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Nostalgia Super Stock set-up help needed

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by HatGuy, Sep 3, 2011.

  1. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,257

    oj
    Member


    You have either a race car or a street car - can't do both as it'll have gender confusion.
    The changes that will make it go down a track and get some et are not street friendly. The guy i suggested you talk to has a similiar combination - he is in the tens. Did you pm him yet?
     
  2. HOTRODRUBBER
    Joined: Aug 27, 2005
    Posts: 770

    HOTRODRUBBER
    Member

    Was anyone hooking at Mokan? Do they use any kind of track "BITE" on the surface? The guy already said his "POSI" was not working, what about gearing? I have plenty of similar cars runing 1.60 60ft times on same tire. Not always the tires fault boy's!

    HURST RACING TIRES
     
  3. HatGuy
    Joined: Sep 16, 2010
    Posts: 137

    HatGuy
    Alliance Vendor
    from Arkansas

    Rearend fixed, recarbed, tuned and headed for the Duck Drags...expect a vast improvement...Tires are GREAT! Had it out on the deserted road in front of the house and nearly pulled the front...no burnout, dirty pavement and all! Will post times next week...

     
  4. HatGuy
    Joined: Sep 16, 2010
    Posts: 137

    HatGuy
    Alliance Vendor
    from Arkansas

    Thanks to all for the advice and discussion...the HP is a moot issue at this point...just proves that engine builders lie...so we are working with what we DO have. With the recent 2nd downturn in the economy we have opted to do minimal changes to the car until Spring...We have a friend who runs a vintage oldsmobile and he has joined us for some fun. We went back to a Carter Carb with some mods, MSD, different plugs, wires etc and have a vastly improved throttle response and launch...we also serviced the rearend and axels, now the little jewel is working as it should. We unbanded the backside of the leafs and are trying some different Cal-Tracs adjustments...going for air gap as opposed to preload. Mounted better front shocks and are playing with the rears as well. Not regeared yet either. After the Duck Drags we will see, but as to the tires and other things...you have to understand, we actually want the car to look vintage and expect vintage level performance...The Hurst tires have the best look and the radial body lets the tire perform much like a radial but look like a pie crust should look...not the tires fault...just inexperienced wrenches wading through it all and trying to explain why we don't want to go as fast as possible, just as fast a possible and still stay looking period correct...we even hid the MSD set up from view. Thanks again!

     
  5. k9racer
    Joined: Jan 20, 2003
    Posts: 3,091

    k9racer
    Member

    My question is .. Has any one ever put a drag car on scales like the round track guys use.. If so I would like to know the set up percentages left to right on rear and same on the front. Do you preload the chassis? I know about round track cars but I would like to know if any drag racers use wheel scales. Any replys would be appericated as I am assembling a straight axel gasser and a altered.. Thank You. Bobby...
     
  6. Reindeer
    Joined: Mar 3, 2005
    Posts: 224

    Reindeer
    Member
    from Finland

    I suggest you should record your finish line rpm to calculate that you may have torque converter or trans slipping under high load.
     
  7. BSL409
    Joined: Aug 28, 2011
    Posts: 555

    BSL409
    Member

    I have a 62 Biscayne 409 Super Stock and hand the Hurst slicks and could not get my car out of high 12.68 with them. I went with M/T 29.5X9x15 and my best with those was 11.41 et at 120.48 mph 60ft 1.737 and know going to a 29.5X 10.5x15 slick, SO you will be never have a good 60 ft with Hurst( JMO)
     
  8. "I tell 'ya what . . . . . I'd lose the Cal-Tracs and just go with a set of standard Mopar Super Stock Rear Leaf Springs. Chrysler put TONS of development time & money into those things and they work fantastic . . . . . and have for over 40 years now. When you installed those Cal-Tracs, you put something on that needs to be fine-tuned for optimum efficiency. The Super Stock Springs are a total No-Brainer . . . . you bolt 'em on and then just forget about them. Those Chrysler Engineers really knew what they were doing and it's crazy to stray from their proven recipes. You should try to locate one of those "MOPAR Chassis" books that Direct Connection used to put out. It has recipes for engines, trans, rears, and suspensions for any E.T. level you want to run. "

    Give that man a cigar!!!!!

