The Jalopy Journal
Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by colesy, Aug 12, 2007.
Wow!!! Not the car, but I was there only one time. I was with a high school buddy and his '57 Chevy. His grandparents lived in Mt. Jackson Va. and that was the closest track to their house. Haven't thought about that in years! Gene.
Trick Tank at Dover Dragstrip I think, pretty sure.
Yep..This is about the time I met Joe...70-71?
Sure looks like it and Valley Performance on the quarter panel is another clue.
Pops first race car 273 ci G/MP, not a Jr. Stk.
Hasn't changed much.
Good eye FB, I didn't catch that.
210 to Bel Air.
Wow, I didn't catch that either. I'll admit the owner has changed a little too.
Oh I know - too bad but the new NHRA blueprint files just give lift. I wish they'd at least give the old advertised durations in parentheses so we'd know what cam they mean, but pretty vague as is. As I understand it though, prior to 1968, you were SUPPOSED to use a factory cam, and even in 68 up, cheater cams were legal but still had to meet advertised duration and lift, so with factory valve springs you could only cheat so much & then valve float.
So since those durations arent listed, sometimes I'm guessing at them, and then even at the .050 lobe durations since NONE of that was listed back then. Ford listed .100 lobe for most of their cams but nobody else much.
So for example, early 60s solid Mopars, I use as GUESSES:
Advertised............... .050 lobe
312-312 maxwedge........ 266-266
300-308 maxwedge...... 256-262
300-300 maxwedge....... 256-256
268-268 361&383 solid 225-225
Do those sound about right? Thats the kind of info I'm hunting for. I think my guesses have to be "pretty close" but it's hard to find real numbers for those.
Agreed on the special rules for cars/engines. I was sure surprised in the old NHRA records to see all those old solid 427 auto-trans FoMoCo wins, because outside of lightweights, no auto trans factory cars have ever been found. But they've always been legal, lots of wins too. So many footnotes trying to compile all this history, glad to have some help now & then.
"As I understand it though, prior to 1968, you were SUPPOSED to use a factory cam, and even in 68 up, cheater cams were legal but still had to meet advertised duration and lift, so with factory valve springs you could only cheat so much & then valve float."
We raced Jr stock in 1966 and 67 just when the cheater cams were new and coming out in 1968 (and late summer of 1967) . When they first came out only a select few could get one. We had a Crane "blueprint" cam in 1967. but was stock configuration.
When the cheater cams came out it could make a .3 to .5 of a second difference in ET, with same motor just different cam.
The cheater cam allowed different jetting in carb, ignition timing changes, etc. to adapt to the new cam. Not all that simple, but that 's the gist of it.
The yellow 56 sedan photo is from Omaha Raceway Park stocker wars about 1970. The 56 car owner was Bob Luedtkey (spelling ?)
I think it was a 225 hp dual quad 265, and the wagon is Richard Charboneou (spelling ?) from Minn. I believe.
Charbonneau ran the 427/410-4v wagon in 1970 in E/S=9.00 class. IIRC NHRA banned it for 1971 because the VIN didnt match, most likely to prove the point that FoMoCo never made a 427 wagon (or never even wrote a letter saying they did, which led to many legal combos that were never made)
The 56 2dr sedan looks like it says N/S=14.00 for 1970 which would indeed be the 265-225-8v combo. The same car wouldve run M/S=14.00 in 1969 but it looks like N/S in the window. Those doggone letters changing almost every year.
The 1967 Fairlane wagon with the 427/410 was never banned. In fact it is still listed in the current NHRA Classguide. NHRA stopped enforcing VIN verification in the late '60's. The Charbonneau wagon was raced in 1970 so the serial number never came into play. The reason some body/engine combinations are in the Classguide but were not produced is because back then specs were sent to NHRA pre-production. The manufacturers may have had plans to build certain cars but for whatever reason they were never produced but they showed up in the Classguide and some remain today.
Well that's how I read it on pg128 of Doug Boyce's book - NHRA went after the VIN after the 1970 season when the wagon won Spring & Indy. It made sense to me - NHRA probably nit-picked the VIN cuz even though Ford gave them the combo, they also had never seen a 427 wagon because none were built. Otherwise, this combo worked so well, why would it disappear after the 1970 season? Why wouldnt other 427 wagon combos start showing up? It does seem a little arbitrary, because all kinds of combos of engine/trans/car that never left the factory were allowed to run, but they made Charbonneau go find a wagon with a W-code VIN, which of course wouldnt be possible because none were built. It did leave me a little confused about what was enforced & what was not enforced.
