Not only do you think logically, you have a damn cool avatar!! Would you consider moving to California for a season and helping us get the guys out here educated?
As we picture our cars going down the mythical drag strip of our mind we are always alone on the track or racing some other (slightly slower) hambster in the other lane. But in real life I keep coming to line during time trials and look over into the other lane and see some young guy in a "74 Chevrolet with a big block, dual quads and a 5,000 stall converter just waiting to smack his 14" wrinkle-wall slicks. Now, I can easily imagine that he decided to spend his money on a roller cam and still has the stock connecting rods from the initial build four years ago. He's going to go three or four cars open on me and if the bottom end spits out in the top of low gear he may well be coming into my lane. I dunno'...he has enough energy built up to turn me and my little car into a Hambster omlet along the Armaco. Drag race have no "time outs". As in ..."TIME OUT!"--I DIDN'T WANT TO BE HERE ". All we have between us and the wall/car is some tubes and some .040 aluminum. Jeeze-- I'm scaring the hell out of myself. Butch
Butch, I don't know how other tracks operate currently, 'cause I've been at Firebird for 19 years, but it's no problem to run a single pass here. Just ask the stager (quarter-mile Lyle).
Posted by 64Dodge440: "Would you consider moving to California for a season and helping us get the guys out here educated?" The problem with common sense is that it's not all that common, so I'm not sure I could teach it to a tech inspector who can't decipher a Rulebook. Thanks for the invite though!
HAMBster omelet? Must be a cajun recipe. We got hit with it late in '07, after we'd already built to the single rollbar specs. At that point the tech told us it was then being applied to all open cars and would be formalized in the '08 book. Obviously he was working under a misaprehension. I dug out my '07 book (pg. 218) and (with the crystal vision of hindsight) can see how he could interpret it that way. Particularly without having made the prior concession of an E.T. classification. In retrospect it may've been better for us to have "gone in" (sic) under the cover of an E.T. class rather than giving him the HA/GR (with it's R for Rail) designation to try to work with. Obviously politics isn't my calling but had I had the foresight I might've gotten us all off to a better start out here. Now, with stands taken, it'll be much harder to wring rationality out of it, and perhaps not possible. We'll keep trying though.
Interesting bit of information. I think it's time to ask for another meeting with Rob Parks and Bob Blackwell and suggest they look at the "Dune Buggy" rules. In fact I built dune buggies when I lived in Riverside, CA. during the 60's and they were exactly like the HA/GR cars. Ron
Ron, would you like me to call Bob? We're old friends (nearly 20 years) and have worked many races together, Nationals, Divisionals, etc. I have his cell phone number or can email him and lay it out. Just makin' an offer.
I keep rollin' this stuff over in my mind. There was someone carpin' on another thread about having to use an axle retention device on a C-clip differential. You don't need an axle retention device or aftermarket axles until 10.99 if you're not runnin' a spool. Using an OEM clutch-type "posi" device or aftermarket limited-slip arrangement like Auburn or Detroit Locker, etc. does not require a retention device or axles until 10.99.
I believe that was Dick (Mosely), and he is indeed running a spool. Still, it'd be no particular problem to pop a posi back in and keep the rear he has, would it. Yep, pre-Bruce Myers dune buggies. Very much what a HAMBster is minus the sand (now that Palmdale's gone). Hmm, ........ it's "fun" breaking in a new mold, isn't it?
