Technical *** October 2015 Banger Meet - Shadows Getting Shorter in Aus and NZ ***

There is a chapter in Les Andrews' second handbook on this modification and what is needed to make it work.

I am thinking hard about doing this, but every written source recommends that it only be installed on a counterbalanced crankshaft. I don't have the $$$ for the crankshaft, but I'm still contemplating trying it out on a standard A crank.

 

Is that the Burtz seal? If so I have used them in the past and I'm pretty sure that you put a bead of silicone in both sides

 

Brett
The lightened flywheel will work fine on the A crank.
I used a 12# aluminum aftermarket flywheel and it was great.
Maybe it would be better with a CB crank, but I can't figure
out why

 

Why not save the money spent at the machine shop and the hop up shop and start thinking like an early days 18 year old? days when there was no money, no hot rod shop down the street, no internet, no one to even tell you how ... jump in feet first and have a go.
A V8 flywheel will work, and is already lighter than the Model A one, the clutch bolts on, all that needs to be addressed is the starter motor.
You can flame cut ( or laser if you prefer ) some counter weights and weld them on.... there is a full size drawing on the net somewhere with fitting instructions. Think Bert Munro!!
You can static balance the rotating assembly yourself with a $20 digital scale , a level and a pair of knife edges and some patience.... I use a pair of blades from a wood planing machine for knife edges, cost ...zip got em for free, prior to those I used the back side of a pair of large power hacksaw blades .... Been balancing my own cranks for years this way, including Norton, Indian, Model A and flathead V8, saves a few hundred dollars every time , it is "time consuming " but works ok.. It's not like they are going to be running at 9000 rpm.
I once built myself a "dynamic" balancing machine , from some 1940s magazine plans, which used two pairs of alternator bearings as rollers and a set of ignition points wired up to a timing light to find the heavy place .... it worked , but in my opinion did not balance the crank noticeably better than the static setup .
I sold an Indian bottom end which I had balanced on my knife edges ...the new owner thought he would get it "perfectly" balanced at a specialty motorcycle balance shop . He was surprised to find that Bob ( the balancing guy) sent it back to him with only minor changes.

 

I have run a 11.5 aluminum flywheel on 2 different A counterbalanced cranks they both broke at #4 I think it had more to do with trying to hit 4 grand each time out. We no longer try to wind them up that tight. I have a Stroker ground on a counterweighted B and it seems to bend rather than break. I think it has to do with the material and the crank grinder. Local guy in San Berdoo told me he was happy if they were within .005. I use Castillo's in La Mirada. The engine came unscrewed last time. Things came loose on both ends took the crank to Castillo's he said rear main was out .015 got it backnwith a 10 10 and it was back in register and straight within .001. I might run an A crank again but it won't be counterbalanced.

 

I should clarify that last part. If I do it will be for a balls out machine. Like the old lakes guys used to say "It only has to make 1 pass!"

 

Now it is two passes
We say"it only has to last 5 miles"

 

Well the guy I was quoting would have graduated 1930 or 1931 from Inglewood High where they built their engines from junkyard parts pouring their own Babbitt in the high school shop hand scraping them in to 80% contact then put it back together and drive or tow it out to Muroc and have at it. The guy was a contemporary of Dempsey Wilson, Lyle Knudsen and so on. Memories jeez I can hear those guys now. I had the good fortune to have known some of them and hear their stories. When the SBC's came out we made lifters for them that were comparable with any cam material for Clay Smith. ( Dempsey Wilson ) by that time. They were made from leaded screw stock cased to file hard, how's that for a spec.

 

97 I like your way of doing things not rocket science but it works and you learn so much while doing it.

 

Are you at home this week? I am driving down , leaving for Chch tomorrow am . Will be in town for a few days.

 

I like it Bill, with only 80% contact there is way less parasitic friction for that all important "one good pass " . I still build my engines from junkyard parts, thats all I have...in my junkyard! My shop isn't the high school, but my furnace I use for all my casting used to belong to the engineering shop at a local high school, and it was made for them by an old NZ government department called the Ministry of Works. I haven't had a go at my own babbitt but it is on my list to make my own molds and do just that.
Do you know what the Clay Smith cam blanks were made from?

