yea... gettin killed in a single hoop car keeps you in the spirit... BEING a spirit and running on God's quarter mile all of the wisconsin HA/GR cars (breeders chassis included) have a double hoop, and i kinda like that warm fuzzy thought that my brain pan is safe and sound inside the confines of that second ring of steel tubing
if it had an open cockpit like a t bucket, or dune buggy (4 couner suspension) it would be a slam dunk. like i said before, and i'll say it again, because i know how NHRA tech works...if it aint in the book, its gonna be rough.
Rather than speculate, here's what an NHRA tech and I have been emailing. Here's his stuff to me. I merely want to know how to get my car on the track. I'm not here to second guess anybody. (From the guy) "...The first thing that comes to mind is the chassis itself. Even though it does not run that quick it still must meet some minimum criteria. Based on the design it would be classed as an altered chassis. As such, the illustration/s for what is required is detailed on page 82 of the 2008 NHRA Rule Book which includes vehicles with an altered chassis running 10.00 and slower. Other specific details are outlined on pages 77 through 84. As far as the other safety requirements they would be based on the E.T. and/or MPH performance of the car. Have a look at the rule book with regards to these chassis requirements and then let me know if you have any further questions. (next letter) I just asked what the difference between dragster and altered was. "...The major difference between how we classify the chassis is where the rear-end is located. If it is in front of the driver it is a dragster; if it is behind the driver it is an altered..." (next letter) I mentioned I thought the handbrake was hokey.. "...The hand brake is OK to use. If any of them also use a foot brake then the two need to be connected so they both operate together. Do you know what the weight of these cars? If they are under 2350 pounds with a wheelbase of 100 or more the suspension is optional. If they are heavier than 2350 then the front needs to have one shock for each sprung wheel. Either way the rear suspension can be rigid...." (Next letter) "...Based on what I have read in your rules (I sent him the rules), the driver suit requirements are as follows: 1- Full-faced helmet with face shield meeting Snell 2000 or later. 2- Head sock or skirt on helmet or neck collar to cover the skin area of the driver's throat. 3- SFI jacket meeting 3.2A/1 minimum. 4- SFI gloves meeting 3.3/1 minimum. 5- Arm restraints. The driver's safety gear is based on a number of things such as E.T. and MPH, however they are also based on the body style, type of fuel, firewall material, etc. Open bodied cars do require more gear at lesser E.T. and MPH. Also please note that the cage/chassis as shown in the pictures does not meet all of the minimum requirements of the NHRA Rule Book for 10.00 and slower altereds. You may already have seen this but if not you need to obtain a copy of the rule book and reference the sections I referred to earlier...." -Vector
what you have to understand is that these ARE NOT NHRA 'LEGAL" vehicles. the whole concept was to run them on NON-NHRA tracks like the HAMB DRAGS at Mo-Kan. you are never going to get NHRA proper to sign off on any of the ones that have been built so far. its been at the discretion of the individual track's tech crew to put them down the track. the current rules / guidelines are COMMON SENSE (based on guidelines set forth in the rulebook) look... Myself and many of the other guys have been going around and around on this subject for 3 years. you'll never get the kind of answers you're looking for unless you build a by the book NHRA car. we've all determined that the best approach is to leave the NHRA tech officials at the division office out of it. so your four options are: 1) build an NHRA approved dragster or altered with an appropriate HA/GR driveline 2) build what you want in the spirit of the Bug using the NHRA rulebook as a guideline and hope the track officials have enough common sense to let it go 3) build some other thing that is right on the ragged edge of a current NHRA classification and run in in the HA/GR category. 4) stay away from NHRA tracks.