Friday' Where have you been Your input is great and appreciated. Here is a reference sheet I wrote up to save a novice builder some headaches, it did make reference to the axle retention device. Check it out and let me know what you think. Rocky Team TWIRLN GAS Rail Reference Sheet Check out the Jalopy Journal for more information http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/f...aysprune=&f=38 THESE ARE GUIDELINES AND WRITTEN USING THE 2008 NHRA RULE BOOK FOR CARS 11.99 AND SLOWER Please check current NHRA rule book when building a car1. Frame rails shall be production or modified production units, or 1 ½ by 3 by .118 wall (or larger) rectangular tube, or round tube 3′ in diameter by 118 wall (or larger). No slingshot chassis allowed. Driver & engine will be located between the front & rear axle centerlines. Minimum wheelbase of 90" SEE NHRA 4:12 2. Stock width front axles and rear ends only. Front axles shall be stock production units or equivalent width aftermarket units only. Front suspension optional on cars weighing 2350 lbs or less with 100 inch or longer wheelbase. SEE NHRA ET Handicap racing, Super Pro, Pro, Sportsman, Suspension, Altereds, Dragsters Also SEE NHRA 3:2, 3:4 3. All cars must have at least a five point roll cage of minimum 1 5/8″, 118 Mild Steel wall tubing. SEE NHRA 4:11 4. Rear axles shall be stock width production units only. Aftermarket gears are allowed. One piece axles recommended, Cars with keyed axles must use hub safety retainers. SEE NHRA 2:11, 2:2 Brakes 3:1 5. Closed or enclosed drivelines are encouraged. SEE NHRA 4:9 & 2:4 Open drivelines shall have 2"x 1/4″ retaining hoop straps within 6″ of front universal joints. A minimum of .120 Steel plate flooring to protect driver from u-joint in case of failure. 6. Cars must have cowl/body and floor boards, belly pan sufficient to prevent drivers legs from exiting vehicle unintentionally Minimum .032 Aluminum or .024 Steel. SEE NHRA 7:5 Sub flooring independent of car body is mandatory in Dragsters that allow drivers legs to rest on Belly Pan or Chassis. SEE NHRA ET Handicap Racing A minimum .032 Aluminum or .024 Steel firewall is mandatory. SEE NHRA 7:4 Windscreen 7:7 7. Cars must be equipped with an engine mounted starter and be self starting. 8. Batteries must be securely mounted using modern safety standards and separate from drivers compartment. SEE NHRA 8:1 9. Cars must have a master battery cutoff switch accessible from outside the car. SEE NHRA 8:4 10. Cars must have at least one red rear running light for night racing. 11. Engines must be pre-1962, inline, overhead, flathead and flathead V8 types with production cylinder blocks only. Later issues of these engines are acceptable as long as there are no significant changes between them. No aftermarket overhead valve heads allowed. No V type engines other than flatheads allowed. 12. Engines must be naturally aspirated. No superchargers, turbos, nitrous oxide or fuel injection. 13. No electronic ignition boxes mounting outside the distributor or coil in cap HEI allowed. Conversions in the manner of Petronix that fit within a stock dist cap are allowed. No aftermarket magnetos allowed. 14. Pump gas/racing gas only. No Methanol, nitromethane, or alcohol. 15. Era specific carbs only, stock appearing- no modern Holley, Edelbrock, or other aftermarket carbs Flash Shield or Scoop Required SEE NHRA 1:4 16. Fuel lines shall have no more than 12 total of rubber line. SEE NHRA 1:5 17. Cooling system or water tank must use a radiator cap and overflow/catch can system. SEE NHRA 1:7 18. Automatic transmissions are not allowed. All cars with clutches must run a stamped steel bell housing or a 1/4″ scatter shield over production bellhousing. SEE NHRA 2:3 2:5 2:6 19 Cars must have rims no wider than 6″ and only bias ply street treaded tires allowed. No radials, slicks, or cheater slicks allowed. Tire tread width must measure no more than 6″. SEE NHRA 5:1, 5:2 20. Drivers must wear up to date NHRA acceptable full face helmet with shield (Snell M2000, M2005, K2005, SA2005, SFI 31.2A or 41.2 SEE NHRA 10:7 & ET Handicap Racing). SFI 3:3 Neck Collar or SFI 3:3 Head Sock or Skirted Helmet Required. SEE NHRA 10:8 3.2A/5 two layer fire retardant jacket & pants or suit required, SFI 3:3 Gloves required on all open bodied cars. SEE NHRA 10:10 Leather Driving shoes 3:3A/5 & Arm Restraints required @ FAMOSO & Recommended SEE NHRA 10:3 21. Five point NHRA approved safety harness required. SEE NHRA 10:5 22. All cars must be of general soundness and safety. Must have all lug nuts, sound steering, cotter pins in place, and heim ends captured etc. 23. No electronic/pneumatic drivers aids such as rev limiters, two steps, shift lights or electric shifters. Tachometers are allowed if they dont have a rev limiter or a shift light. 24. Cars are to be built in the spirit of the 1950s
Friday, I'll take you up on your offer to call Bob Blackweel since you guys have worked together. He knows me, and the rest of our crew, and has certified several cars for us over the years but, your having worked with him should pull some weight. Bring him up to date on the dune buggy rules and see if the HA/GR cars can run under those rules. Ron
Ron & Friday, irregardless to discussions in the past, great to see the fresh enthusiasm, inparticular, with the combination of knowledge, dedication and a positive attitude, can only be a great thing for all. Thanks, needed that, one last thing, try to get to Mokan....think it would help 'clear the head'. Drewfus P.S. appologies if the above sounds like 'jibberish', just random thoughts..
