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Nostalgia Super Stock set-up help needed

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by HatGuy, Sep 3, 2011.

  1. HatGuy
    Joined: Sep 16, 2010
    Posts: 137

    HatGuy
    Alliance Vendor
    from Arkansas

    We are trying to get our little Polara to do a bit better before the Duck Drags in Tulsa on Oct. 23rd and we have been researcing the Ramchargers teams of the mid 1960's for specific info on their set up. We found some stuff in MOPAR forums, but a lot of it is for cars being set up to run fast without regard to the Nostalgia element of the equasion. We want to keep the car as close as possible to what they did in '63-'64 so if anyone has any details we would be grateful for the help.

    1963 Polara 440, 440/727/8.75 , Chassis tied in, engine chained down, Hurst front runners/8.5 Hurst slicks, Calvert racing shocks (adjustable rear), Caltrac Traction Bars, Sure-Grip 3.91, HP (somewhere in the 600's) according to the original builder, Redline around 6500, Race-Prep Holly 750 DP - best run at HAMB Drags 13.36 @ 100.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Craven Moorhead
    Joined: May 4, 2005
    Posts: 141

    Craven Moorhead
    Member
    from New Berlin

    There has been a ton written on the caltracs, what does it 60 foot, the weight and converter you are running?
     
  3. Jimmy2car
    Joined: Nov 26, 2003
    Posts: 1,707

    Jimmy2car
    Member
    from No. Cal

    Your Hp level is well under the 600 posted, more like 280+, guessing that the thing weighs about 3500 w/driver
     
  4. HatGuy
    Joined: Sep 16, 2010
    Posts: 137

    HatGuy
    Alliance Vendor
    from Arkansas


    I will have to retrieve the timing slips from the truck...way out back, but it weighs in at (have not scaled it-calculation only) 32-3400 lbs. 3500 stall.

    Off the line with the Pie Crusts is spins like crazy, and with the vintage rear end, although it launches straight, we don't seem to be getting the same grip on both sides...burnouts at stall are one wheel until we release, then both spin.

    We are thinking about spooling the rearend, unbanding the springs aft of the axel and cranking the torsion bars all the way up in the front. Have been running the shocks at max for slower extension with a 1/4 turn preload on the caltracs. We've been told to get a set of drag springs for the back too, but darn it, if the Ramchargers could run 134 on stock springs then we should be able to run better than 100...got plenty of power. Upper end is not what it should be, but a friend is building a carter for us to replace the holly with attention to that detail. Also thinking about going deeper in the gearset.
     

  5. HatGuy
    Joined: Sep 16, 2010
    Posts: 137

    HatGuy
    Alliance Vendor
    from Arkansas


    If you used a calculator you would be correct, but the engine was dynoed.
     
  6. stlouisgasser
    Joined: Sep 4, 2005
    Posts: 671

    stlouisgasser
    Member

    I tell 'ya what . . . . . I'd lose the Cal-Tracs and just go with a set of standard Mopar Super Stock Rear Leaf Springs. Chrysler put TONS of development time & money into those things and they work fantastic . . . . . and have for over 40 years now. When you installed those Cal-Tracs, you put something on that needs to be fine-tuned for optimum efficiency. The Super Stock Springs are a total No-Brainer . . . . you bolt 'em on and then just forget about them. Those Chrysler Engineers really knew what they were doing and it's crazy to stray from their proven recipes. You should try to locate one of those "MOPAR Chassis" books that Direct Connection used to put out. It has recipes for engines, trans, rears, and suspensions for any E.T. level you want to run.
     
  7. 1934coupe
    Joined: Feb 22, 2007
    Posts: 4,493

    1934coupe
    Member

    I believe they also ran a pinion snubber an ajustable piece that was just off the floor. We ran that set-up on a 68 GTX 440 with a 2800 stall converter, Racer Brown cam (Chrysler recommended) torker manifold with AFB and 4.88 gears in late 60s early 70s and the car ran 12.80s. This was street driven.

    Pat
     
  8. badshifter
    Joined: Apr 28, 2006
    Posts: 3,331

    badshifter
    Member

    Have you called John Calvert at CalTracs? He ALWAYS provides help and advice, and it's always good. Big name, little name does not matter. You should call him first. He'll go over your whole combo. Also, go to www.classracer.com register and ask for help. That's all they do, class racing past and present.
     
  9. overthehill
    Joined: Nov 22, 2010
    Posts: 9

    overthehill
    Member

    6 cyl torson bars

    mopar s/s springs

    imperial rear shocks

    mopar adjustable snubber

    make sure you have 1/2 inch fuel line

    next time the engine is out think about putting in a 67 cross member, it moves the engine back
     
  10. Future Stock
    Joined: Oct 8, 2010
    Posts: 71

    Future Stock
    Member

    If that 440 is making that much grunt, I'd think your 750 is way to small and most likely killing the top end charge. I'd also look at more rear gear(430 maybe) to get all of that mass moving of off the starting line.
     