5) Build your HA/GR car as era correct as you are able, and then get with your local tech and ask what he wants to see for bars. Including tech is MUCH easier while the build is going on. Some of us don't have the option of going somewhere else to race. A car that's on the trailer in your garage does not do as good a job of "showing the people" as a car that's on the track in front of them. A car that's run once a year at the hamb drags is only showing people that already know and "get it". People that haven't seen it before, whether one bar or two, are gonna think it's era correct, and THOSE people are who you're interested in spreading the gospel to... not the 15 other guys here that have knocked out a car. Or the other 200 that talk shit and haven't yet. (myself included) The original bug had no bars at all. Was stick or gas welded and had a lap belt. It's okay to be safe So far, I've noticed that the guys that have actually knocked out a car and taken it to the track are the ones doing the least amount of griping about the bar rules, and are the most relaxed and compromising about small items. they also seem to be the most friendly in debating ideas, and in helping others get on board. I think it's like this. People that don't have kids have some VERY opinionated ideas on how OTHER people should raise their kids and how kids should behave in public... After having kids, you're more understanding, and your lofty goals of perfectionism are dropped to a more acceptable level. Before you have kids, "I can't believe people let their kids run around the mall like that..." After you have kids. "Honey, give the kids $20 so they can run down and get a cinnabon and get out of our hair..."..
option 5 more often than not is the same as option number 1. when in doubt, the default is the NHRA rule book 99% of the time. Old6Rodder built his first, using common sense guidelines, then got input from Famoso tech. NHRA tech would have NEVER approved the design in the first place. he's not running because NHRA says its OK, but at the discretion of the Famoso tech staff. Toymaker's car is not 'NHRA LEGAL' either (Legal: within NHRA chassis classifications) although it is common sense and meets all of minimum requirements from a variety of classes. again, its at the discretion of the Famoso staff because they can see that its more than safe for a 15 second (excuse me, 14.8 second) car. the majority of HA/GR's split the difference. anymore NHRA and they'd be altereds, any less NHRA and they cant run, but NONE that i've seen so far fit into any current NHRA chassis classification.
I was of the mind that if they had to be put "somewhere" that the NHRA would consider the car an altered. And the more I read, the more I see altered more than dragster or rail. Mind you it's nitpicking. Plop one of these bodys on with 4 bolts and you can take it off and on in 4 minutes and call it what you like. ...lol... Yea, yea...yea... I know it's not an ha/gr... I'm trying to put perspective on it. call it what you like. It's all good. But I'm feeling an HA/GR to be more of an altered than a dragster. Just a feeling. And only because I don't know what the rest of the world considers a "dragster" to be. location of the driver and axle, length, etc. Most of the HA/GR cars are shorter than an altered, anywhere from say 6 to 24". 125" looks to be pretty common wheelbase for an altered. Alteredpilot, at least speaking from my own fading brain perspective. It would be awesome if when you mentioned a dudes car and something about, just post a quick pic as refference. I spent 10 minutes looking for the car to see what you were talking about... ...lol... And if I might put you on the spot for a second. On toymakers car, the engine is to new, 1963 and the bars don't look period correct. Still an HA/GR car? Mine is likely to go down a similar path. I just hope it looks half as nice. old6rodder: Toymaker One of my favorite cars and an EXCELLENT build thread.
From the rulebook: Altered wheelbase from 90" to 125". In my opinion, the only way to build a NHRA legal HA/GR-looking car is to use frame rails, front suspension, etc. that are vintage in appearance, to the firewall. From the firewall rearward the car will have to have pipe that conforms to the rulebook for 10:00 and slower Altereds. The rear axle can be full width. The builder will have to skin the car from the firewall rearward so as to hide as much of the modern-looking structure and cage as possible. I believe most HA/GR enthusaists will find the appearance quite outside what was intended at the inception of the HA/GR idea. If I thought I could build one that was NHRA legal and looked right, I'd be in the garage right now instead of typing. If there are any designer-draftsmen with the right software out there in HA/GR land, why don't you try to design one?
i think you're starting to see it. the original idea was to build cars like the early rails you see in the inspirational post. they weren't dragsters or altereds. they were rails. thing is NHRA has no classification for 'rail' - just altered or dragster. according to NHRA , dragster or altered are determined by more than wheelbase and axle position. they are determined my the actual construction of the chassis as per their chassis book. i think the aussies have it dialed. they just built a bunch of altereds with traditional front suspension and minimal bodies...even a t-bucket in the bunch.