Toymaker & Ron Golden, as I related in my PM to Toymaker, I don't want to come off here as a wise-ass know it all. That's not my personality at all. What I am is a drag strip junkie. I'd rather be at the drag strip teching cars than anyplace else on the planet. So, seeing an opportunity to help you fellows if I can, I'm jumping in. Now, is there's one thing I've learned in my 67 years on this rock, it is that when you're trying to sway someone over to your side, you try to work on his terms first. In that light, I have structured the following rules according to the format in the NHRA Rulebook. I went item by item and applied what was relevant, then threw out what was not. I realize you guys wanted the rules to be simple and fit on one sheet of paper, but this is more complicated than that and everything must be addressed properly if you are to sway the NHRA over to your way of thinking. If you like what I've done, use it. If you don't, toss it. It's that simple. You won't hurt my feelings. I have taken some license on items that have been a thorn in the side of tech guys forever. Lug nuts and wheels for instance. Rather than try to explain why the stud must protrude into the hex portion of the nut by the diameter of the stud, I have thrown out the whole tube nut arrangement. Those tube nuts have no threads in the hex portion of the nut in the first place and are a tragedy waiting to happen. We used to have the racers at Firebird pull a nut for inspection at every drag race until they wised up and installed longer studs and open-ended nuts. Now, all it takes is a counter-clockwise twist with the thumb and forefinger to make sure they're tight and away we go. You can keep that verbage or throw it out, I'm just trying to make it easier on the tech inspectors and therefore make more friends for you racers. Apparel is another area. You don't need 3.2A/5 jacket and pants according to the Rulebook. If you want to retain that rule, go for it. Battery "J" hooks have forever been a pain in the ass, so I tossed them too. The rule about minimum track front and rear is taken from Roman chariots. Their track was 56 1/2 inches. When the railroads were built in this country, the width of the tracks was 56 1/2 inches. When Henry Ford built his cars, he used 56 1/2 inches. The following is a compilation of rules as I would have written them if charged with the task. Dune-Buggy-Type vehicles, running 12.00 and slower Elapsed Time. OVERVIEW: A center-steer vehicle using front or mid engine placement and having a wheelbase between 90 and 150 inches. Driver and engine must be placed between front and rear axle centerlines. Slingshot type construction prohibited. 1.1 COOLING SYSTEM Optional. If used, radiator must be in front of motor. MID-ENGINED CAR: Metal deflector plate between radiator and driver required. Minimum 1/8 inch aluminum or 0.060 inch steel or titanium, starting at frame rail, width of rollbar up to shoulder bar, width of helmet from shoulder bar to top of rollbar. If any part of radiator sits above shoulder bar (crossbar), deflector plate must be full width of rollbar from frame rail to top of rollbar. 1.2 ENGINE Pre-1962 production block and head(s) only. Inline four, inline six, inline eight flathead or overhead valve and flathead "V" engines. Later issues of these engines are acceptable as long as there are no significant changes between them. No aftermarket overhead valve heads allowed. Aftermarket flathead heads accepted. No “V” type engines other than flatheads allowed. Maximum crankshaft centerline to ground 24 inches. 1.3 EXHAUST Any type exhaust allowed. Must be directed to rear of car, away from driver and fuel tank. Individual pipes must be connected to prevent loss of pipe during competition. Flex tubing prohibited. Muffler(s) OK if securely mounted. 1.4 FLASH SHIELDS Carburetor inlet must not be openly exposed. Must use flash shield or velocity stacks that cover top, back and sides, preventing fuel from being siphoned into the airstream or blown into driver's face. Recommend rural newspaper delivery box for inexpensive scoop. 1.5 FUEL SYSTEMS All fuel lines, pumps, tanks, valves, etc. must be located outside driver's compartment, within confines of frame. Cool cans, fuel distribution blocks, etc. must be located minimum 6 inches forward or rearward of flywheel/bellhousing area. Fuel pressure isolators with steel-braided line may be mounted on firewall. Fuel tank must be completely isolated from driver's compartment by a firewall, completely sealed to prevent any fuel from entering the driver's compartment. All fuel tanks must have a pressure cap and be vented to outside of car. A positive-locking, screw-on fuel tank cap is mandatory. Non-metallic fuel cells or tanks must have metal fill-ring grounded to frame of car. All fuel lines must be metallic, steel-braided or NHRA-accepted woven or woven push-lock (see nhra.com for list of woven fuel line). Maximum 12 inches total of black rubber fuel line is permitted for connection purposes only. Fuel lines (except steel-braided lines) in the flywheel/bellhousing area must be enclosed in a 16 inch length of steel tubing, 1/8 inch minimum wall thickness, securely mounted as protection against fuel line rupture by exploding flywheel or clutch parts. Fuel and brake lines may not be routed in the driveshaft area. Recommend mounting tank or cell above bottom of frame rails so that bottom of tank/cell cannot come into contact with racing surface in the event of front-end failure. Naturally aspirated only. No superchargers, turbochargers of pressurized air/fuel systems of any kind. No power adders such as nitrous oxide. No fuel injection. Carburetor(s) only. Era specific automotive carbs only, stock appearing-no modern Holley, Edelbrock, or other aftermarket carbs. Motorcycle carbs prohibited. 