As is the case with a number of historical/archival issues, this one is fodder for the hot-stove, dead-of-winter, idle discussion circuit. Having known the "Kentuckian" for almost 30 years and having put my car through his tech line on more than one occasion during that time, I believe that I'll align with his interpretation of what was transpiring within the various classification issues of the day. He was there, working inside the system, rubbing elbows with the people making decisions and then enforcing those decisions in the field.
It's good to see you're still following the thread, Travis!! Happy Holidays!
Agreed - I'm just quoting what I read in Boyce's book, though I do know I've never seen a factory 427 wagon nor has anybody else I know of, so likely Charbonneau would have HAD to use a car with a different VIN.
Kentuckian's story makes sense though in another way:
If they DID check for VIN matches up until the late 1960s (do we know when?) that might explain why the 427 Wagon combo did NOT appear until 1970 - it wouldnt of course pass the VIN check.
Do we know WHEN NHRA stopped insisting on matching VIN's?
I know this is stretching a bit outside the 1965 & older bounds but I think the VIN check issue is important.
So if mismatched VIN was not an issue with the Charbonneau 427 wagon, why did that combo disappear after 1970? Maybe Charbonneau just retired himself & the car? It's a very competitive combo, great traction.
The issue of VIN checks in general:
All those 55-57 Chevy combos, fuelie sedan deliveries etc, is it then that they didnt call out the engine on the VIN?
I know I've had lots of 62-65 Chevy II and the VIN just calls out (4 or 6) or V8 but not a specific V8 so maybe that allowed all the "pick your favorite engine" 55-57 Chevy combos, and others. I wonder if the 62 Mopar 383-8v had its own VIN letter (none of those were factory as I've heard it) so would they pass a VIN check?
Here's a bit of info concerning VIN and NHRA class cars. In 1980 a guy called me wanting to verify that a '67 Fairlane he was looking to purchase was a real 427 car. He gave me the serial number and I told him that by the serial number it started life as a 200 ci 6 cyl. He disagreed saying he had seen that car run for years as a 427. I called Marty Barratt (RIP) the former NHRA Div 3 Tech Director and asked him about the car. Marty was the Parts Manager at Paul Harvey Ford in Indianapolis. Marty verified that he had been instructed to go out on the new car lot, select a new 1967 Fairlane from inventory and order all the parts to make that a 427 car that was to be raced by the dealership. The car he chose was a 200 ci 6 cyl and was the same one I had in question. So by early 1967 the serial number on a car did not matter to NHRA. I questioned him how could a car be raced without the proper engine code in the serial number? He said NHRA quit seriously enforcing serial numbers the previous year (1966) when a dealership out West got in trouble with the Feds for changing the engine code in the serial number making a '66 427 Fairlane from what was originally a 390 car.
To continue on the subject of VIN engine codes the following applies...
Chrysler corporation did not start putting engine code in the serial number until 1966. Prior to that time the serial number only showed whether it was a 6 or V8.
The serial number on 1955 thru 1957 Chevrolets started with a V if the car was built with a V8. 1958 thru 1971 used various model numbers to determine 6 cyl or V8. It was not until 1972 that engine codes were incorporated into the serial numbers across the entire GM lineup.
Ford Motor Company was the only one that had used an engine code in the serial number since 1950.
From all my years in the 60's running a 55 & 56 Jr stocker, even at points meets, don't ever recall anyone checking VIN plates. Just so happened that the cars I ran were correct for the body & engines anyway.
There were lots of 55-57 bodies you could buy for under $200, sedans, wagons, hard tops, ...everywhere. I bought my 56 Nomad for $175 (no engine or trans)
Picture below is of one of the 56's before lettering, and the Nomad pix, is just after putting it togetther and a paint job. Ended up being a tow car for a couple of years.
But yes, a fuelie sedan delivery was a stretch.
Flying a BUNCH of kill stickers.
The Orange 68 SS/F Mus of Bill Ireland has a 390 code serial number. LOVE the Marty Barratt story. He's a legend and hero to us Ford guys.
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