That said the basic cars do sorta fit into the "Altered" class of cars, but the engine setback exceeds the altereds 25 percent in many cases. Hence "Rails".
According to the 2008 NHRA rulebook, any engine setback is permitted in an Altered. (Page 192) If you build an HA/GR that has the 9.99 and slower Altered roll cage, etc. it does not have to be built to SFI specs and does not have to be certified. It just needs to be built to the rule book. It will not be legal to run NHRA Comp. Eliminator because all Comp. Eliminator Altereds must have certified chassis built to SFI specs. It does however qualify to run E.T. Handicap racing in either Pro (7.50-13.99) or Sportsman (12.00-19.99). The one point of contention is an HA/GR does not have a rudimentary car body as required on an Altered. So you need to convince the Tech guy that it is a FED, old style, with the driver in front of the rear end. Or, that you forgot to put the Bantam body on that morning. Heck, it's bracket racing, who cares? If the HA/GR passes tech for all the safety stuff, it's hard to imagine that the difference between having a glass Bantam body or an aluminum wrap would keep you from being accepted. For those of us in areas where NHRA rules all the drag racing and the tracks strictly enforce the safety requirements, this might be the only way to have a (somewhat) early style rail that can be raced.
RODAN with single hoop and MAS glass Austin body...three years ago during the original build. Last picture is just before adding second bar to hoop.
And THAT is why I like ya. Nobody's gonna piss in your Wheaties and ruin you're day. A proper have fun attitude.
I think you single-hoop guys are trying to make this too complicated. These cars were never meant (the way I see it) to fall into a dragster or altered class if you're gonna run 12.00 or slower. Grab your 2009 NHRA Rulebook and look on page 60 at the bottom of the page, ROLL BAR. "....and in all dune buggy type vehicles running 12.00 and slower." Now, the way I see it, if a HA/GR rail job doesn't qualify as a "dune buggy type vehicle", then there ain't a cow in Texas. This is under Section 4A of E.T. Handicap Racing and these are the rules we run by when doing weekend events where the track is being run by the track owner and NHRA has no part in the actual running of the event. The track still runs under NHRA rules, but there are no NHRA classes being run except E.T. Handicap Racing. We have everything running under these rules and the accompanying Advanced E.T. rules from 25.00 second Chevettes to 6.00 second Pro Mods and alcohol Funnys. This rule section allows a minimum 5-point ROLL BAR, not a cage, in a "dune buggy type vehicle" going 12.00 seconds and slower, so ease up on the motor, build it for 12.00 or slower and have a ball. See the ROLL BAR diagram on page 262. If you have any questions, ask me here or on a PM if you prefer. If you want to email me, it's [email protected] Pull your horns in and tell the tech inspector it's a dune buggy. What the hell do you care what it's called from a technical standpoint as long as you get to run it legally. You and the inspector are the only ones who will know it teched as a dune buggy. The car will be legal at any NHRA track in the world. Make note that the material required for a ROLL BAR is 1 3/4" O.D x 0.083" moly or x 0.118" mild steel. Assume that the tech inspector will measure the tubing diameter. Richard Moore, SFI Silver Certification #S-86 Chief Technical Inspector Firebird International Raceway Chandler, AZ
I posted the procedure for a ROLL BAR (as opposed to a ROLL CAGE) on the wiki in another forum. I'll copy and paste here so that you understand all the particulars.... 2009 NHRA Rulebook, General Regulations 4:10 ROLL BARS: All roll bars must be within 6" of the rear, or side, of the driver's head, extend in height at least 3" above the driver's helmet with driver in normal driving position and be at least as wide as the driver's shoulders or within 1" of the driver's door. Roll bar must be adequately supported or cross-braced to prevent forward or lateral collapse. Rear braces must be of the same diameter and wall thickness as the roll bar and intersect the roll bar at a point not more than 5" from the top of the roll bar. Minimum angle of rear brace bars ("C" bars) 30 degrees from vertical. Crossbar and rear braces must be welded to