1.6 FUEL Commercially available gasoline, racing gasoline or E85 fuel only. No methanol, ethanol (except E85), nitromethane, hydrazine, propylene oxide or other combustible liquid permitted. Water injection is permissible. 1.7 LIQUID OVERFLOW Radiator overflow catch can, minimum capacity 1 pint, securely fastened. 1.8 LOWER ENGINE CONTAINMENT DEVICE Not mandatory, but highly recommended to prevent oiling rear tires following engine failure. Need not be SFI-certified. Can use bag or metal tray. See NHRA Rulebook, General Regulations, 1.8. Sportsman bags available on ebay for about $130. Use Pig Mat oil absorbent lining material, whether bag or tray. 1.9 OIL SYSTEM Accu-sump, dry-sump tanks, oil filters, oil supply lines, etc. prohibited in driver's compartment. Oil pressure gauge and line permitted in driver's compartment, metal or steel-braided line mandatory, maximum 3/16 inch inside diameter. 1.12 THROTTLE Must have a foot throttle incorporating a positive-acting return spring attached directly to the carburetor(s) throttle arm. A positive stop or override prevention must be used to prevent linkage from passing over center and sticking in an open position. Mechanical throttle linkage systems require toe hook attached to foot throttle pedal to allow driver to pull throttle pedal back with toe in the event throttle blades stick over center. Toe hook not required with cable-operated or hydraulically-operated linkages. No part of throttle linkage may extend below frame rails. 2.2 AXLE RETENTION DEVICE Not required unless differential is locked with use of a spool. Clutch-type or aftermarket anti-slip "posi" or ratchet-type differentials do not require axle retention device, although it is highly recommended. 2.3 CLUTCH Conventional, single disc Long, Borg & Beck or Diaphragm type clutch only. Foot-operated engagement/disengagement only. Manual or hydraulically operated throwout bearing. 2.4 DRIVELINE 1/4 inch by 2 inch steel driveshaft loop is not required on these cars. FRONT-ENGINED CAR USING U-JOINTS AND REAR SUSPENSION: A suitable protective shield of 0.120 inch minimum thickness steel plate surrounding the driveshaft and joints 360 degrees, extending from transmission output shaft to differential pinion shaft and securely mounted to frame or frame structure. May be made in two pieces, top and bottom, with flanges, using minimum six Grade 5 or better 3/8" diameter bolts/nuts, three per side. FRONT-ENGINED CAR USING U-JOINTS AND SOLID-MOUNTED DIFFERENTIAL: same as above, but securely mounted to rearend center section and transmission case. FRONT-ENGINED CAR USING STRAIGHT COUPLERS AND SOLID-MOUNTED DIFFERENTIAL: A suitable protective shield of 0.063 inch minimum thickness aluminum surrounding the driveshaft and couplers 360 degrees, extending from transmission output shaft to differential pinion shaft and securely mounted to rearend center section and transmission case. May be made in two pieces, same as above. Removeable top half will serve as an inspection cover. MID-ENGINED CAR: Protective shield not required. 2.5 FLYWHEEL Aftermarket flywheel and clutch not required by the rules, but highly recommended. 2.10 FLYWHEEL SHIELD Minimum thickness 1/4 inch steel, 360 degree shield mandatory. On engines where a hydro-formed steel shield is not commercially available, shield from another application may be used by bolting a motor plate to the block with all available bolt holes, the drilling the motor plate to accept the shield. Alternately, a shield may be fabricated to completely encircle the stock bellhousing, securely mounted to the frame or frame structure. Fabricated shields may not be bolted to either the bellhousing or engine. Shield must extend forward to a point at least 1 inch ahead of the flywheel and 1 inch to the rear of rotating components of the clutch and pressure plate. See NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 2.10 2.11 REAREND Welded spider gear rearends prohibited. Rear differential housings shall be stock width production units only, minimum track 56 1/2 inches. Aftermarket gears and aftermarket/OEM limited-slip differentials are allowed. One piece differential housing recommended, Cars with keyed axles must use hub safety retainers. 2.12 TRANSMISSION All cars must be equipped with a reverse gear. Manual transmission only, 3-speed, 4-speed, 5-speed or 6-speed. Automatic transmissions prohibited. 3.1 BRAKES Minimum two-wheel hydraulic brakes on rear. Four-wheel hydraulic brakes recommended. Steel, steel-braided or D.O.T.