    Caltracs are for Mustangs and there is a reason why they were developed and work there. I have built many SS set ups and own a 63 426 car right now with my own set up. It is all covered in my book Old Reliable. Also drop your shift point 500 RPM. Probably good for 3 or 4 tenths right away. I have compared the old SS set up to leaf link and Four link as well. Same car. The fellow changed because everyone else did. Never bettered his short time over my SS leaf set up.
    Caltacs on a Dodge SS set up is like putting a back brace on a belly dancer. Just cause everyone else does something is no good reason. Just be glad they do . Leaves you with a clear advantage.
    We ran 1.52 shorts on ten inch 30 inch tires in a 4150 race weight car. It left so hard my nephew had to quit riving it because of severe neck problems. Homebrew SS spring on STOCK (Pay attention here!) hangers Extra leaf and 1/2 in Pass side. Comp Engineering adjustable rear shocks for Mopars. Pinion Snubber 1/2 inch from floor. WORN OUT (did you get that?) front shocks and a lot of work with rubber bump stops on the front control arms.As soon as car reaches nose up vrs nose down bump stop should be compressing and shortly after wheels should lift. Car should sit 1/2 inch nose high at rest measured at front and rear of rocker panels. Torsion bars. Six cylinder machined entire length 030 thinner. That will get you a nosebleed when you launch.
    Don
    OR book is still available in DVD format BTW. Whole chapter on Chassis set up.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2011
  9. Judd
    Joined: Feb 26, 2003
    Posts: 1,894

    Judd
    Member

    Bobby
    I'm not sure if this will be of any use but this is the weight on the Comet at an IHRA event with me in the car (225 lbs). LF=804, RF=806, LR=733, RR=682
    These weights were before the roll bar, 4" forward alter and 4" raise on the front strait axle. If I do not preload the ladder bars the car will jump 1/2 car width to the right on second gear shift. (stick car)


     
  10. I scale all my open wheel cars. The rail at the left is 425lr, 425rr, 425lf 429rf. If I had put the battery on the left of the trans instead of the right I think it would have been perfect. Now I just lean my head to the left so I can see the left side mounted tach (Not really but that what I tell those who ask) I have weighed the door cars end to end on big scales but now since I have done several I just go ahead and do what i know I will halve to do anyway. A line on the tire and a video camera once you hit the track will do more for you than anything else. If front end is lazy or slow traction will suffer. I want the front wheels up at least an inch or so ASAP . Then I know all the weight is on the rear.
    Don
     

    Attached Files:

  11. any up-dates want to hear what changes you made and the results
     
  12. HatGuy
    Joined: Sep 16, 2010
    Posts: 137

    HatGuy
    Alliance Vendor
    from Arkansas

    Thanks to everyone...didn't make all the changes yet, but here is where we stand.

    1. HP is definitely an issue...nowhere near 650...more like 400 if that.
    2. Got the car to hook at Tulsa much better, but still not launching hard.
    3. Changed from the Holly to a Carter and got insane throttle response now. Also 2 inch spacer.
    4. Added MSD and Champion J63Y Race Plugs Gapped at 46 , spiral wires. Had Mopar Elec. Ign. before. Kept same dist. Mech. Adv. and recurved for narrower range.
    5. Unbanded rear half of leaf springs...made a difference, but not good with the Caltracs...now car lifts at launch. (see pics)
    6. Experimented with preloads and shock settings...best was with 1/2 turn on the Caltracs preload and rear shocks at 4.
    7. Timing advance was from 28 to 35 total and best was 35.
    8. 104 Octane fuel
    9. Air temp was 72
    10 Got the SureGrip working right...launched straight. Tried launching from idle, at 1500 and at 3000. 1500 seemed to work best.