main hoop "B" bar. Side-bar must be included on driver's side and must pass the driver at a point midway between the shoulder and elbow. Swing-out sidebar permitted. All roll bars must have in their construction a cross bar for seat bracing and as the shoulder harness attachment point. Cross bar must be installed no more than 4" below, and not above, the driver's shoulders or to the side bar. All vehicles with OEM frame must have roll bar welded OR BOLTED to frame. All 4130 chromoly tube welding must be done by approved TIG heliarc process; mild steel welding must be done by approved MIG wire feed or approved TIG heliarc process. Welding must be free of slag and porosity. Any grinding of welds prohibited. See illustration. Roll bar must be padded anywhere drivers helmet may contact it while in driving position. Adequate padding must have minimum 1/4-inch compression or meet S.F.I. Spec 45.1. Now, let's examine the rule: A. "All roll bars must be within 6" of the rear, or side, of the driver's head, extend in height at least 3" above the driver's helmet with driver in normal driving position and be at least as wide as the driver's shoulders or within 1" of the driver's door." Some fellows will build their roll bar only to protect the driver if their car is a purpose-built race car that will never have a passenger (unlike a car which will also be run on the street), so they build the bar to look sort of like a pyramid, except rounded on the top where it protects the driver's head. They will run the main hoop (B bar) up from the driver's side sill to the roof, make a half-circle around their helmet and then take the bar down to the sill at the other door instead of running it to the other side of the roof of the car and then down. The part of the rule that says "at least as wide as the driver's shoulders or within 1" of the drivers door" is meant for the "pyramid" guys. The part about being within 6 inches of the rear of the driver's head is to insure that the bar gets fragged before the driver's head. By the way, let's get the terminology in order. The main hoop is normally referred to as the "B" bar, as that's where the B pillar is on a production car. The windshield frame is the "A" pillar or A bar and the rear window frame is the "C" pillar. B."Roll bar must be adequately supported or cross-braced to prevent forward or lateral collapse." Forward or rearward "lozenging" or collapse is prevented by the two diagonal (as viewed from the side of the car) bars (rear braces, also called "C" bars) which connect to the top of the B bar and run down to the tail end of the frame at the rear, forming a triangular support to the B bar when the car is viewed from the side. Lateral (sideways) collapse is prevented by the cross bar which runs from the left (or driver's side) of the B bar to the right (or passenger's side) of the B bar. This cross bar is installed at the driver's shoulder height with the driver seated in his/her driving position. It should be noted that many builders also install a diagonal bar (as viewed from the front or rear of the car) from the "B" bar corner at the driver's helmet down to the other side of the car at the bar end/floor to further prevent lateral failure. C. " Rear braces ("C" bars) must be of the same diameter and wall thickness as the roll bar and intersect the roll bar at a point not more than 5" from the top of the roll bar." "Same diameter" means minimum 1 3/4" (1.750") "Same wall thickness means 0.118" for mild steel and 0.083" for chromoly "Not more than 5"....means do not move the rear braces over to the side of the car to the vertical part of the B bar any further down than 5" as measured from the top of the B bar. The closer to the top of the B bar these rear braces are, the better they can prevent the B bar from forward or rearward collapse (lozenging). Minimum angle from vertical on these rear brace "C" bars is 30 degrees as viewed from the side of the car. D."Crossbar and rear braces must be welded to main hoop." The main hoop is normally called the B bar in tech lingo. E. "Side-bar must be included on driver's side and must pass the driver at a point midway between the shoulder and elbow. Swing-out sidebar permitted." This bar welds at the intersection of the B bar/cross bar at the driver's left shoulder and runs downhill diagonally to a point near the driver's left foot. It's