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Technical ***October 2020 Banger Meet Thread - Spooky Month & Year***

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Jiminy, Oct 1, 2020.

  1. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 2,109

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Yes, that is true to a point...
    It had AFR that wasn't shown on the sheet for the Vicky and I did some tuning. It showed me that when the power valve opened, it went fat. Blocked the power valves and it improved and got the fueling into a range that is acceptable.
    By the way, it added 0.2 HP leaning it out but it is saving gasoline out the tailpipe.
    Pulling the slotted round air cleaners with the K&N filters, added 2.0 hp and leaned it out a half a point. Tells me that I need different air filters if I want to make the engine happier when I take a road trip.
    Dropping the exhaust off the header changed nothing appreciable...counter intuitive
    I haven't been able to tune this engine, hell these guys got their rocks off on the old school stuff and they charged $60.00 per car as much time as you wanted to spend on it. It confirmed that my seat of the pants was close but I have other problems. Installing a different cam to find out I had another un identified problem....it's worth the investment in my mind. We were at 8000' density altitude when we did this too. Additionally, I wanted to know the hp and torque numbers on the Riley headed engine. I was impressed with my $300.00 engine. Riley knew what he was doing and on a 5.5:1 head.....
    It was my trip to the casino plus there are some young guys that were at the dyno/performance shop that now want old school, banger stuff. One said daily driver and I believe him
    My buddy took his car yesterday and found out that his tuning was spot on and he did all kinds of things to change his numbers. It has a Lion III head with a single Stromberg 48 it did 53hp to the rear wheels and 133 ftlbs of torque on the best pull. All his timing changes, etc made 1.5 hp change. It's nice to have a base line to compare things to.
     
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  2. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 2,109

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    It came with the head. I believe that it was a truck application originally but now you have me thinking
    Blower....dang it
     
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  3. 97
    Joined: May 18, 2005
    Posts: 1,597

    97
    Member

    There are so many different absorbers now it is impossible to compare one to the other, electric, hydraulic, hub mounted, water brake , inertia , even ones with disc brakes (useless) and probably more I don't even know about.
    I have owned a dozen different dynos since the 70s. Started with a Heenan and Froud water brake chassis dyno. It wasn't very consistent , old , tired and the local water pressure wasn't very reliable. I sold that business and bought another one with a different waterbrake dyno in the early 80s , it wasn't much better. I considered putting in a water tower to control pressure, but in the end I pulled it out and bought a new eddy current controlled Vane with an 800hp brake. I worked it hard and as far as I know it is still working today. It was accurate in the sense that it was repeatable, but in the end they are just a tool for comparing before and after or diagnosis via other external equipment like a gas analyser or a scope, the figures only pertain to that dyno on that day. The other machines have been newer and even more complicated both chassis and engine versions. The point I make is that they all read differently and a lot depends on operator skill and experience. I NEVER want to compare results from two or more different machines.
    As far as printouts go they can be a pain in the ass if the owner does not understand that reality.
    I have none of that anymore but recently acquired an old 200hp "Go power" water brake engine dyno , with no electronics and it is only for my own use. I plan to use it on my bangers , see what I want and will not care what any other dyno reads.
     
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  4. railcarmover
    Joined: Apr 30, 2017
    Posts: 499

    railcarmover

    Murray Horn makes a nice dampner,works well on my application,don't know if it will handle the demand of the track
     
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  5. hardtimesainit
    Joined: Jan 24, 2009
    Posts: 374

    hardtimesainit
    Member

    Hey Kiwi,
    Dont feel bad or gage any other banger guys by this guys acidic behavior. Most Ive talked with get hung up on or no reply from this guy. Seems not many like that in our hobby. Ive met one worse back East. Piranio works A blocks, and had several D blocks (big $) that must have been sold by now. If you had mentioned either... you may have been listened to...for a bit.
     
  6. hardtimesainit
    Joined: Jan 24, 2009
    Posts: 374

    hardtimesainit
    Member

    Hey 97 & John,
    Between the two of you, a huge amount of dyno experience !
    Can youse two say why one buys a dyno with printout capability , while most dont ? Expense ?
    I kind of can see a guy putting ton of $ into an engine, then wanting to know if if works as designed (John) ,before putting it in car, or if it will blow when tested on dyno.
    You have to pay for dyno, so be good to have written proof of dyno results ?
    If you spend ton $ building race engine, you may use or might sell, written proof of dyno stats would help ? Just seems logical to dyno test a purpose built engine before use. And to have written proof of stats of dyno testing.
    Just trying to figure out why I can’t locate a dyno with printout, without having to go to Piranio in Texas ! lol
     
  7. Jet96
    Joined: Dec 24, 2012
    Posts: 1,173

    Jet96
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from WY

    X2 on Murray Horne's damper.
     
