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Technical ***November 2018 Banger Meet - Weather Changing***

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Jiminy, Oct 31, 2018.

  1. V4F
    Joined: Aug 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,207

    V4F
    Member
    from middle ca.

    not to butt in : my heart & prayers go out to all affected by the fires , north & south . best wishes
     
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  2. Agreed Steve, this season has been awful. Prayers for All and Families.

    On a side note about Eubanks, I never remember him talking about doing a block. He might have been talking about the Terry Burtz project which was about the same timeframe. I know where the crank tooling is, possibly the rods also. California is probably not the place to have castings done...........
     
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  3. Jiminy
    Joined: Oct 25, 2012
    Posts: 401

    Jiminy
    Member

    There is a place in San Jose called Kearney Pattern Works and Foundry but their web page has expired - their archived web page is https://web.archive.org/web/20180804154802/http://kearneyfoundry.com/

    No idea about the quality of their work.

    I think there is also a place in Paso Robles which casts banger parts but I cannot find the link right now. Probably dozens of other foundries lurking in the shadows.

    Jim
     
  4. denis4x4
    Joined: Apr 23, 2005
    Posts: 3,781

    denis4x4
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Colorado

    Edlebrock has been going short run A parts at their foundry for several guys that post here
     
  5. Iron?
     
  6. lake_harley
    Joined: Jun 4, 2017
    Posts: 1,528

    lake_harley
    Member

    I'm a 4-banger virgin and began tearing down the engine from my '31 today. The plan is a thorough inspection, freshening and parts replaced as needed, and some mild modifications with the only internal ones planned being a Brierley "C" grind cam, modern valves and adjustable lifters.

    Thought I'd see what kind of clearances I had on the rods and mains before complete disassembly. My plan/hopeis to leave it as a Babbitt engine rather than the expense of going to insert bearings. Using plastigage I had clearances all over the place. The first rod was at about .0015", the second didn't even compress the .001-.003" range plastigage strip. The rear main was at about .0035 or .004". There's a rather thick brass-looking shim between the rod and it's cap on most of the rods.....about .030" thick according to my dial caliper that has historically been quite accurate. Is that thick a shim at all typical to find, or does it suggest that this engine, which was a running engine with no strange noises, has some significant issues? One thing, that probably concerned me the most was a lot of side play on the #2 rod. The babbitt that is formed over the sides of the rod and cap is quite de-formed and even had one loose edge that could be peeled away with a fingernail. It had a significant amount of side play, but the rest of the rod side clearances seemed really good. I know I should have actually checked them with feeler gauges, but I didn't, but I still can.

    Is it possible , or acceptable on any level, to replace that one (most) errant rod with a fresh re-babbitted rod? I do plan on having the rotating assembly balanced so I'm thinking all of the rod weights could be matched during that process so the one "new" rod's weight shouldn't be an issue. Or, would it be that much better to buy a newly re-babbitted set of rods or have mine re-worked? The Babbitt on the other rods looks quite good and can probably be re-shimmed to ~.002" that Jim Brierley suggests in his book for a street engine.

    Are the rather thick shims (~.030", in most or all rods....I can't remember) something I should be concerned about too, or is that common so that the shim pack can be reduced as clearances change?

    Other than those concerns the inside of the engine looks really good. It's quite clean overall and the pistons, looking at just the bottoms, appear to be like new. The piston tops, and the head's combustion chambers are black and quite sooty. Sorry, but I didn't wipe across the soot to see if it was a really oily film or perhaps just really running rich on fuel.

    I won't scrimp on parts that are needed for a successful engine, but I'm not wanting to throw money away and just replace everything.

    If I've left out info needed to give me some direction, please let me know. I'll say "Thank You" in advance.

    Lynn
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2018
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  7. You know! I misspoke! In my last reply about Dan Eubanks' heads I wrote "BLOCKS"! I should have said "HEADS", "BLANKS" or "CASTINGS"! I apologize for the confusion, John! Nevertheless I still don't know how many castings, if that is what they were, that Dan made! They very well could have been machined (though I doubt it).
     