purpose is to keep the driver in the car in the event he/she is out of the belts. (Yep, it happens). If you're planning a swing-out side bar, get yourself a NHRA Rulebook. There are several ways to do it, all of them too lengthy to address here. Although the ROLL BAR will be legal as a 5-point bar, I would go ahead and add a sixth point to the installation as a "passenger side" side bar. F. " All roll bars must have in their construction a cross bar for seat bracing and as the shoulder harness attachment point. Cross bar must be installed no more than 4" below, and not above, the driver's shoulders or to the side bar." CAUTION: DO NOT INSTALL THIS BAR UNTIL THE DRIVER IS SEATED IN THE CAR IN HIS/HER NORMAL DRIVING POSITION IN THE CAR..... AND...... DO NOT INSTALL THE SIDE BAR UNTIL THIS CROSS BAR IS IN PLACE. Maximum protection for the driver will be afforded by installing the cross bar with the top of the bar EVEN with the top of the driver's shoulders. That's why you don't want to weld this bar in until you have the driver in position. Now, with the cross bar in position, you can weld the driver's side bar in at the intersection of the B bar/cross bar and be assured the geometric line of pull will be proper on the shoulder belts and the side bar will be high enough to retain the driver in the car in the event of upset, passing the driver midway between the shoulder and the elbow on its way to the floor close to the driver's left foot as dictated in "E" above. If the shoulder belts are wrapped around the cross bar to attach them instead of bolting or welding a buckle to the crossbar to attach the belts, then some means of preventing the belts from sliding back and forth on the crossbar must be used. I usually tell the racers to bend a couple of pieces of 1/4 inch rod into a very shallow "U" (slightly wider than the belt) and weld them onto the back of the crossbar. You can then thread the belts through the "U" brackets and the belts will stay in place laterally on the crossbar. G. " All vehicles with OEM frame must have roll bar welded OR BOLTED to frame. A HA/GR car does not have an OEM frame, but it is a frame as opposed to unibody construction. H. " All 4130 chromoly tube welding must be done by approved TIG heliarc process; mild steel welding must be done by approved MIG wire feed or approved TIG heliarc process. Welding must be free of slag and porosity. Any grinding of welds prohibited." If you're not an expert welder, then for heaven's sake, hire a professional. It'll be the cheapest wages you'll ever pay for a nice roll bar installation. Nothing is cheezier than bird-crap welding and again, I've trailered more than one car for crappy welding. And don't even THINK about grinding any welds on the car. Hire a pro. If you fit up all the bars in the car and tack them in, the pro welder won't be there long doing a proper job. I. "Roll bar must be padded anywhere drivers helmet may contact it while in driving position. Adequate padding must have minimum 1/4-inch compression or meet S.F.I. Spec 45.1." Whether you think so or not, seat and shoulder belts stretch when you're flippin' and rollin', so make sure you've covered all your bases here with every possible place your helmet could make contact with the bars. There is no restriction on improving a rollbar into a rollcage, even though you must use 1 3/4" minimum diameter tubing for a rollbar and can use smaller 1 5/8" for the rollcage. Just build onto the existing rollbar material with your new 1 5/8" tubing. Also, there is no restriction on using 1 3/4" material for the entire rollcage. There is just a 1 5/8" minimum for a rollcage and 1 3/4" minimum for a rollbar. You could even use larger material if you want to, you just can't use smaller than the rules call for. Of course, there has been much hoopla about the choice between mild steel and chromoly. Mild steel is less expensive than chromoly and can be migged or tigged in. Chromoly is more expensive to buy and must be tigged in. There was some discussion about stick welding the whole mess in. From a technical standpoint, I would have no problem with the cage being stick welded, as long as there is obvious penetration and no bird shit welds and no grinding. Just don't tell me about it and all will be fine. "Go race" would be my attitude. The problem with stick welding lies with the operator, not the process.