  8. railcarmover
    Joined: Apr 30, 2017
    Posts: 499

    railcarmover

    That must have been fun,letting you lash down your cars and tweak them checking results.
     
    winduptoy likes this.
  9. blgitn
    Joined: Sep 13, 2011
    Posts: 109

    blgitn
    Member

    Hi all!
    I am building a T engine that will have a .280 cam and SBC valves. I can buy an adapter for A manifolds, but I'm interested in porting to match a model A manifolds. I am concerned about how little material there is to work with. Has anybody out there tried this or know of reference articles? Is porting a T block even beneficial, or am I better off with the adapter?
    Thanks for your help.

    R/ Roger.
     
  10. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,165

    johnneilson
    Member

    It is pretty simple, it all revolves around money. Most dyno systems have data capture capability, having the printer is simple. When you look at the labor to take a bare motor and lash it up to a brake directly, add in the cooling, fuel, throttle and mostly the connection from crank to brake it gets expensive. Development work is very time consuming, just doing simple cam timing changes can run into days on the machine.
    Dennis has done quite a bit of testing, and published his results. I am sure that he did not make a million $ from all that work. I am also sure that he will not ever get compensated completely by selling parts or motors, at least the Model "A"s. His other line of fuel and alky motors probably pay the bills.

    It is coincidental that you bring this subject up, I was having a call with another motor builder I have known for many years in sports car racing. The subject of dyno, computer and sensors came up. Dave told me that he no longer does any dyno development work for the general public. He only does break-in for full race motors to seat the seals and check for leakage. Even at that, he still has to charge ~$1200 for that work. Break that down into 3 days shop time, it is not worth it.

    There are many chassis dyno shops around with printouts, you just have to look around. Most try to entice with "3 pulls for x$" If you want to do any development, plan to spend a day there, bring your tools, parts and mechanic.

    While I was playing with diesel development in the past on chassis dyno's, I used to joke about also selling tires. When you really start to make power, the amount of rubber dust on the shop floor is impressive.

    The old saying about going fast cost money is true, John
     
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  11. I acquired one of Price's pumps years ago (when I was young and dumb) from a guy in Ojai! It was expensive; but it sure was poorly made! When it was binding as I turned it by hand; the "snake Oil" seller said: "Not a bother! It's been sitting on a shelf too long! It'll loosen up with use!" It loosened alright! It broke under use! A little forensics showed that the two shafts were not parallel and the gears were binding causing it to fail! I called Ol' Dan. In describing the failure of his product, I mentioned that he might get himself a longer boring bar! He hung up on me! Caveat Emptor
     
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  12. railcarmover
    Joined: Apr 30, 2017
    Posts: 499

    railcarmover

    Dawg busting out the Latin..after spending the better part of a day whittling on a flathead teds kit just to make it work I've come to this conclusion
    at the end of the day....


    its the end of the day..
     
  13. MJW
    Joined: Jun 29, 2006
    Posts: 401

    MJW
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from NJ
    1. PA. NJ. local HAMBERS group

    Same thing happened to me with a lion head and Holley 94. Literally ran out of gas in second gear. Electric fuel pump solved my problem.
    Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  14. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 427

    guitarguy
    Member

    I tiny bit of progress from my builder. Turn the snout of the A cranks to fit the T timing gear.

    Speedster project 229.1.jpeg

    Speedster project 230.1.jpeg
     
  15. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 2,109

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Not running out of gas. Found 20 degrees of slop in the distributor drive.
    Sent from my XT1585 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  16. V4F
    Joined: Aug 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,127

    V4F
    Member
    from middle ca.

    i had teds kit on my A & loved it . slide all 4 on command . keep after it as it truly works .
     
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  17. railcarmover
    Joined: Apr 30, 2017
    Posts: 499

    railcarmover

    I agree,had to massage the roller plate,roller pins and adjuster pins but yes,once I got it fit it works nice.
     
