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Technical Not a typical Step Notch question

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 57MoreDoor, Nov 19, 2016.

  1. 57MoreDoor
    Joined: Jun 12, 2010
    Posts: 110

    57MoreDoor
    Member
    from CC,TX

    I'm planning on installing a step notch. It's too large for my liking, I don't need 6 inches of horizontal axle clearance so I got the idea to shorten the sides that will weld to the frame. I'm kind of thinking it might not be such a good idea anymore, can I get some opinions on this?? It'll be butt welded and the plate on the back will be welded and rosette welded. ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1479574620.047830.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1479574671.254299.jpg
     
  2. dumprat
    Joined: Dec 27, 2006
    Posts: 2,153

    dumprat
    Member
    from b.c.

    Not the best place to have. A weld of any sort. Get new plates cut that are one piece and the right size.
     
  3. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 9,062

    Tim
    Member
    from Raytown Mo

    For conversation sake where do you figure the ideal place to cut and weld this would have been?

    I'd think I'd cut it at a 45 on the rear facing side. The bottom of the 45 would be where the new inside corner would be and the top of the 45 would be the new outside corner would be.

    Then fish plate that.

    IMG_4341.JPG

    Rotate 90 deg in your minds eye ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2016
  4. jackalope
    Joined: Mar 11, 2011
    Posts: 687

    jackalope
    Member

    From a structural standpoint, one piece is better. If you have to have two pieces, a diagonal is better than a vertical butt joint. Think of shearing forces. Straight up/down vertical joint will shear easier than a diagonal joint just by design. Obviously a joint of any nature will need fishplate


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  5. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 15,784

    gimpyshotrods
    Member

    As an engineer, welder, and oft welding inspector, I'd say butt-weld, grind flat, and then weld a diamond-shaped fish-plate on the inside and outside of all four plates involved in this setup, and don't look back.
     
  6. 57MoreDoor
    Joined: Jun 12, 2010
    Posts: 110

    57MoreDoor
    Member
    from CC,TX

    I would really like to do that and not look back. I think I'd still have the worry in my mind though, just knowing it's a welded piece rather than solid. So I'm stuck on wether to go through all the work of butt welding and keeping straight and grinding and fabing fish plates, or buying plate and cutting new pieces.

    I know in the end it's up to myself but I do appreciate everyone's .02¢
     
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  7. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 15,784

    gimpyshotrods
    Member

    Give Alex Gambino, at Gambino Kustoms a call. I think that his step notches are small at the top, if I remember correctly.
     
  8. dan31
    Joined: Jul 3, 2011
    Posts: 939

    dan31
    Member

    Maybe I'm missing something but if you want to reduce the height of the "hoop" section of the notch ,why are you cutting it at the top of the hoop and not the bottom of the legs?
     
  9. dan31
    Joined: Jul 3, 2011
    Posts: 939

    dan31
    Member

    Horizontal clearance -just saw that ,sorry.
     
  10. cretin
    Joined: Oct 10, 2006
    Posts: 2,855

    cretin
    Member
    from S.F.V. CA.

    If that weld, properly done would worry you, then why doesn't welding them on in the first place worry you?
    Do as Gimpy said an you won't ever have a problem.
    That being said, I do see some porosity in your tacks, so make sure you eliminate whatever is causing that before welding in solid.
     
  11. A good weld is a good weld and suitable for most any use in most any place.

    If I were planning on a shitty weld I wouldn't put it there.
     
  12. 57MoreDoor
    Joined: Jun 12, 2010
    Posts: 110

    57MoreDoor
    Member
    from CC,TX

    I did coat with weld thru primer that contains zinc. Could the paint be one reason for porosity?
     
  13. 28TUDOR
    Joined: Jan 25, 2007
    Posts: 419

    28TUDOR
    Member

    I wouldn't think twice about using those plates. I would put the cuts opposite of each other (outer to the front, inter to the rear) and weld it up.
    28
     
  14. 57MoreDoor
    Joined: Jun 12, 2010
    Posts: 110

    57MoreDoor
    Member
    from CC,TX

    I'm not following (outer to the front, inter to the rear)
     
  15. 28TUDOR
    Joined: Jan 25, 2007
    Posts: 419

    28TUDOR
    Member

    My bad I was looking at the drawing instead of the picture. The cuts are off set in the drawing but center on the actual metal. Start welding!
     
  16. 57MoreDoor
    Joined: Jun 12, 2010
    Posts: 110

    57MoreDoor
    Member
    from CC,TX

    Another thing I wanted to add, for welding I'm using Lincoln innershield NR-211, wire you can get at lowes or home depot. This is gas-less wire. Would it be better to use solid wire with 75/25 mix?
     