  8. Crazydaddyo
    Joined: Apr 6, 2008
    Posts: 3,205

    Crazydaddyo
    Member

    To the best of my knowledge, this is the only head that was finished.

    The biggest problem Dan was having with castings was core shift that created thin sections / holes when the castings were machined.

    This head and piston combination was set up to run a the lakes, but never made it.

    .
     
  9. hardtimesainit
    Joined: Jan 24, 2009
    Posts: 606

    hardtimesainit
    Member

    No apologies necessary here , as there is much posted that is cause for confusion, eh !
    I'll attempt to add to this by stating that Eubanks called me about $ for one of his heads in approx. 2004.
    In 2006, Eubanks OHV Head ran on salt in the coupe 'LikitySplit' for close to record (99.73mph). Pete Richardson , owner. Subsequently, coupe was sold to a foreign buyer.
    2013 , Eubanks gave un-machined casting to a new home, where it resides yet. The first machined Eubanks (runner) went to another home .
    That , of course , accounts for two castings. Eubanks then sold the third to a member (crazydaddo) here.

    I'll add that Eubanks made a TOTAL of three head 'castings' for his only attempt at head making , from available info.
    TWO of these castings were machined , one not machined and one run on salt ! And that's the way it was folks !!

    The combustion chamber on Eubanks head(s) was not faithful copy of Cook head, from which it was 'copied', but his idea of what that should be. There is another such head being sold with another 'version' of the famous Cook head...but they all look alike/similar !
    My opinion based on more than one person, is that Dans main problem was not porosity or the like. His main problem was CASH flow. Seems most of us know what that is about.
     
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  10. lake_harley
    Joined: Jun 4, 2017
    Posts: 1,528

    lake_harley
    Member

    I have some more follow-up questions regarding my first Banger Build that I had questions about in my post #66 above.

    Regarding shims for setting the clearance on Babbitt mains and rods; I've seen shim kits from several companies. I've seen them offered in thickness' so .016" and .032". When I used Plastigage to check the existing clearances when I disassembled the engine there were all kinds of various thickness shims in different locations. The .016" and .032" shims that are available I believe are referred to as "laminated" shims? Does that mean they are actually built up with layers of thin shims and perhaps can be "peeled away" to build an appropriate shim stack? Many of you who have been around Model A engines for years probably have your forehead in the palm of your hand now thinking "what is this yahoo doing building an A engine". Well, I'll admit that this is a whole new world to me even though I'm 66 years young, but I've never worked with shimming clearances on main and rod journals. Thanks, in advance, if you can offer some guidance.

    Lynn
     
  11. junk yard kid
    Joined: Nov 11, 2007
    Posts: 2,719

    junk yard kid
    Member

    Yes there is shims that can be pealed away. I don’t think plasti gauge works well with babbit.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  12. rwrj
    Joined: Jan 30, 2009
    Posts: 674

    rwrj
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from SW Ga

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  13. barrnone50
    Joined: Oct 24, 2010
    Posts: 562

    barrnone50
    Member
    from texas

    I got a real good video from Diablo A in California. They used the tinfoil method pretty informative.
     
  14. callcoy
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 148

    callcoy
    Member

    Lake Harley
    I don't think anyone answered your " Replacing One Rod" question, it is a normal thing to do get move service out of an other wise serviceable engine. Mike your crank and order accordingly. You need to give your mains a close look, the rear main because of "Clutch Pressure" can suffer from excessive end play. bad cases are cracked thrust surfaces. The rear also supports a #63 flywheel plus a clutch, look for cracked or missing babbit.

    The center main needs close inspection, the A crank is a little whipy and this bearing takes a beating. Can't really comment on the tin/alum. foll measurement thing, sounds good, I have always used Plastigage.

    You have the engine down, you might want to check your rings, wouldn't take much to glaze break the bore and put a set of rings back in if the ring lands are tight enough. A repair/service manual is a good investment right now!

    Good luck and welcome to the wonderful world of Model A's.
     