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  18. hardtimesainit
    Joined: Jan 24, 2009
    Posts: 374

    hardtimesainit
    Member

    Hey Dawg,
    Sorry that you found out the HARD WAY about that idiot and the junk that he sells to our hobby. Once you buy a badly made POS from good ‘OL DAN’, you’ve got two choices...neither one good! You can try to fix it or you can call him back and suffer his ignorance and his hang up ! Been there done that...BIG $ TIME ! He is NOT above lying to make $. This guy thinks that close fit is good enough and its not his fault if YOU dont know what you are doing !
    Let the buyer/sucker beware.
     
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  19. modelAsteve
    Joined: Jan 9, 2009
    Posts: 353

    modelAsteve
    Member

    There is a very good article in an early Secrets of Speed Magazine written by Wayne Atkinson about valves/ porting and flow bench testing a T. I have used the information several times. It is valid!
     
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  20. Love what you're doing! We follow each other on IG, I'm @hotrodarchives.
     
  21. Good News, The head came! I now have everything to build a full car, except my body sitting in WA, and a steering box!
    Can't wait to to tear into this engine and get it running
     

    Attached Files:

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  22. poshdbs
    Joined: Feb 28, 2013
    Posts: 65

    poshdbs
    Member

    You guys have got me worried about my build now!
     
  23. Thanks for the reply! The incident happened so many years ago (I think before this "Thread" was started) that all I did was warn some of my local acquaintances about not only the maker;but the seller in Ojai (whose shop was about 100 miles South, considered some sort of "Guru") I DID dismantle the so-called oil pump and salvage some of the hardware store fixtures for future house plumbing tasks. The rest I just broke up and through in the trash!
     
  24. Phil Damon
    Joined: May 8, 2020
    Posts: 12

    Phil Damon
    Member
    from San Diego

    Hey Guys,
    I'm looking for a counter-weighted Model A crank. The spare I have is already .020/.030 and needs a grind. Not a great candidate for counter-weights. So, I'd like to buy one already done. Can anyone recommend a place to purchase one? So far, I have only found Piranios. Is there anyone else? My ideal situation would be to find a B crank and block, but have had no luck.
    Thanks,
     
  25. hardtimesainit
    Joined: Jan 24, 2009
    Posts: 374

    hardtimesainit
    Member

    Hey Phil, maybe I can help. The
    How about a C crank....standard !
    Drilled for full pressure: mains and rods.
    NOT cheap, but the best and ready !
    I got this years ago from an old...great... Bville banger racer. Not going to use it.
    PM me.
    If I remember , it has extra flange bolt holes.
     
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  26. railcarmover
    Joined: Apr 30, 2017
    Posts: 499

    railcarmover

    The thing about being a ham and egger is the only guy I can blame for anything that goes wrong is that jackass in the mirror...

    Phil,what are your plans? you might not need a counterweighted crankshaft..
     
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  27. 4bangerbob
    Joined: Jun 29, 2013
    Posts: 26

    4bangerbob
    Member
    from AB, Canada

    Scat makes new model A counter balanced crankshafts see attached information
    and burlington did as well. http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/burlingtoncrankshaft.htm
    burlington web site is not working so unsure if they stopped

    Maybe others here can comment on the quality of these as I have only used genuine ford crankshafts
     

    Attached Files:

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  28. Phil Damon
    Joined: May 8, 2020
    Posts: 12

    Phil Damon
    Member
    from San Diego

    No, probably don't really "need" it right now. The build right now is pretty mild. I'm using a Tod Buttermore crowsfoot Winfield 7:1 head, Brierley C-grind cam, single Holley 94, Red's header and FSI distributor. But, I would like the bottom end to be stout. This is something I have been working on, and it will go on this bottom end when it is ready. It's an OHV based on a late model GM LS.

    [​IMG]OHV Head 3 by nomadpsd, on Flickr
    [​IMG]OHV Head 4 by nomadpsd, on Flickr
     
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  29. railcarmover
    Joined: Apr 30, 2017
    Posts: 499

    railcarmover

    Build the dream brother,good luck..Scat builds a nice crankshaft,forged in China but machined here.
     
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  30. johnneilson
    Joined: Apr 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,165

    johnneilson
    Member

    Phil has been working on this for a while, I like what I see in the head design.
    I would offer this thought about the SCAT crank, it has the rod throws of a Model "A", not the "B" on the "B" crank.
    The rods are pretty good but still in the smaller size. I caution this because of the small journal and when drilled for oil it weakens. I had someone bring the pieces by a few years ago and the break followed up the drilled hole.
    IMHO, an original "C" crank properly welded and prepared is the best option before going to the 5 main option.

    J
     
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