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Projects No spark from coil, no start

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Mister E., May 4, 2018.

  1. Mister E.
    Joined: May 4, 2018
    Posts: 64

    Mister E.

    Both green are hot and both are leading to key ignition switch.
     
  2. Moriarity
    Joined: Apr 11, 2001
    Posts: 12,524

    Moriarity
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    I repeat the only wire that should be on the neg terminal is to the distributor


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    rfraze and Mister E. like this.
  3. Ok then , only one of them goes to the plus + positive side of the coil.
    One problem found.

    Next figure out which one belongs on the coil.
    The one coming off the blast resistor- do you have a ballast resistor
     
    Mister E. likes this.
  4. If you need to know why I'm asking the questions that I'm asking you, then you should read an ignition book. If you read that ignition book you'd not be having a problem.

    The questions I'm asking have important answers.
    Each one is important, the question and the answer.
    The test I laid earlier out has detailed results that will point directly to the problem.
    Finding the problem here should take every bit of 10 mins if you have to stop, wash up and pee in the middle of it.

    So pay attention, read exactly the question as written without interpretations and answer the question, all of them. The answers with be short and simple.

    Go read post 33 after you've disconnected the offending green wire from the - side of the coil. That wire was back feeding the breaker plate, you said that breaker plate was grounded and that means you should have blown a fuse . So something is FOS, here.

    This is a 5 min deal.
     
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  5. Mister E.
    Joined: May 4, 2018
    Posts: 64

    Mister E.

    Yes I do have a ballast resistor.
    I think somebody tried to do a bypass or something cus it looks like both green wires were rigged to the key switch. I'm just not sure which goes to where for what
     
  6. Mister E.
    Joined: May 4, 2018
    Posts: 64

    Mister E.

    Maybe this will help
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Moriarity
    Joined: Apr 11, 2001
    Posts: 12,524

    Moriarity
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    Hey MisterE this is how it should be wired. Just hook it up like this and start it up. But for crying out loud haul it home to work on it


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    Mister E. likes this.
  8. Mister E.
    Joined: May 4, 2018
    Posts: 64

    Mister E.

    I will wire it up as shown and when it starts then I will check the clutch brakes and all else.

    Thanks. Will not be able to work on it til Tuesday. Will let ya know how it goes then
     
  9. That helps me understand you are looking at a mess, and being a rookie it might be difficult to get what you want. Probably more than your ready for this month.

    Start at the ballast resistor.
    Does that have power to the ballast resistor?
    Power in and and out of the ballast resistor?
    Is one of the new green wires you had on the coil ran over to the ballast resistor?
     
  10. VANDENPLAS
    Joined: Dec 14, 2009
    Posts: 786

    VANDENPLAS
    Member

    Wow that’s a bowl of spaghetti !

    One wire on the + side of the coil from your battery
    The other from coil - to dist

    Make sure your points plugs wires etc are clean.

    This is not a permanent circuit but just to get you running.

    Get it running and get a service manual
     
  11. I remember being a little kid and seeing an engine started on out if the car and resting on the ground. I was completely amazed that it didn't need a car around it or any of the crap to run. I asked with disbelief how such trickery was possible. The simple explanation was laid out and I asked a few questions. So I said, if it will run on the ground, it should run in anything right? Yes it will. Do you think we can fit that engine in my tractor?
    image.jpeg
     
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  12. sevenhills1952
    Joined: Mar 14, 2018
    Posts: 315

    sevenhills1952

    That "you should have positive on both sides of the coil with the points closed" is probably what screwed him up. You DO not
    want light on or 12 volts on neg. coil side when points are closed.

    Just start over using that simple diagram as a guide. Be 100% sure of this:
    Start with ballast resistor.
    1) Loosen top terminal screw, remove that connector, scrape it clean, reinstall.
    2) Loosen bottom terminal screw, remove that connector, scrape it clean, reinstall.
    3) Now with test light or meter you should have power at resistor only when key is on and when cranking motor. Be sure NO power when key is off or accessory position.
    4) Again, follow diagram, resistor bottom (looks green in your picture) should go to coil + terminal. (Coil has to be external resistor type).
    5) Coil -- terminal goes to distributor.
    That's all there is to it! Now.....

    Verify test light at the coil + is ON when key is in on position and while cranking.
    Verify test light at the coil -- is OFF when points are closed, light ON when points are open when key is on.

    Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk... Gary from Virginia
     
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  13. Mister E.
    Joined: May 4, 2018
    Posts: 64

    Mister E.


    Now, that sounds more helpful to Me than anything!
    Thank you very much!!
     