  15. callcoy
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 148

    callcoy
    Member

    El Mirage Nov. Banger Meet Results

    The final meet of the year was held Nov. 10th & 11th with six Banger cars in six different classes competing. Unfortunately due to teething problems and one accident four cars posted no times. There were at least three other car owners in attendance but they were unable to bring their cars. Jim Brierly drove up for the day Saturday so we were able to get an update on his new Flathead.

    Creel-Kendall V4-VFCC 142.696
    Lattin-Stevens V4F-BVGALT 118.215 New Record
    Nelson-Creel-Neville V4F-GMR No Time
    Stewart Family Racing V4F-GS No Time
    Larry Madole V4F(?)-VGC No Time
    Harold Hannemann V4-VFALT No Time

    I think SCTA listed Larry Madole car as a flathead, but he was trying to iron out the bugs with his modified Price overhead.

    Saturday was great after waking up to 16 degree weather, which iced several cars and broke a few water pumps. Sunday was a repeat of Saturday temperature wise, a little windy which stopped runs a couple of times, but it got worse and after 20-25 runs the wind caused SC TA to cancel the meet.
     
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  16. Interesting meet to say the least, was there on Saturday.
    Lets see, as I observed;
    Creel/Kendall made a pass, not quite on the tune.
    Lattin/Stevens, bumped record by 2ish, at least that was the signal from Bill.
    NCN had a turnout, Murphy showed his face.
    SFR had a tumble, driveline or trans lockup, rolled car, Driver OK, shaken, chassis OK, body will need attention.
    Madole, not sure why recorded as FH, was running OHV, turnout, minor problem with seat to steering wheel interface.
    Not sure what happened to Hannemann.
    Not sure about car count, pretty good conditions.
    Eddies chop shop turned a pretty good lap at 292 and change. I was on the initial inspection of this car, very innovative and sleek. Not to mention a polished alum body.

    J
     
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  17. callcoy
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 148

    callcoy
    Member

    John;
    Thank you these guys were all near you!
     
  18. lake_harley
    Joined: Jun 4, 2017
    Posts: 1,528

    lake_harley
    Member

    I have yet another question about Model A engine rebuilding. Because of the worn condition of the stems on my stock style valves, I plan on installing stock diameter, "modern" valves and the associated springs, retainers and keepers. Also, with the reground cam I have in process by Jim Brierley I'll be adding "split-bolt" style adjustable lifters. I have been wondering if hardened valve seats will be necessary? Some research (Fordbarn) has turned up the opinion of many that since the Model A engine was designed before the time of leaded gas that hardened seats were not necessarily needed. Only one or two of the valve seats in my block are questionable, in my opinion, whether they are in good enough condition to be cleaned up with a mild touching up of the seats without them becoming too recessed in the block. If my machinist agrees that they'll clean up OK, is it reasonable to not put in hardened seats? If it's felt hardened seats are necessary with today's gas, should all eight be done or perhaps just the exhausts? FWIW....the build is intended to be a mild performance, maybe in the 55-ish HP range.

    Thanks, in advance, for sharing your experience.

    Lynn
     
  19. Lynn,
    Opinions are just that, opinions on the web.
    If at all possible to keep the existing seats and just recut them do it. If seats are to be installed, do the minimum amount. I have seen seats installed by machine shops not familiar with the Model A/B motors cause all kinds of crack and water issues. Since you are going to "modern" style valves and spring retainers, you might want to investigate having valves made to just increase the size enough to prevent doing the seats. Manley and others offer Stainless valves at reasonable prices. Talk to Jim about springs and guides also.

    John
     
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  20. lake_harley
    Joined: Jun 4, 2017
    Posts: 1,528

    lake_harley
    Member

    John.....your post triggered me remembering something I saw on Dennis Piranio's website just a couple days ago, a .060" larger valve that would put the valve seat out into new metal. That would likely solve any issue of receding valve heads and get me the modern valves that I want. If I looked at the pricing info on Piranio's site correctly the prices for all of the parts to do the .060" oversize valves, including guides, springs, retainers, keepers and lifters, it is virtually the same as a stock sized valve components. Seems like a no brainer to me.

