The Jalopy Journal
Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by V4F, Nov 1, 2012.
thought id get a jump on it ...............
Thanks for the live link and the old test pattern.
Here is the banger link list .
For the HAMB banger newbies, here are some links to a lot of banger info:
Flat Ernie maintains the monthly link list. Every month is listed:
Banger basics. another info link list:
Post #105 of link below shows flywheel lightening dimensions
Model B rod bearing insert numbers
Engine tuning with a Vacuum gauge
Adjusting dual Strombergs:
Helpful Model A tools and tips:
Elrod's stuck head tech:
Model A generator to alternator conversion:
Gear ratio / speed and RPM calculator:
Model A master cylinder mounting bracket ideas:
Go here to read the 1931 edition of Harry Ricardo's book "The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine"
Chevy Banger Stuff
Post 198 starts a great discussion of the shape of a flat head combustion chamber
Maybe these links should be posted early in each months meeting.
If anyone knows of more, please post them.
I've been around the HAMB for quite a few years, never posted on the monthly Banger thread but keep a very close eye on what everybody has to say.Been working on a 4 Banger Flathead Lakester for Bonneville.
So my question for your comments is what is the absolute best combustion chamber design for a 4 Banger Flathead natural aspirated all out top end race engine.
The more I look the more different head designs I find, what I don't understand is after 75 plus years of Hotrod banger engines why doesn't one head design, combustion chamber design,stand out as the best. I know the intake ports, cam and valve size all affect the performance disregarding that for now what is the best combustion chamber design for best air flow and the best compression to give the best performance in an all out race engine.
I look forward to you thoughts........................!
Hi, my name is Doug, I have a problem: I like MG's. thanks.
From what I've read, it just seems like there is only so much you can get out of the L head chamber... probably why there were so many OHV/OHC aftermarket heads for the T.
ask jim briely . F.A.S.T !
I guess asking what head is best is like asking why car keep performing better each year I guess it is only a matter of time before a clever banger guy scans an old overhead and one of the latest modern cylinder design and CNC machines an updated head. lately I have seen more and more old designs reproduced using CNC legit or should we keep burying our heads in the sand?
Take a look at CR specs over time. Gas in the early days had hardly more kick than Kerosene, squeezing if tight was not really posible due to knock, week spark, and poorly sealing rings. Remember T's had those vibrating spark boxes to light of their mixture. As gas improved is anti knock ingredients, coils and mags provided a better spark, metalurgy got better, CR increased to meet those conditions and HP rose. Even the first ford V8's had CR's of under 6 to 1. in legue with Briggs and strattons, and ohn Deeres.
when they got thier stuff together CR's started getting higher and HP went up. The strokes got shorter, piston speed went up and better breating became a consideration. But this is really only a major consideration for engines which develop thier peak HP at higher rpms like >4000. Since most flatheads are long stroke and don;t like a lot of revs, it seems compresson is a more important factor that ultimate flow. Not saying improvements can't be made or would not help, but are not as easy or inexpensive to deal with as more compression, so mill the head and deck the block, make sure the valves don't interfere, then free up the exhaust and modenize the intake and carb. You can probably pick up a few ponies and still have a reliable powerplant.
If you do much more then you are looking at better oiling, stronger cranks, etc.
Anybody ever ran a 4" dropped axle with the stock brakes???????????
yup! here is what i did for mine:
Here you go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Post I did a while back.
I was running a repop Al Winfield crowsfoot, I believe it is a hard design to beat. I think it was about 8.5 to 1. We were about .5 seconds behind the 4 ports and ahead of the OHV's at the last hillclimb we ran. 1/4 mile wasn't too shabby either. There were a couple other brands that used that design.
I believe Harley Davidson actually did more research on this subject over the years.
All saints day!!
Our Lady of the Loud Pipes
That is exactly why I asked the question, the class I am running at Bonneville limits you to an L head, it seems many people that want to go faster switch to an overhead valve conversion. I would like to find the conbustion chamber design that maximises the power from a flathead.
Thanks for the reply that is exactly my point, what is the best design for a flathead combustion chamber. From what I understand the design of an overhead valve combustion chamber does not apply to the design of a flathead combustion chmber. That is exactly my plan if I could identify the best design i would CNC a new head for my engine.
I do understand why cars keep performing better that is the technology I would like to take advantage of. I don't want to stick my head in the sand I want to apply the latest and greatest to a flathead, and go Fast.
Thanks for the reply,I see a lot of the Winfields running at Bonneville, I have also heard that the crowsfoot design is one of the better designs.
I have heard a lot about the Harley heads but I have not seen any 4 Banger heads with that design. I wonder if the Harley design would work on a Ford A or B engine?
There seems to be a lot of ideas on speed heads for Model A's and B's but not a lot facts or dyo information on different head designs.
Patina steve maybe you should have a talk with Pat Gary about the head he produced appearing in one of the 2011 F.A.S.T. mags just remember it is part of a whole package he produces he is BHT8BALL here just what you are talking about
Did you meen Ed Winfield
None of the commercially available ones !! They are all second best!! The heads they sell are the ones that didn't work out....the keep the good ones for themselves.
The most successful designs are top secret and NEVER
EVER shown to anybody else!!
In essense you have to do your own research and take a punt...then develop over a number of years....or expensive dyno sessions.
I have seen people at Bonneville cover the block and wrap their heads in towels as they came off the engine....so no one can see the combustion chamber.
of all the ones you can buy over the counter,
You could do way worse than starting with a Winfield crowsfoot .
If you are really thinking about a CNC billet head , once you have a chamber design in mind , how you deal with making the water jacket... internal cooling passages is a bigger consideration than machining the outside ...combustion chambers etc.
The Harley side valve set up is much different then the Ford A/B set up. Much of the Harley chamber is in the block. And the valves are much closer to the cylinder. The key to better air flow in the L head is the shortest shot from the valves to the cylinder. Interestingly enough there is a good discussion on this topic over on Fordbarn. Here is a link to the thread:
I posted some pictures of the Harley there.
You might be better served discussing this topic with someone that has had success in JR drag racing. They will have more in common with the Ford design, and they will be less reluctant to share their development. Other then Bonneville, the JR dragster program is the most competitive flathead racing left in the world.
You should also go to the list of live links that I post at the start of each monthly meet. There are two links that deal with this topic. One is a link to Harry Ricardo's book. You should read this. The other link is a discussion from the May of 2010 banger meet about improving the Ford combustion chamber and air flow.
This is a topic I would like discussed more. If anyone has input, please keep the topic going.
for all you big valve fanatics on here, what is the minimum clearance for valve head to head to allow for laminar flow over and around the valve head?
on a flat T motor I am fond of around 6:1 compression for a combination of combustion temp, chamber volume and engine longevity.
Going to envision something more on the effeciency side rather than all out power, so there will be a few engineering compromises. Have a couple ideas I want to try out too.
Thanks for the responce I have talked to Pat, very impressive work, I will be visiting him this month.
Thanks for the link!
Curious if anyone has dealt with The Early Ford Store in San Dimas, I believe,. I am looking for a cylinder head and it seems the Snyders 6.1 heads are quite a ways out. The Ford Store has ads for the alum. Winfield. Just curious if anyone has dealt with them and/or used one of the repop Winfields. Appreciate any replies. Thanks.
Don't know about the head, (got mine from Snyders) but the Early Ford store has been reputable in my dealings. Cool place indeed.
Separate names with a comma.