    Best 60 ft. - 1.881
    Best 1/8 ml. - 8.177
    Best 1/8 ml. speed - 94.14
    Best 1/4 ml. time - 12.902
    Best 1/4 ml. speed - 103.18

    Next planned is the SS Springs and check of Torque Convt. and 6cyl torsion bars...Where to find TB anyone?

    Also wondering about gearing...maybe we need to go deeper?

    Going to experiment with tires...the Hurst hooked when really heated.

    We may mount a pair of M/H just as a test 26/10.5X15 is all that will fit. They won't work with the vintage thing, but they might give us a better idea of potential...we're not far from MOKAN and they still have a couple of TT events we could try before snow.

    Then gradually go after the finer points mentioned previously until we find a combination that works. Right now we are going after the MPH and getting it to launch hard.

    I was fairly proud of my rookie reaction times....314, .430, .090, .278, .339

    Best,

    HG

     

    Attached Files:

  13. That is a real nice car. Your frontend action is good. Rear a bit constipated but you already know why I think. .
    Launch with as much RPM as the TRACK can take. If it will only handle 1500 then 1500, If it will hookwith 3000 go for 3000. Your timing is correct. 32 to 36 is the window, I like 34 but as long as it isnt detonating your fine.
    What Motor do you have and what cam?
    You are making progress. Just keep at it.
    Don
     
  14. Sounds like you are having fun with the car. I think you meant to type 84 MPH in the 1/8th? 94 MPH in the 1/8 would make me think you are running mid 11's in the 1/4.

    I think before you mess with gears or converter, I would install a tach and write down where you are shifting the car, and your rpms thru the lights. Then I would try shifting higher and lower to see if the car picks up or slows down.

    I'd also compare notes with a Mopar guy and see if your shift points make sense. If the car doesn't pull in the upper rpms (as compared to other similar combos) you might need a new/better set of valve springs.

    If your combo for example pulls to 6200, you could run a 4500 stall (just an example) shift it at 6400, and it will drop to maybe 5000 and give you a solid 1000 rpms to run thru. But it all depends on your power curve and what it likes.

    Your 1.8 short times either show a lack of leaving hard off the line, or spinning like a mofo. If you are dead hooking, you are actually almost bogging. I think running 1.45 - 1.55 60 fts and still driving having it drivable on the street is achievable.

    I had an OT combo, made 425rwhp on dynojet, thru 4800 " converter, 4.10 9" and 28" slicks. 3300 raceweight I shifted at 7k. I ran 10.92@123 on motor on a 1.48, and 10.008@133 on a 1.38 on 150 shot. That combo made maybe 500 hp at the crank or engine dyno.

    I'm guessing you make 375-400hp.

    Have fun, you can always build a stronger motor down the line or spray it with a 150 and kick some ass.
     
  15. Also a 3500 stall is pretty small, and no way a 3500 stall is gonna go 1.5's unless you are running at 2500 raceweight, which you are not.

    Me personally I'd figure out where the motor likes to be shifted, and then I'd look at running more converter. I have no idea where stuff like that peaks but if it was 6200-6500 I'd not hesitate to research a 4400-4800 stall. I'd leave the gear alone unless you are looking for every little bit. The gear might net you 2 mph more trap speed but I'd be more focused on the ET first. Remember tq converters for racing are bigger, loser, and flash higher to get you in the best part of your power band. If you make strong avg hp in 5500- 6500 you don't want to be leaving the line at 3500, you want to leave higher enough to where you have a good 1000-1500 rpms of usable power. Hope that makes sense.

    My 10.9@123 would have been maybe a 10.89@125 with a 4.30 gear as opposed to a 4.10 but I liked driving the car on the street.
     