    I'll also say that when I talked with Dennis late last week he really took the time to listen to what I had in mind for my engine, rather than just rushing into a litany of what he wanted to do, like several other Model A engine people I've talked with. His willingness to have a conversation made a lot of points with me.

    Thanks

    Lynn
     
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  21. Lynn,

    Dennis is Top Shelf equipment, you will not be disappointed.
    I see him at some of the races during the year, always ready to chat and share some adult beverage.

    Regards, John
     
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  22. V4F
    Joined: Aug 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,207

    V4F
    Member
    from middle ca.

    crank & rod shims ……… I found it easy by heating one end of the shim pack with a bic lighter . they tend to peel up . now I said "heat" not "burn"
     
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  23. lake_harley
    Joined: Jun 4, 2017
    Posts: 1,528

    lake_harley
    Member

    Does anyone have experience with, or comments about using a smaller crankshaft pulley, like several companies offer, on a street Model A engine. Any negative effect from a crankshaft problem standpoint from a smaller diameter or lower weight at the front of the crank? Although HP gain would be negligible, another possibility would be a larger pulley on the water pump to slow it down. Leaving the stock crank pulley and increasing the pump pulley diameter would serve a double purpose of slowing down the pump yet keeping up the RPM on my generator/alternator.

    I only ask this since I need to replace my crank pulley anyway since it had been broken in the "V" belt area and brazed. Since I'm replacing the pulley anyway I wondered if there was a slight benefit to be had by going back to something other than a stock pulley.

    Thanks

    Lynn
     
  24. V4F
    Joined: Aug 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,207

    V4F
    Member
    from middle ca.

    I have a hormonic balancer with a smaller pulley . spins alternator faster , water pump faster , but no ill effects . smaller belt obviously ………...
     
  25. Crazydaddyo
    Joined: Apr 6, 2008
    Posts: 3,205

    Crazydaddyo
    Member

    I've used a small pulley on all of my hopped up bangers. Mainly to slow the water pump down. No problems with charge rates. Had to run a thermostat to get it to run warmer.

    .

    .
     
  26. V4F
    Joined: Aug 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,207

    V4F
    Member
    from middle ca.



    I have a hormonic balancer with a smaller pulley . spins alternator faster , water pump faster , but no ill effects . smaller belt obviously ………...

    ** ooppss I said that all upside down . crzdad has it correct . slows all down but no side affects ……. thanks ..
     
  27. lake_harley
    Joined: Jun 4, 2017
    Posts: 1,528

    lake_harley
    Member

    Thanks, gentlemen. Since I posted that question this morning things might have taken a significant turn about of my plans. Just when I thought I had a build plan and had figured out and what parts I was going to buy from which business I had my block crack checked by a machinist friend of mine. Sure as the world, the block is cracked from down in the exhaust port, across the valve seat, across the block deck and down into the cylinder on the two center cylinders. I put a call into a local gentleman who I found out has a couple Model A engines. I guess I'll see what comes up, but this sure threw a wrench into what I thought was a good plan. With a different block I'd be losing my engine number as well as starting over evaluating the Babbitt, bore size and condition, and on and on. I was so looking forward to making actual progress!

    Lynn
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
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  28. Crazydaddyo
    Joined: Apr 6, 2008
    Posts: 3,205

    Crazydaddyo
    Member

    If you use a different block, have your machine shop mill off the number and stamp your number on the new block. It happens all of the time.

    Sent from my SM-J320P using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  29. Crazydaddyo
    Joined: Apr 6, 2008
    Posts: 3,205

    Crazydaddyo
    Member

    When replacement blocks were available from Ford, they were available with out numbers stamped on the pad. B blocks were not stamped. The serial number was stamped on the top clutch housing.

    .
     
  30. 28dreyer
    Joined: Jan 23, 2008
    Posts: 1,167

    28dreyer
    Member
    from Minnesota

    I would watch that hormonic balancer, I hear they have side effects that grow over time. I would opt for the harmonic balancer and program in some traditional bluegrass.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018

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