 

Some interesting info posted by A-Boned elsewhere on the HAMB regarding head gaskets for Winfield crows-foot head. Thought I might post it here for others to read. Thanks to A-Boned for the info.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/head-gasket-for-original-6-1-winfield-head-tech.995161/

 

Speaking of scraping, gaskets seal a lot better if you surface scrape the cylinder head and deck areas flat. That is something a milling machine can't do. A cylinder head looks flat until you put it on a surface plate.
Greg

 

No, but this was at a time when if you used a cam and lifter combination that were not compatible materials one would wear the other out. An example, a guy I worked with had a 53 Cad and had the Cadilac garage rebuilt the engine, he requested they install the El Dorado cam. He didn't get 100 miles out of it before it quit and the cam looked like you had ground it down on a bench grinder. Everyone was making aftermarket parts. There was no standard and no zinc in the oil. My boss AK Ferris worked with Dempsey Wilson who was running Clay Smith cams at that time. We had just started making lifters for Thomas Magnesium or maybe it was Valvee by that time. We laid the radius out on a desk It was 17 or 27" and we made a template from that and I ground it on the parting tool so they had tha radius roughed in. The company just clipped the part off tit and polished them then had them cased. Andy sent a set to Dempsey who was building a drag boat engine. The engine blew at 7 grand but the lifters were fine so we knew they worked it was a matter of surface hardness.

 

Can someone direct me to any old post regarding the use of a correct V8 flywheel & pressure plate and also the correct V8 starter? I am looking for part numbers, or years & models and a picture of what modifications are necessary to the A' bell housing & starter shaft for an extra bushing. I am sure that I can accomplish this if I "see" what needs to be done and what parts are needed for the conversion.

 

View attachment 3042228 Here are a few pics I took while converting a starter shaft and drive. They are not quite in proper order. I used a 46 flathead flywheel that started out at 30 lbs. it now weighs 27 lbs. It uses the 10" clutch. The flathead V8 flywheels will bolt right up to the A B crank I use an old A starter front flange as a drill bushing to locate the front bushing to support shaft. After I locate the hole I bore the hole out to the size of the bushing that holds the bearing in. This is a flanged bushing which is welded into the bell housing or trans adapter. You must face the front A starter flange to set the starter drive bushing back as far as possible. I then cut a locating notch 180 degrees from the stock location to put the starter cable stud up. I then assemble the flange and scribe the shaft. then you can locate and drill starter drive bushing locating hole. I mill a slot for and use a 1"x5/32' key. You must disassemble the starter drive and reverse the gear using a Bendix spring wound opposite of the stock Bendix spring. I get mine at an ol timey starter shop. You must also remove the small pin and spring from the gear. You should assemble on a block with a crank and flywheel so you can see depth of engagement . I try to get 1/4" minimum. If you timing is too fast the engine will kick back and could break the Bendix gear. You will probably have to machine boss on the inside of the A starter flange to get the correct clearance for the amature.

 

Ok, I sort of understand - but which starter are using in the end? Is that a stock model A type - I had thought that you ended up using a V8 starter which already turned the correct direction with the correct starter drive spring? Keep dangling the carrot and eventually I will go in that direction. Also, the attachment did not show up and tells me I have an error - what does that mean?

 

Sometimes I have trouble posting attachments, I just try again later and it seems to work.

 

