should have written a book, all the lost information...........J
     
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  28. You're absolutely right about the fuel/air flow, John. I think the less turns and obstructions to that flow, the better. It's called "Fluid Dynamics". But when I said "Friction", I meant that of Piston Speed. I probably don't have to tell you that our "Long Stroke" Ford four bangers have greater ever increasing Piston Speeds than a many cylindered, short stroke engine. I've found that the "Bangers" I've built (mostly "Stock" dimensions; some .125 over) seem to get peak H.P. at around 4700 r.p.m. I'm sure one can get more out them using valve timing and pressure; but mechanical friction can become a real problem.
     
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  29. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,169

    johnneilson
    Member

    John,
    Yes, I agree with you on the capabilities of the technology of the times, getting up to 3500 FPM piston speed was doing pretty well. We have to remember that even the Miller motors had hellatious piston speeds in the early days because the combustion chamber/cylinder filling was not refined, especially NA. The 4 valve two cam design was just in its infancy.
    Today, this is not the case, without getting too deep into this, I can tell you that approaching 5000 FPM piston speed is not out of the realm.
    And, as the old saying goes, "The bulb that burns twice as bright burns half as long"
    John
     
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  30. Yep! The modern day alloys used in today's pistons are stunning in their abilities to handle the loads and heat generated by these astronomically high piston speeds! But like any other laws of physics; they cannot reduce the friction! Thus the only solution would be to increase the bore; and shorten the stroke. And WE can't do that! Because the architecture of our ancient engine blocks (and our "Regulators") won't allow it!

    So what's a fella to do? You put together an engine that meets your needs!

    If you need an engine that doesn't have to last but for minutes; you build it for high speed. You have a high compression ratio (you might use fuel to accommodate this). You have valve timing to bring more of the fuel into combustion.. You might even put a Supercharger or Turbocharger on to shove more fuel/air through! Then design everything to run the highest speed recommended by you piston maker. Finally put in your vehicle; and take off like the proverbial "Striped Assed Ape"! Call yourself "Lucky" if you can make more than two passes or more (or maybe all weekend).

    If you need an engine that will reasonably last a weekend or more; you have to establish limits. You raise the compression consistent with the fuel you use. Use a cam designer/grinder that understands what you want to do with your engine (Road or Racing). Limit your engine's top speed to 4500 to 5500 r.p.m., consistent with your valve timing.

    If you want an engine for a "daily driver and "Occasional Highway"; you have to cover all the bases. Start with a sound block. Hopefully one that hasn't been bored "beyond recognition" (that'll give you enough meat if you need to have it sleeved). If you don't have a complete machine shop and understand what can be done with an A or B engine; go to a shop that does (or like me: you might build a "Hand Grenade"). You'll need a "Full Pressure" oil system (which means a "B" engine). If you choose a Model A, have the shop machine the block for inserts and align bored (you'll save time and money in the long run). Don't waste time and money on modified V8 pumps and aftermarket oil pump "gizmos" Overhaul or make sure the stock lubrication system works! Up the compression ratio to no more than 7.0 to 1! Limit the "Revs" to 2500 r.p.m.! If you want to "chug along" with traffic at 55 mph,; get an overdrive! A "B" engine, the same goes for a sound block, inserts and align boring. You MUST Magnaflux your stock crank! Have the crank drilled. You can put pressurized oil everywhere (particularly the crank). I found that an external oil pump driven off the crank by a Gilmer Belt works best. For a wet sump a "Single Stage" will do. I know one guy who used a Power Steering pump, driven by a V-Belt. Use the "Rule of Thumb" for engine speed. that is 10 p.s.i. per 1000 r.p.m. A modified "B" (flathead or OHV) can "rev" as high as the oil pressure (and of course "Friction") will allow!

    I put this diatribe together not to lecture; but to keep more discussion going and to pass the "quarantine" time!
     
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