  16. rlsteel
    Joined: Apr 10, 2005
    Posts: 422

    rlsteel
    Member

    Try a looser converter 4000-4500, put the holley back on. the 6 cyl bars are a good addition. real slicks. car should run high 11,s low 12,s. the cal trac are just fine. RLS
     
  17. tuki
    Joined: Nov 11, 2006
    Posts: 187

    tuki
    Member

    that 60ft seems awful light for 600hp..i assume youre spinning lke crazy..i have a 65 NSS Hemi coronet..it dynoed 780hp..it weighs 3650 with me in it.my best 60 is a 1.47..im running S/S springs with old koni double adj sjocks in the rear..no pinion snubber.31x14.50 MT street ets..ditch the Hurst tire if you wana go fast..my car is period as it gets..Hemi Crossram car.but i wanta get down the track so i run a real tire..i have 90/10s up front lifts the left front tire and puts it right down..i wanted to run Caltracs to see if it would go in the 9s just havent..they work on all stockers across the country..id run them..so id try a good tire and a good front shock to put weight to the rear..you may need a better converter also..ive gone 10.20s@132 on pumpgas
     
  18. tuki
    Joined: Nov 11, 2006
    Posts: 187

    tuki
    Member

    this sounds about what i was saying..needs more converter and a real tire
     
  19. A good converter by the way should not slip except at stall. I use Frank Lupos Dynamic and nothing else. He supplied me a 5100 Stall for the Charger race car. MPH rose 3 mph and finishline RPM dropped by almost 500 RPM. Some converters are made for stall by clearancing them which makes them sloppy and wastes RPM . Lupos are very efficient. In the Charger it was mathematically around 3 %. The previous an 069J was over double that slip and had only 4000 stall. The one in my street driven 63 is a 9 inch Frank made for me and is a 3800 stall. Unless I did the stop light brake ,high stall thing you would NOT know this car has a high stall converter in it. However if I Torque it up and Give er you will be rubbing your neck the rest of the day. The slant six rail has an 8 inch from Frank . it is 4700 stall.
    You can hear it lock up just after launch when coupling speed is reached and yet I left at 4700 and shift in the low 5000s . Converters are really misunderstood. There is little you could buy that would return you more Et improvement and mph than one of Franks converters. On the Charger I gained 4 tenths. I had a friend who in his 6 cyl altered gained a whole second over another Trans companies 9 inch converter. He also told me he dropped about 600 RPM and gained MPH as well. I forget what the MPH gain was and he passed away this sprng so I cant ask him. Your gearing while not perfect maybe is not far off depending on your tires and what your cam duration at 050 is.
    This is stuff I learned the HARD way.
    Don
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2011
  20. HatGuy
    Joined: Sep 16, 2010
    Posts: 137

    HatGuy
    Alliance Vendor
    from Arkansas

    1969 440
    Purple Shaft Cam .284°/284°- .528''/.528''






     
  21. HatGuy
    Joined: Sep 16, 2010
    Posts: 137

    HatGuy
    Alliance Vendor
    from Arkansas

    Actually that 94 mph is right off the time slip. That is why we are perplexed...shoud be running 11's but is just not pulling in third. As to the short times, we were still spinning quite a bit, and found that by roasting the tires and launching soft we only spun for the first 5-10 feet. Have a Monster Tach w shift light, but I failed to note the rpm through the traps. Had the light set at 5000, 5500, 5700 respectively and did the best in the higher range. We were trying to leverage the torque...will try moving progresively higher...we top out at about 6600.

    Best,

    HG


     
  22. HatGuy
    Joined: Sep 16, 2010
    Posts: 137

    HatGuy
    Alliance Vendor
    from Arkansas

    Anyone know of a source for 6cyl torsion bars. Mancini has trick bars but they don't list them as 6 cyl.
     
  23. wald1
    Joined: Apr 17, 2009
    Posts: 6

    wald1
    Member
    from france

    Hi, Firm Feel (www.firmfeel.com) sell .82 diameter torsion bar for B body,
    I think 6 cylinder are .83 .
    Hope this help.
     
  24. 5673 RPM is max power. Gear for that which you are not far off. You should shift there too. If you want to upgrade PM me.
    Don
    Sorry I was half a-sleep . That is for a solid lifter. A hydraulic of the same specs, a good one would pull to 5905RPM. Depends on what heads. Early 440s 67 would quit long before that even if ported. 906s might make it but would have to be real well done. 452s would make it easily with a good port job (181/214 valves. ). So would max wedge and any of the aluminum perf heads now around.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2011

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