  17. 57MoreDoor
    Joined: Jun 12, 2010
    Posts: 110

    57MoreDoor
    Member
    from CC,TX

    Sorry to overkill the post but can I get some thoughts on if this notch idea? Pretty much like a regular step notch, but squared instead of pyramid shaped. The bottom of my notch will be right at the top of the frame, like in the rough drawing, the curve represents the frame, and the circle the axle. The square sides would be solid 1/4. Just throwing out a different idea...
    ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1479873912.571847.jpg
     
  18. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 15,784

    gimpyshotrods
    Member

    Always.
     
    snopeks garage, BigChief and hipster like this.
  19. is there a particular reason you need a tighter clearance where the axle passes thru the frame?
    Nothing to much structurally different in your sketch but it requires more precision, testing, mock up for the axle swing and movement.

    The flux core wire should yield the same weld with caveat that it's done correctly.
    There's Volumes of theory on what correctly means
     
  20. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 15,784

    gimpyshotrods
    Member

    I suspect he's trying to avoid cutting the floor.
     
  21. 57MoreDoor
    Joined: Jun 12, 2010
    Posts: 110

    57MoreDoor
    Member
    from CC,TX

    I just don't want to cut more floor or metal than I have to, and don't really need that excess axle room. The axle will only be about 2" into the frame when laid out in the rear. After the cut on those pieces, the inner top part is now 4", then add the 3/16 plate on both sides and it'll be a little over 3.5" Then tapered downward it'll open up more of course.

    Uncut, it would originally be 12" total length on top fully assembled, but after I'm done it'll be close to 8.5-9" A lot more work than I intended, but if I had left the notch as is I believe it would have cut into my backseat brace.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2016
  22. Ok so you need only a moderate depth, basically just the height of the rail, correct?
    Wouldn't something like this flavor keep the strength, get the depth, and minimize the fore and aft width and keep you out of the seat braces?

    Brown is your frame to be cut and red are the new plates to weld in
    image.jpeg
     
  23. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 9,414

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    A properly done full penetration weld ground smooth to blend in with the rest of the plate and no one will know it has been welded but you.
    And it will be as strong as a plate that was cut out without the weld.
     
  24. okiewelder
    Joined: May 10, 2008
    Posts: 215

    okiewelder
    Member
    from central Ok

    I am no engineer but, used to lengthen and shorten wheelbases on big trucks for a few years. We always did verticle V groove but welds and fish plate the welds with either a custom made glove either inside of frame or on the outside of the frame. We would weld and bolt the gloves in.
     
  25. gene-koning
    Joined: Oct 28, 2016
    Posts: 1,084

    gene-koning
    Member

    Clean off the weld through primmer. Weld the seam, grind it flat, and plate it on both sides with a diamond shape fish plate, welded all the way around the fish plates. Then prime and paint it.
    I would have preferred the one piece curved piece like 31vicky showed because sharp corners tend to permote stress cracks, but you have what you have. That area is usually not a high stress area anyway. Gene
     
  26. 57MoreDoor
    Joined: Jun 12, 2010
    Posts: 110

    57MoreDoor
    Member
    from CC,TX

    That's exactly correct, just the frame rail. That would be a good design with a curve but I might just go with a notch that has a flat top. I'm also going to install a c-channel bridge connected with square tube on top of the notch.

    Thanks for that! I knew it would probably be good to butt weld and plate. I even beveled the edges for a V. I'll probably just end up cutting new solid pieces though.
     
  27. Be mindful of the space the pumpkin will take up. It will probably hit your bridge
     
  28. 57MoreDoor
    Joined: Jun 12, 2010
    Posts: 110

    57MoreDoor
    Member
    from CC,TX

    Thanks for that. I'm certain I'll have to do some trunk floor work to clear the center. I'll double measure for the bridge.
     
  29. jackalope
    Joined: Mar 11, 2011
    Posts: 687

    jackalope
    Member

    WRONG. Bad advice. Hate to call you on this but never grind structural welds or assume the weld is as strong as the base metal. the heat affected zone itself will affect structural integrity and could lead to a failure.
    Best advice is design your notch, "v" the groove, get a full penetration weld, then fish plate as suggested. Your end result will be stronger than base material.
    I will assume you are not weldor by trade or you wouldn't ask the questions you're asking, so if that is the case, I would do what you can to get flat horizontal welds. No way do you need to "learn" vertical UP welds on a frame. That requires a LOT of practice. Figure out a way to move and position the frame to allow you to weld on a "flat" surface. Your family and other motorists will thank you.
     
  30. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 9,414

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    :D:DI think I know welding well enough to know that a weld seam like that would be perfectly fine for the application.
    I've only been welding for a little while :D:D
     
    Morrisman likes this.

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