  11. Craven Moorhead
    Joined: May 4, 2005
    Posts: 141

    Craven Moorhead
    Member
    from New Berlin

    I still would like to know what it 60 foots.
     
  12. inflate front tires
    back off rear brakes
    relocate battery to rear

    cut weight?
    remove excess interior
    rear seat out
    kick panels out
    carpet out
    all but one window crank
    heater core out

    plastic headlights
    aluminum bumper brackets
    5 gal.s gas max

    cool the fuel

    it was very very hot in kansas!

    when do you run next?
     
  13. rlsteel
    Joined: Apr 10, 2005
    Posts: 435

    rlsteel
    Member

    Me thinks you are trying to put 2011 horspower (600?) to old timy tires.Try some real tires that hook.You will(if you dial them in) not do any better that your caltrac,s. RLS
     
  14. Why the long shackles ... Bet your getting some spring wrap up1
     
  15. drag_punk
    Joined: Mar 6, 2001
    Posts: 99

    drag_punk
    Member

    Seems like you need more gear, that's the way they did it in the sixties. Keep up the good work.
     
  16. HatGuy
    Joined: Sep 16, 2010
    Posts: 137

    HatGuy
    Alliance Vendor
    from Arkansas

    I tell you one thing, the CalTracs really polarize folks. Some say good, some say bad, but the SS Springs are definitely worth trying. I will try to find one of those Chassis Books...that's a great idea...thanks a million.
     
  17. HatGuy
    Joined: Sep 16, 2010
    Posts: 137

    HatGuy
    Alliance Vendor
    from Arkansas


    Forgot to mention that we have the pinion snubber on the car already, but trying to adjust all the other variables...well you know. The gearing is also a definite...really appreciate the help.
     
  18. HatGuy
    Joined: Sep 16, 2010
    Posts: 137

    HatGuy
    Alliance Vendor
    from Arkansas


    Awsome post! Great points! Thank You!
     
  19. HatGuy
    Joined: Sep 16, 2010
    Posts: 137

    HatGuy
    Alliance Vendor
    from Arkansas


    Ya, we found that out the hard way. We are running 88's primary and secondary with no power valves. We weren't sure of the tuning so we backed of to smaller jets and it suffered greatly. Went back to the 88's and did better. Maybe this new carb will help. Going deeper in the gearing seems to be a no brainer too. Thanks!
     
  20. honeyman
    Joined: May 24, 2010
    Posts: 330

    honeyman
    Member
    from Steiner

    63/64 they'd have run 413/426 wedge, but certainly with cross-ram dual quads, so they were moving a LOT more gas through. I'd guess at least 4.30 or better gears. Remember, they (Ramchargers) developed the "super stock" leaf springs...they were the factory team. Very few cars "launched" any better than MoPars early 60's- early 70's.
     
  21. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,257

    oj
    Member

    Try to PM 'Dads426' he has the Bob Banning 'Bounty Hunters' NSS and can give you some real world info.
     
  22. Go back to the source & call the people that were there and that actually did it in the 60's!!!

    Call Herb McCandless at "Herb's Parts" 302-376-8508 or Larry Pontnack at Mo-Par City 815-732-7751. Herb is a really nice guy and is still in the restoration parts business, Larry used to run a Pro Gas Imperial and is still building restoration & racing engines for Mopar fans.

    I do agree that the old Mopar Performace books would also be a great place to start. I have a set that I've had since the 80's and if you want them, we can work out a good price for them. I'd stick with only what the Chrysler engineers tried & tested though... Super Stock springs, pinion snubber, 6 cyl torsion bars, etc..... Don't try to mix too much noew stuff & old stuff. IMHO...

    Good Luck!!!
     