-approved flexible line only. Where line passes flywheel area, route to outside frame rail or enclose line in 16 inch length of minimum 1/8 inch wall steel tubing as protection against brake line rupture resulting from exploding flywheel or clutch parts. Line-Loc acceptable for staging purposes. All verbage in NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 3.1 applies. 3.2 SHOCK ABSORBERS Minimum one hydraulic or friction-type shock per each sprung wheel mandatory. 3.3 STEERING All verbage in NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 3.3 applies. 3.4 SUSPENSION Rear suspension optional. Front suspension optional on cars weighing less than 2,350 lbs with 100 inch or longer wheelbase. Front axles must have radius rods attached to frame. Front axles shall be stock production units or equivalent width aftermarket units only, minimum front track 56 1/2 inches. 3.5 TRACTION BAR ROD ENDS All verbage in NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 3.5 applies. 3.6 WHEELIE BARS All verbage in NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 3.6 applies. 4.1 ALIGNMENT All verbage in NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 4.1 applies. 4.2 BALLAST All verbage in NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 4.2 applies. 4.3 DEFLECTOR PLATE Applies to mid-engined cars only. See Rule 1.1 COOLING SYSTEM. 4.4 FRAMES Frame rails shall be production or modified production units, or 1 ½” by 3” by .118” wall (or larger) rectangular tube, or round tube 3′’ in diameter by 118” wall (or larger). No “slingshot” chassis’ allowed. Driver & engine must be located between the front & rear axle centerlines. Grinding of welds prohibited. All butt welds must have visible reinforcement (sleeve and rosettes). Pressurization of frame rails or rollbar prohibited. Mild steel (as opposed to chromoly) tubing for fabricated frame and rollbar recommended. 4.5 GROUND CLEARANCE All verbage in NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 4.5 applies. 4.7 MOUNTING HARDWARE All verbage in NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 4.7 applies. 4.9 PINION SUPPORT All verbage in NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 4.9 applies. 4.10 ROLL BAR The NHRA 2009 Rulebook, in Section 4A, Roll Bar, makes provision for a "dune-buggy-type vehicle" running 12.00 or slower to utilize a minimum 5-point ROLL BAR. Minimum material requirement 1 3/4 inch diameter, 0.118 inch wall mild steel or 0.083 inch wall chromoly. Refer to General Regulations, 4.10 for specifics pertaining to construction. Pay attention to diagram in General Regulations, Section 4.10 of Rulebook. 6th point side bar mandatory. Have driver seated in car in driving position before beginning roll bar construction. Roll bar must be minimum 3 inches above driver's helmet, maximum 6 inches behind driver's helmet and at least as wide as driver's shoulders. Two rear brace bars required, same material as main roll bar hoop, intersecting main hoop no more than 5 inches from top of main hoop and installed at a minimum angle of 30 degrees from vertical. Crossbar (minimum 1 1/4 inch diameter x 0.118 inch wall mild steel or 0.083 inch chromoly) must be installed between left and right side of main roll bar hoop as mounting point for shoulder belts. This bar should be mounted even with the driver's shoulders to a maximum of 4 inches below the driver's shoulders with the driver in driving position. Under no circumstances is this bar to be mounted above the driver's shoulders. Side bars, one on each side of roll bar (6-point bar) same material as main hoop, intersecting main hoop at crossbar and extending diagonally to the floor of the car at the driver's feet. These side bars must pass the driver between the shoulder and the elbow with the driver in driving position. Sidebars may be bent or bowed to facilitate meeting shoulder/elbow rule. 4.12 WHEELBASE Minimum 90 inches with front suspension, solid-mounted differential. Minimum 100 inches if solid-mounted front and rear and car weighs less than 2,350. Maximum wheelbase variation left to right, 1 inch. Minimum front and rear track, 56 1/2 inches. 5.1 TIRES Bias-ply street-treaded tires only. No radials, slicks, or cheater slicks allowed. Maximum tread width 6 inches as measured during technical inspection. Must have minimum 1/16 inch tread depth across entire 6 inch width. Temporary spares, space-saver spares, farm implement or trailer tires prohibited. 5.2 WHEELS Minimum 13 inch diameter. Maximum 6 inch wheel width. Snap-on covers or spinners prohibited. Lightening of wheels prohibited. Closed-end lug nuts prohibited. Wheel studs must protrude past end of lug nut by minimum one thread. Chamfer-type lug nuts only. Chamfer-type wheels only. Tube-type lug nuts and wheels prohibited. Wheel spacer/adapter permitted, billet only. Cast spacers/adapters prohibited. Stacking of spacers/adapters prohibited. Motorcycle wheels or lightweight automotive wire wheels must be equipped with minimum 0.100 inch diameter steel spokes, properly cross-laced to provide maximum strength. All spoke holes in rim and hub must be laced. 