Okay let me try to clarify the information. The A flywheel locates the starter ring gear differently that the V8 ( V8 for this purpose will be the early Ford V8) flywheel so you must convert your outboard starter drive to an inboard starter drive. In the stock version of either one the gear is forced forward or out to engage the ring gear on the flywheel. With this conversion the gear is pulled into the ring gear hence the term inboard.
Ford used the 6 volt Starter until 58 or something like that I have used the armature out of one and it was longer.
The V8 starter had more power and used a lug (possibly a stud to you) to connect the cable to. To utilize this lug you can leave it as is and the cable will be on the bottom or you can cut a new notch in the starter housing 180 degrees from the original notch so the locating pin will locate with the cable lug up.
In order to use the A starter flange you must fit it to the V8 housing. This means possibly shortening the bearing boss on the inside of the flange try to get 010 to .015 end play max. the best source for the fiber washers is a shop that repairs the old starters. You can use them to correct too much endplay. Some old timers added them to cause a preload when the starter seems to spin too fast causing a harsh engagement of the starter gear.
Then you must machine the outer face of the flange to move the starter gear back as far as possible as this will determine the amount of engagement into the ring gear. This is why it is a good idea to have a block with crank and flywheel with a flywheel housing to mount the starter to check the amount of engagement. I use a 6 amp battery charger to power the starter when checking for engagement with the starter bolted on. After you have faced this flange then you put the drive bushing on with flange on the armature shaft and scribe a line to show location. You then need to drill a locating hole for the bolt. the proper bolt will be turned down to a particular diameter and you must drill a hole in the armature shaft at that point. I center the shaft in the mill and drill down through the drive bushing to locate this hole using a drill that just clears the hole leaving a center in the shaft then drill with proper clearance drill for turned down portion of the bolt. A lot of guys use the smaller starter bolts for more clearance. They just install a 5/16 24 helicoil into the 3/8 24 hole in the bushing. It is the right size for the helicoil
You will have to remove the round nut on the end of the starter drive. You can carefully grind the 2 upset areas and use vise grips to remove. If you have a better method use it. You then turn the gear around removing the small pin and spring. Installing with the new Bendix spring. You then replace the round nut and upset material back into the notches .If you want you can put a couple of tackwelds with a welder. Use new locking washers on the bolts.
You must cut a keyway into the shaft Fitting it to the drive bushing. I cut a 5/32 keyway and make a key out of 5/32 key stock. Assemble the drive to find location.

I may have left something out feel free to ask. I am a little confused I fell a couple a days ago and am not quite right
Oh, by the way , I used a 59AB flywheel from a 46 on my last conversion with a 10" clutch. I have done this with 3 different Al V8 flywheels.

It is 11:45, time to grind some food I will add the part bout the outboard support bearing later. Some of this doesn't make sense because I may have it out of proper sequence.

Bye Bye

 

You get an error notice because there actually is no attachment.
I bolt the Trans adapter to a clean flywheel housing and bolt the A front flange on the flywheel housing . I then use a special drill made of 5/8" drill rod with a center drill in one end and a 3/8" turned down portion on the other. I drill a hole in the adapter or bell housing using theA starter front flange bushing/bearing as a guide. I then put the adapter/bell housing on the mill and locating from the drilled hole open the hole up ti the size of the bushing that will hold the outboard sleeve bearing. It is better at this time to bolt it all together so as to determine shaft length/ bearing carrier length. Marking the carrier or putting a couple of screws in to hold location I have it welded in place.
Hope this helps !!

 

So Cal F.A.S.T. Murrieta Hill Climb this weekend, Sunday November 1st, 2015.
See F.A.S.T. website for rules and Classes.

 

Thank you for everything; I printed out the pictures and copied all the information to one of my old publisher programs and then printed everything out too. I'll take it all with for breakfast study and see what develops - if nothing else, it will be great bathroom materials to just sit and think about.................. Oh well, you know what I mean! Thanks again

 

No, I don't know what you mean. If that is all the information is good for then you can wait until some one else answers you next question. There really aren't too many that have done this. I developed parts of this by trial and error and I had hoped to spare you some of the extra work. Wow, try to help someone and he is going to wipe his ass with it. Printer paper might be a little slick for this purpose!

 

Gee whiz - lighten up, I only meant that it would be great reading materials rather than reading some old issue of Speedway Motors or something else that has no particular information to learn something from. I asked, only assuming that you (or someone) knew a hell of a lot more than I did and when I received it, I did say "THANK YOU" on more than one occasion........ So I guess that in the end they are right: 'you can lead a horse to water - then you shot him ​

 

Link to the 2015 November Banger Thread http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...t-holidays-are-just-around-the-corner.996845/