WOW! That was the strongest deja vu in a looooong time. Friday', you see it correctly. Would that our own techs were as logical. That's exactly the original concept and application of the class as intended years ago. They planned to mechanically hobble the cars to above 12 seconds for those very reasons. Thus the 6" bias tire and shortly thereafter the manual gearbox. Furthermore, should the class break 12s we intend to hobble it right back again, likely by knocking the tread width down 1/2" at a time as needed. Unfortunately, our local techs refused to tech us as we'd expected and decreed us to fall into other classes. Thus our current situation. Also, the extension of roll cage requirements to apply to "all" open cars. I believe in '07?
Hi Richard, I'm on the board plugging in some pictures and reading stuff and I appreciate your input. I would like to raise a point that may be lost in a technical discussion of roll bars, rules and such. It's financial anxiety. If someone, like myself, for instance, will have to tow nearly a 900 miles round-trip to race. Then there is two nights on the road in motels...making reservations, hoping it doesn't rain...getting time off work... eight or nine restaurant meals...getting a dog sitter, explaining to the wife why we are "going so far" to race" and that "maybe they won't let us race because the roll bar or something isn't right., etc. It is very hard to contemplate this undertaking hoping that the tech guy will view your car favorably and let you run. You probably have the better part of a thousand bucks out-of-pocket by the time you arrive back home. The only reasonable thing to do is build the cage to the "10.0 and slower" as the rules dictate. Then you know that you can run it anytime and anywhere. Thanks, Butch
A valid and workable conclusion for your situation. Build it, race it, enjoy it. After all, that is the point.
If NHRA would send a pic of a HA/GR car to every sanctioned drag strip with the explaination to tech it as a dune buggy type vehicle, if it runs over 12.00, then Butch's, my and every other builder's anxiety could be relieved. Based on Ron Golden's efforts and on the Cal guy's experiences, NHRA isn't motivated to make this accomodation. Do we need to hire a lobbyist?
Butch, I can appreciate your situation. It makes me just as red in the face to encounter a tech inspector who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground as it does for someone to try to pass off some crap on a car that I know isn't legal. I get just as fired up either way. It's right there in the Rulebook in black and white. Any of you guys who plan to use a single hoop ROLL BAR and go 12.00 or slower might want to correspond with the track operator ahead of time. Explain the "dune buggy type vehicle" that is noted in the rules. Cite the rule specifically and where he can read it for himself (herself). It may not be a dune buggy, but it damned sure is a dune buggy "TYPE" vehicle. We have these home-built cars running around out here in the desert and have had for the last 35 years that I've lived in the Phoenix area. If they try to classify it as a dragster, ask them "when is the last time you saw a dragster with a 58 inch rear track and 6 inch bias-ply street tires"????
Bob, as I noted in my previous post, you guys need to correspond with the track operator ahead of time. You should know though, that if any single hoop cars show up at Firebird, THEY'RE GONNA RACE (so long as the bar is installed correctly. Please read my installation instructions above in post 142). For any who may wonder, I know Bob Blackwell and he knows me. We've worked several NHRA events together.
"If they try to classify it as a dragster, ask them "when is the last time you saw a dragster with a 58 inch rear track and 6 inch bias-ply street tires"???? __________________ There is no sweeter sound in the world than that of a child laughing... " Not only do I like your tag line to begin with, but there's some real Freud in that one ....
Posted by Old6rodder: "Also, the extension of roll cage requirements to apply to "all" open cars. I believe in '07?" I know of no such rule. All dune buggy type vehicles I have ever seen were open cars, yet the rule remains for them to go 12.00 and slower with a single hoop ROLL BAR. Again, it's right there in black and white in the 2009 NHRA Rulebook. You guys should come on down to Firebird.
The Jalopy Journal