6.1 DRIVER COMPARTMENT Magnesium materials prohibited. Gauges permitted, electrical or mechanical. No mechanical fuel gauge lines in driver's compartment. Use isolator or electrical gauge. Mechanical oil pressure lines and brake pressure lines must be metallic. Recommend steel-braided. Recommend minimum 0.024 inch thickness steel or 0.032 inch aluminum for fabricated sheet metal body panels. 6.2 UPHOLSTERY, SEATS All verbage in NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 6.2 applies. Pay attention, 4 bolts in the bottom, 1 bolt in the back to the crossbar. Mount the seat and get the driver in the car before beginning Roll Bar construction and belt mount placement. See rule 10.11 for proper lap belt and crotch strap mounting. 7.1 AIR FOILS, WINGS Air foils, canards, wings or spoilers prohibited. 7.4 FIREWALL FRONT-ENGINED CAR: Minimum thickness 0.032 inch aluminum or 0.024 inch steel, laterally from frame rail to frame rail, vertically from frame rails to height of tallest engine part or carburetor(s) air horn(s). Firewall must provide a bulkhead between driver and engine to prevent engine fire from reaching driver. All holes in firewall must be sealed with aluminum or steel. Holes for passage of wiring, gauge lines, etc. must be minimized. Rubber grommets to prevent chafing of wiring or lines highly recommended. Magnesium firewall prohibited. MID-ENGINED CAR: Front firewall not required. See rule 1.1 COOLING SYSTEM. 7.5 FLOOR Minimum thickness 0.024 inch steel or 0.032 inch aluminum floor pan extending frame rail to frame rail and firewall to rear of driver's seat mandatory. 7.7 WINDSCREEN Metal, Lexan or other fireproof deflector mandatory. Minimum size 5 inches tall by 12 inches wide to divert wind, liquids and foreign matter over the driver's head. Must be securely mounted and installed in a manner that does not obstruct the driver's frontal view in any way. May be formed as part of the cowl above the firewall. 8.1 BATTERIES Maximum two batteries. Maximum weight 150 lbs combined. Front engined car with front mounted battery/batteries must enclose battery/batteries in sealed box. Front engine car with rear mounted battery/batteries may use sealed box or minimum thickness 0.024 inch steel or 0.032 inch aluminum firewall behind driver's seat without sealed box. Mid-engined car may mount battery/batteries at rear of car without sealed box. All batteries must be secured to the frame of frame structure with minimum two 3/8 inch diameter bolts/nuts or studs/nuts (3/8 inch allthread works) and minimum 1/8 inch thickness by 1 inch wide steel strap across top of battery/batteries. Strapping tape prohibited. Battery/batteries loose in sealed box does not constitute legal mount. Secure battery/batteries to the car, then cover with sealed box and secure box to car. Sealed box must be vented to atmosphere. "J" hooks prohibited. See General Regulations 8.1 8.3 IGNITION Must have positive-action on/off switch, capable of de-energizing entire ignition system within easy reach of driver. Momentary-contact or mag kill button type switches prohibited. Recommend large, round, red button, pull-on/push-off type switch. No electronic ignition boxes mounting outside the distributor or “coil in cap” HEI allowed. Pertronix or other solid-state points-elimination systems that fit within a stock distributor cap are allowed. No aftermarket magnetos allowed. Electronic, electrical, mechanical, hydraulic, pneumatic or any other kind or type of device to alter or control any function of the engine or car in any way without driver input prohibited. 8.4 MASTER CUTOFF An electrical power cut-off switch must be installed on the rearmost part of the car and be easily accessible from the rear with the car in any position, right-side-up, sideways or upside-down. Connect switch to POSITIVE side of electrical system. Switch must stop all electrical functions AND kill the engine. Off position must be clearly indicated with the word "OFF". If push/pull type actuation, push must be off and pull must be on. Minimum 1/8 inch diameter for any cables or rods used to activate switch. Plastic or keyed switches prohibited. 8.5 STARTERS All cars must be self-starting. Rollers and/or push/pull starts prohibited. 8.6 TAILLIGHT All cars must have minimum one red taillight visible from the rear of the car so that the Starter/Flagman can see when your car has exited the track at the top end before he sends another pair of cars down-track. Recommend minimum 4 inch diameter lamp or equivalent. Strobes, flashing, high-intensity, laser, infrared, photo-sensitive or other light-emitting/receiving devices prohibited. 8.8 SHIFT LIGHT Shift light prohibited. 9.1 COMPUTER Computers prohibited. 9.2 DATA RECORDERS Data recorders prohibited. 9.3 FIRE EXTINGUISHERS For onboard extinguishers, standard, flip-open type extinguisher mounts are prohibited. Here's a legal onboard mount.... http://www.sidebysidesports.com/rpsqurefiexm.html Otherwise, see General Regulations 9.3 10.3 ARM RESTRAINTS Must be worn and adjusted in such a manner that driver's hands and/or arms cannot be extended outside of roll bar or frame rails. Must be combined with driver restraint system so that restraints are released when lap/shoulder/crotch belts are released. 