  23. storm king
    Joined: Oct 16, 2007
    Posts: 1,991

    storm king
    Member

    Speaking as someone who ran an original '64 max wedge Dodge 330, I'd like to jump in here.
    First, congrats for trying to do it right. So few do.
    Second, whether CalTracs work as good, better than, or the same as Mopar S/S springs doesn't matter, they are a very modern set up, and not nostalgic. Now, as to everyone's OPINION about how well they work...Mike Cotton, of B.A., Ok, has two virtually identical Duster's, with all of the same powertrain, which he and his wife race in NHRA competition nationally. One car runs Cal Tracs, one runs Mopar S/S springs. Why does he do that? Because he's run both cars with both set ups, and one runs better with the Cal Tracs, one with the Mopar S/S springs. No two cars are the same, period. I've never run Cal Tracs, and I never will because, as you noted, the cars back in the day ran very fast with factory parts. It's what has always seperated Mopar from GM. Run GM parts in a race car, parts break. Go to your Mopar dealer (I'm speaking of back in the day) and buy a race car that is bullet proof. The aftermarket industry exists today mostly to keep GM stuff together, and it forced the other makes to do the same in order to keep up.
    Anyway, back to springs...Mopars current S/S springs are made in Mexico. They are O.K., but not the quality of the originals. Eaton used to make the springs for Mopar, and will make a set for you, exactly the same as the originals, with better material, tighter QC, for about $400., or twice what the cheap Mexican ones cost through Mancini and others. I have contact info if you need it.
    Ours always hooked better with the springs unclamped, but I can't speak to Cal Tracs.
    A pinion snubber is only recommended for a 4 speed car. Most guys don't know that. Most guys who offer advice aren't even Mopar guys, and only get their info from magazines and here-say. We never ran one; ever, in our automatic super stocks. It was only when we went to pro stock in the first couple of years that we added a Sox and Martin adjustable snubber when we went to a four speed.
    Lastly, I don't care one whit about modern technology and engine building, a 440 is not a max wedge. A max wedge had the most amazing ports of any B motor. They were high compression. They were awesome! (Although your current issues are more chassis related than power related). Does sound like better tires might help, but even so I find it hard to believe, if you are running even a halfway decent tire, like the Radir's , made by M/T, that you couldn't hook up on today's overly glued tracks. We ran in the 11's back in the day on clean tracks, with 7" wide tires, spinning all the way through first and sometimes some of second...
    Good luck, and thanks for trying to make it right.
     
  24. HatGuy
    Joined: Sep 16, 2010
    Posts: 137

    HatGuy
    Alliance Vendor
    from Arkansas


    Finally got the slips out of the truck...1.89
     
  25. Helped a friend with a NHRA legal stock 383 4speed 69 charger in early 70's, six cylinder torsion bars, cheap frt shocks tall narrow front tires inflated to 60 psi, wheel alignment adjusted with the frt raised 1" above height at rest, gear lube instead of wheel bearing grease,9" M&H slicks,5.13 gears, stock posi,loose rear half of the spring(unclamped), slapper bars with adjustable snubbers. big gas line, cool can, iced intake between runs ended up running in the finals against W/S Pintos for stock eliminator more than once
     
  26. FEDER
    Joined: Jan 5, 2003
    Posts: 1,269

    FEDER
    Member

    The Mopar chassis book says a well prepared chassis in a car that does 99.5 MPH
    should run 13.20. So I would say with the current 60 foot You show with a sticky set of
    race only slicks You would be very close to what Mopar says.
    More gear and more converter would help 60 foot alot. But nothing is gonna help your MPH. I race a 440 Dart that runs consistant 10.0s Been racing it since the early 90s.
    Its went through alot of changes over the years. We started with a ringed and bearinged 440 with exhaust manifolds and it ran low 13.s. The biggest ET gain We got back then was a 430 gear and a 4000 stall converter. WOW 12.60s but the MPH changed VERY little. All the info above is good, but just going to s/s springs aint gonna do it.
    Im gonna say youre engine builder flat out lied about HP. Youre motor aint no way 600 HP. My 10.0 car is about 620-630,it does 133 mph.
    Back when I was running a single four I ran an 850 DP with 88 jets all around. Just for kicks we put on a vac sec 750 that was new. Car ran damn near the same within a tenth and 1 to 2 mph. And some could have been it was later in the day and it warmed up. How bout some engine specs bore-pistons used -cam -cycl heads- valve size-intake
    carb. Again MPH dont lie. Post what ya got it will help us help You more good luck FEDER
     
  27. Craven Moorhead
    Joined: May 4, 2005
    Posts: 141

    Craven Moorhead
    Member
    from New Berlin

    Looks like she could stand to improve at the 60 foot. I have a 440 in a 3000# 65 A body, SS springs, 2800 stall and no where near 600HP with a 355 gear slapper bars and it will 60 @ 1.5 and run in the 12's I do have a posi unit in it. I know I need more gear looks like you could probably use more also, a posi unit would also help and some different tires I am running a 9" wide MH racemaster and it hooks pretty well.Thats a cool car you have there if you haven't already put it on a diet and let us know how it improves as you tune. I want to go into the 11's with mine.
     
  28. HatGuy
    Joined: Sep 16, 2010
    Posts: 137

    HatGuy
    Alliance Vendor
    from Arkansas

    Wow, great reply! Thanks so much. I will contact Herb and Larry, nothing like getting it from the source...and I will PM you on the books...that is a big YES!
     
  29. HatGuy
    Joined: Sep 16, 2010
    Posts: 137

    HatGuy
    Alliance Vendor
    from Arkansas


    Yup, they are already off. Thanks much!
     
  30. HatGuy
    Joined: Sep 16, 2010
    Posts: 137

    HatGuy
    Alliance Vendor
    from Arkansas


    Only wish we had a 426, but this motor is strong, and it's in the car...soooooooo. And the gears and ss springs seem to be a consensous too! Its all a process, and this helps a lot. Stay in touch!
     

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