  14. I'll suggest watching these videos.
    Re read post 33.
    With your test light clamp on the coil +positive probe the coil -negative : when the points are closed the test light will light. When the points are open the test light will be off. Rotating the engine should cause the test light to flash. Without that flash of the test light,,, or the sequence of on and off,,, or the cycle of open and closed points,,, or the alternating presence of ground and open,,, there can be no spark.
    The coil charges when points are closed.
    The PLUG FIRES when the POINTS OPEN.





    When we clean the points with a file, we are creating a better path to ground.
    When we adjust the point gap, we are creating the optimum distance to break the ground circuit.
    When we set the dwell we are creating the optimum amount of time to allow the coil to fully charge and discharge.
    ALL OF THIS needs to happen in a very close proximity of everything being lined up correctly. The coil needs to collapse when the distributor rotor is near the caps terminal.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2018
    bobwop likes this.
  15. Above is backwards - on/off is backwards.

    Test light clamp on coil + positive, probe coil - negative ::
    Points closed completes the circuit = test light on. (Charges the coil.)
    Point open - opens the circuit = test light off. ( Collapsed magnetic field releases voltage and fires the plug.
     
  16. sevenhills1952
    Joined: Mar 14, 2018
    Posts: 315

    sevenhills1952

    No offense but please don't confuse anyone. What YOU said is backwards! If he follows what I said, he will be fine.

    What I said was "Verify test light at the coil -- is OFF when points are closed, light ON when points are open when key is on."

    That is not backwards! Here's why...
    On a 12 volt negative ground vehicle, using a test light. You clip the light to ground. It lights when you touch probe to 12 volts positive. It will NOT light touching to ground. (If you have a voltage differential from ground to ground...you have a problem!).
    So...follow what I said...logically. Where do the points go? To ground. The points are a switch that open and close by the distributor cam which turns, gear driven off of camshaft.
    So, test light lead grounded, probe on coil + side light should be ON when key is on and starting position only. Move probe to coil --, light ON points open, light OFF points closed. I did not have it backwards!
    If people post and cause confusion, he will never get it running. Just follow my steps, using that diagram that was posted.
    The only thing I can add, but don't want confusion at this point is that ballast resistor needs to be bypassed in start (cranking) position. This is because cranking voltage is lower while cranking (heavy current draw) and you want full voltage to coil. Then when not cranking, key on, ballast drops voltage to coil.
    Just follow my steps and you'll be fine.
    I'm Gary, retired electronic tech/engineer 43 years.

    Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk... Gary from Virginia
     
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  17. Mister E.
    Joined: May 4, 2018
    Posts: 64

    Mister E.

  18. This is good, and no offense taken.
    Your method of testing includes the coil in the loop and all the components or chain of events. It assumes the coil is in possession of proper continuity since its using the negative post of the coil as the control point and looking for voltage there. Sort of an obvious check and operation of a known good system that includes all of the components. If your test should not pass what's the next step? Could there be a false positive?

    My method isolates the breaker points, timing plate and their wiring, prove that good or bad first. Then move to the coil tests,,,testing the primary and secondary ohms. If coil is good add it into the system My method does both verify voltage during cranking and the on off cycle of ground thru the points. Accomplishes this by using the test light clamp on the coil positive and the probe on the coil negative. One could get false results by using the battery posts or known grounds, isolate what your testing.
    This method is more of a trouble shooting and isolation & elimination method to condemn faulty components and prove others ok.

    I'm Steve- Correctly diagnosing and troubleshooting "no start" issues in less than 10 mins for 42 years.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2018
  19. Heyy Steve..you've heard of the old "buy em some books,send them to school,sti;l like a box of rocks"
    case in piomt...
     
    54vicky likes this.
  20. Everyone needs to start somewhere.
    The hard part is starting off with notions that are incorrect or out of context. Getting rid of that crap and getting down to a clean slate is the first step and the very hardest. For example, it's much easier to teach someone who knows nothing and start from there than to start off explaining to someone that what they do know is either wrong or being used incorrectly.

    Most architecture and design work starts from a finished vision, concept, idea, or outcome and then thinks backwards to the beginning. Bringing that idea into reality starts at the beginning and builds or adds towards the completion. Both are necessary and both are extremely valuable and both are very very different in certain aspects.
     
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  21. AGEED......however......Electrical is NOT a good place to start for most folks
     
  22. sevenhills1952
    Joined: Mar 14, 2018
    Posts: 315

    sevenhills1952

    I'm trying to help Mr. E. get his truck running. Explaining my credentials, experience, knowledge is only adding confusion. The simple diagram is correct. Everything I said is correct. If Mr. E. follows those simple steps it will work. Set point gap with feeler gauge is a good simple starting point when he gets down to the distributor.
    If there is a problem with any step in the process, then that needs to be corrected before proceeding.
    There are too many Chiefs here. To avoid confusion and more "spaghetti " how about you take over and get his truck running in 10 minutes.

    Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk... Gary from Virginia
     
    54vicky likes this.
  23. F-ONE
    Joined: Mar 27, 2008
    Posts: 1,289

    F-ONE
    Member
    from Alabama

    Disclaimer.....I'm in mad mechanic mode. Usually my language is not so colorful....

    I have read through this and I'm confused and I know how this shit works.

    Take the test light and throw that shit away or leave it home.

    Go to the parts store and get two rolls of wire. A roll of red about 14ga. A roll of black about 10-12 gauge. Make sure you have a pocket knife and a roll of electrical tape.

    Unhook all that bullshit from the + side of the coil. Remove or tape that shit up and forget about it.

    Set the points to factory specs on the heel of the distributor cam. Make sure they open and close.

    Clean the battery cables.

    With your pocket knife, skin the insulation off the end of the black wire, a couple of inches will do. Find a bolt like a bellhousing bolt. Remove it, sand the bolt and washer. Sand where the bolt goes. Wrap the bare copper around the bolt and replace bolt.

    Skin the other end of the black wire and wrap it around the negative post and put the main cable on top of it. Now the engine is grounded......better.

    Skin the end of the red wire. Twist it tight and make a hook. Wrap this around the + side coil stud. Replace the little nut to hold the wire.

    Skin the other end of the red wire and have it ready to attach to the + battery post.

    The cap should be off your distributor.

    Now you should just have two wires on the coil. The - coil to distributor and the new red wire that will go to battery. You have bypassed the switch and ballast. For this test the coil does not give a damn if it's on ballast or full 12 v.

    Hook the red wire up,to battery, and put the main cable back on....now you are on. Turn the engine over and if the points are set right, they should pop. You should be able to see the spark. If it's too bright under there you should hear it.

    If they don't pop, unhook the + wire from the battery re check the points, change condersor or even the coil.

    Hook the hot back up....turn the engine over.....no spark?....no luck? The distributor is fucked.....likely a dead short. This may be why it's in the yard in the first place.

    If the wires get hot......you have ground problem.

    The bottom line is, if you can't get it going with a simple hot wire......you are not going to get it going in the yard. It will need to go to a controlled environment like your shop or .....yard so you can really go through it and have the distributor rebuilt or replaced.

    Why do you need to start it in the yard? Other than driving it on a trailer I see no reason.

    To try and drive it home as has been said is.....foolish. Before it moves it will have to have brakes, tires, tag, insurance etc etc etc.
    You really need to trailer or have it towed home.
     
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  24. For mister E Yep tow it home, don't drive it.

    Now as far as confusion, chiefs, cooks and spaghetti goes. Try to read the whole thread and get what mr E is saying and the pictures presented.

    Me E said that both greens are hot from inside the fire wall, and the red wire goes to/comes from the distributor. He also mentioned the timing plate is grounded.

    Do you all see the red ground wire connection to the hot green wire on the - negative post? That's a connected dead short but it's not acting like one.
    IMG_1112.PNG
    It's not acting like a short even when spinning the engine.

    There's only one reason why this connection is not melting wires or blowing fuses,,, the red wire that's supposed to be THE GROUND is not a ground and its is VITAL that it a ground Coming from the points. VITAL , imperative, key, mostest important, "the red button" "the bat phone"

    The wire out of the distributor was black from the factory. Someone changed it or spliced it red for some reason and and and and and its not doing what its supposed to.

    One needs to find out why the red wire is not acting like a ground or prove that it is then start the witch hunt.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2018
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  25. Vanness
    Joined: Aug 5, 2017
    Posts: 384

    Vanness
    Member

    Wow. Still going on..: f-one solved it get wire,set points. Hook to distrubtor (-)and battery (+)for coil. Boom. Spin motor -Check for spark...
    Since this is a problem like many others said. Tow it to where you can work on it. You’ll find Other things won’t be correct either.
     
  26. F-ONE
    Joined: Mar 27, 2008
    Posts: 1,289

    F-ONE
    Member
    from Alabama

    Mmmmmmnnnnn.
     
    31Vicky with a hemi likes this.
  27. Things that make you go hmmm.

    This dance ain't for everybody- only the sexy people.

    Y'all ready for this
     
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  28. Why would or should anyone need a hot wire when this condition presents itself with the key on?
    IMG_1113.JPG

    Does anyone know, has it been said if that light goes off when the starter is engaging ? If so I missed it.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2018
    rfraze likes this.
  29. Moriarity
    Joined: Apr 11, 2001
    Posts: 12,524

    Moriarity
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member






    I think this truck has a foot operated starter switch
     
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  30. Ok I'll rephrase it.
     
    VANDENPLAS likes this.

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