10.4 CREDENTIALS Valid State or government-issued driver's license mandatory. If the State won't allow you to drive on public highways, then you have no business creating problems on the drag strip. Bring your license with you to tech inspection. 10.5 DRIVER RESTRAINT SYSTEMS 5-point, SFI 16.1 belt installation mandatory. All verbage in NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 10.5 applies. Study the diagram shown in General Regulations, Section 10.5 VERY CAREFULLY and build accordingly. This will be the most critical part of your build. PAY ATTENTION!!!!! (Editor's note) In all the years I've been teching cars, I've only encountered a handful of cars that had the belts installed correctly. If you follow the diagram, it's so simple that a child could do it, but it seems to escape grown men. Weld a 2 inch by 2 inch by 0.083/0.125 inch wall piece of square tubing crossmember between the frame rails, right at the back edge of the seat. Mount the lap belts to this, about 16 inches apart c-c. If you want to be able to remove the belts easily, install ring-type bolts into the 2 x 2 crossmember and use clip-type ends on the belts. Mount the crotch strap in the middle of this crossmember. Cut a hole in the seat right under your nuts if it doesn't already have one and bring the crotch strap up through the seat. Mount the shoulder belts to the crossbar that runs between the Roll Bar uprights. (you did mount the crossbar at shoulder height, with the driver in the seat and in driving position, right????) There, done correctly. 10.6 HEAD PROTECTOR All verbage in NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 10.6 applies. Study the diagram in General Regulations, Section 10.6. 10.7 HELMET Full-face helmet with shield meeting Snell specification M2000, M2005, K2005, SA2000, SA2005 or SFI specification 31.2A or 41.2A. Goggles prohibited. SFI 3.3 skirted helmet or SFI 3.3 head sock not required by the rules, but recommend upgrading to one or the other in front-engined car. 10.8 NECK COLLAR / HEAD & NECK RESTRAINT DEVICE Optional, not required by the rules, but strongly recommended. 10.10 PROTECTIVE CLOTHING Full-length pants, short or long sleeved shirt, closed shoes and socks. Fire jacket meeting SFI specification 3.2A/1, fire gloves meeting SFI specification 3.3/1. SFI 3.2A/5 jacket and pants not required by the rules in this level of car, but recommend upgrade in front-engined car. 10.11 SEAT BELTS All verbage in NHRA 2009 Rulebook, General Regulations, 10.11 applies.
I myself am very thankfull for your efforts. I'm very curious how the Roll Bar vs Cage conversation will go with Bob. It would be great for NHRA to make it clear and pass the info to thier techs. Thanks again, Rocky
Richard, I owe you a six pack of whatever you drink. Name it. That's the single most helpful effort in our rules problems to date. Guess it pays to "hire" an expert. Thank you.
okay guys... in case anyone missed it in the 3+ years we've been beating this horse... as per NHRA Div 7 tech, from their mouth to my ears... if it is center steer and solid rear, its a dragster or an altered, thus the roll CAGE rule. since NHRA holds the master lease on the one track we are running at out here, that's how it goes. i've said it a million times and i'll say it again (until common sense prevails at a higher level...) wanna run a roll BAR??? off set the steering and add rear suspension. THEN you have a dune buggy type vehicle.
FridayNite.... THAT set of rules is incredible- thank you for your time in drafting those. I've probably been one of the most vocal NHRA-haters rules wise here on the HA/GR board, repeatedly beating the drum that the HA/GR class was never intended to pass NHRA tech, and so on and so forth BUT.... I'd GLADLY eat a mountain of crow, and even modify my build (no first/reverse in my modified Lasalle trans currently) if this set of rules would be enacted universally- including Commiefornia. the cop-out here is of course, for now, the rules are what they are, and I will continue my build as-is. Again, I'm awed that you took the time, thanks a million.
I know where you are coming from Mitch, I have heard this from the beginning of our build, but find the logic on that argument hard to follow when single seat buggies have been built for many years, (in center steer configuration) and the idea of rigid VS sprung rear causing a problem going in a straight line is not the least bit logical. Same thing for the concept that if you climb over the side, one rule applies, but if you have a door it's different. There are stock convertibles that run quicker and faster than our cars and can do so as long as they have the top up and the windows closed, but we need to build to dragster or altered standards. Not saying this to be contrary and plan on building our car to pass tech, just don't understand the logic driving it. Perhaps fridaynitedrags can help us understand this logic? (Not trying to put you on the hot seat Richard, just appreciate all of your help to all of us building and racing these cars.)
OK fellows, I want to keep you abreast (I love that word) of what I'm doing. As I mulled this over, I concluded that talking with Bob Blackwell might not be the best place to start. That, and the fact that Bob is probably up to his ass in alligators working the Topeka event this week. This is a worldwide problem, not just a Division 5 problem. So, I decided to begin at the NHRA home office in Glendora. I have worked with and corresponded with Jake Hairston, Technical Electronics Specialist on several occasions in the past, so I called him this morning and laid out the problem and asked if he would review the rules I have written. He said he would, so I sent it over to him on email. Jake related to me that NHRA gets petitioned repeatedly, on a daily basis, by groups or individuals who want a special class instituted by the NHRA to the point of absurdity. But he did agree to take a look for me. If Jake and others in the organization can agree that the rules are valid, then he said he can pass the word to the individual Division Directors to allow these cars to run as spec'd in the rules I wrote. This is the header I included: Hi Jake, thanks for taking my call and discussing the HA/GR "dune-buggy-type" vehicles. As I said, these fellows are encountering resistance from tech inspectors around the world when they try to get through tech with a roll bar rather than a roll cage. The 2009 Rulebook makes provision for a dune buggy type vehicle with roll bar at 12.00 and slower and that's what these guys want to build to. They just don't want to have to go to the trouble and expense of constructing a cage because that's not the theme of these vintage-type cars. The cars use vintage motors, no V8's except flatheads, no engine newer than 1962, and so forth. There are perhaps thousands of these cars which could be built in the next few years, but members of the H.A.M.B. forum, where the idea for these cars originated, are reluctant to construct a car without having the rules and thus worldwide acceptance nailed down so that they can race them anywhere without going through a hassle and/or rejection in tech inspection. Currently, there are somewhere between 100 and 200 of these cars already built in this country and as many or more built in Australia. Understanding the importance of building a vintage-type car safely, I agreed to list a set of rules which might be understood and accepted by the NHRA and which could be passed out to and used by H.A.M.B. members to build these HA/GR cars safely and pass tech anywhere. Jake, thank you very much for looking at this for me. Richard Moore Firebird Tech Dune-Buggy-Type vehicles, running 12.00 and slower Elapsed Time. OVERVIEW: A center-steer vehicle using front or mid engine placement and having a wheelbase between 90 and 150 inches. Driver and engine must be placed between front and rear axle centerlines. Slingshot type construction prohibited. (Rules inserted here) I closed with a couple of links to HA/GR cars from Australia.... Here's a couple of youtube videos from Australia... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKceUwQXRxg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH-iv2rXqHg&feature=related Now, we'll just have to wait and see what happens.... Richard.
Fri.../ Richard On behalf of the SDRA and the HA/GR Guys that run with us at Tulsa Raceway Park I want to say Thankyou for your input. You speak with a voice reason for all of the guys who; have built, are building, or want to build a car of this type. If you ever get the chance to come to Tulsa look us up. Jr. Clark CrkInsp
Ok......I'm going to potentially have conflicting 'tones' here, but, the heart is in the 'right' place. Agree entirely with the above statement, without this attitude we (HA/GR in oz) would still be dreaming of racing, if it wasn't for some passionate/likeminded people who knew the 'process', and worked 'with' it, whilst still keeping our heart in the 'right' place. We found our 'niche' within the existing 'structure', and whilst we had to make a few minor adjustments to suit the protocol (i.e. adding a little more information/where to refference in existing ANDRA rules), the class intent has remained the same, and now, are a recognised class within the various structure. Point(s) being: * First and foremost, remembering the heritage & original intent of this class, and within reason trying our best to stick with it (our biggest comprimise was our cages which we had to change, plus all the safety gear, which was common sense anyhow) * Working within the structure is always easer than trying bang down the front door, always. * Anything is possible, just need to find the 'right' keys... May I also note: * most racers 'get it', and support the class, it's only a few who are lost in the details that seem to 'struggle' with what we're about * I believe in working 'with' promoters, as most WANT to get involved, although I conceed that there are some that are focused on $$$ and really don't understand our intent... * I believe in the HAMB (?) and the first priority is there(here), probably a bit hard to explain this point, but without the support of Ryan and the HAMB in the beginning we wouldn't be 'here'. So, at each event we go to we make a difinitive effort to promote the HAMB, and where the HA/GR's came from, and what we're out to achieve.....and it ain't money or trophies. Appologies for the above ramble, again, support you guys who are having a go, builders/racers, tech guys, promoters, and loyal supporters. Drewfus
Amen Mate, you and your Aussie brothers, (and sisters) have done lots of good work to lead the way for those of us who are following.
Richard, Thanks for the effort. I have my fingers crossed you can inject some logical thinking into the NHRA tech group and they will allow us to run the HA/GR cars everywhere. Ron
You guys have been busy while I was at the Pleasanton GoodGuys show. I come back and read this and Laughed out loud Funny s#%^*t Tom. You better check the shifter rule too! Rocky
I'm sorry fellas... Inherently, I just don't give a shit about the NHRA rules... Not that my opinion matters.
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