The Jalopy Journal
Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by colesy, Aug 12, 2007.
Terry Bell, 1971 was the end of Junior Stock as we knew it! 1964-1971 was the hey day.
Well I can still learn a lot from pre-1964 discussions here, but agree it would make the thread a lot more coherent and true to its title if it could encompass the Junior Stock era thru 1971. I had no idea there was a pre-1964 rule until recently & still can't find it anywhere.
I wonder if Corncob could see our "Junior Stock thru 1971" logic, and also see a way to justify it as follows:
* Is Hot Rodding about the CAR or the ENGINE? I think it's a lot about the ENGINE.
* What if we "allow" pre-1964 ENGINE FAMILIES, throughout the Junior Stock era?
* Mouse = Small Block Chev 265 thru 350
* Y-Block Ford thru 312
* Y-Block Lincoln thru 368
* Windsor = Small Block Ford 221-302
* FE Ford 332-428
* MEL FoMoCo thru 430
* B and RB Mopar 350 thru 440
* Nailhead Buick thru 401
* Rocket Block Olds thru 394
* Big Pontiac 287 thru 455
I guess we'd have to exclude:
* Rat = Big Chevy, unless we consider that the engine family began with the 1963 Mystery 427
* Lima Ford 429-460, Boss 429
* Cleveland Ford 351-400M
* Hemi = really an RB, but the heads are so different
* Mopar "A" Small Block 273-340
* Big Buick 400-430-455
* Big Olds 400-425-455
* AMC 290-401 v8
I don't know of any Hemi's that ran in Junior Stock anyway, and actually not too many Rats - most were in Top Stock or Super Stock. So we'd lose a few 340 Mopars and 442 cars per the "pre-1964 engine family rules", but that would be a small loss and would allow discussion of ALL those other pre-1964 engine FAMILIES in cars and races up thru 1971. Maybe we could squeeze in the few Rat, 273-340 Mopars, and 442 cars for completeness.
The history of this era is so important, and this is one of the best threads ever in one coherent spot - I hope this might be a way to allow it to cover the entire Junior Stock era.
Is this a way to stay true to the spirit of HAMB, but let us cover the whole era thru 1971?
The 64 cut off only refers to the year of body style not the year of compitition.
You new guys were suppose to do an introduction and rules are on introduction page. Rules are found here: https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/the-h-a-m-b-rules-guidelines.44274/
It does say 65 and earlier though and not 64. Also, Corncob didn't make the rules, he is a moderator and follows rules made be HAMB owner Ryan.
Intro is just a courtesy and not mandatory.
And yes it is a 65 cutoff but corncob is the one who made that call.
I went through so many photos it's hard to find more now But I'm still searching.
Seems to me that most of the Jr. Stockers were 64 and older cars. This shouldn't be a problem with the pictures.
We can discuss events and race wins , up until the end of the era, in the same way that early custom shows from the 80's are discussed on this forum.
It's probably not a good idea to discuss 70's rule changes and show pics of tires from that era. I have been guilty of this, too.
I'm glad we're welcomed here, and would like to point out that almost everyday, I direct people to this thread that had never heard of the HAMB before.
Thank you all the time you put into finding and posting pictures for not only this thread but also the others you post on. You have found and posted some great pictures.
Yes, I know it. Everyone knows 1971 was the last true Jr. stocker days. Re-read what I wrote. 1964 at INDY was the FIRST Jr. Stock "eliminator" race put on by NHRA ! They only ran for class before that at NHRA events ! Local tracks ran an eliminator with all classes either with the new xmas tree when the 5 yellow light tree came out in 63 for those tracks that could get their hands on them or with car length or certain distance in feet spots prior to Indy 1964. We had one in 1963 at Capitol Raceway and Aquasco Speed way although it might have been the same xmas tree as both tracks were owned by the same people at that time.
Lets get back to some real period stockers then
These local boys qualified for the NHRA World Finals in their home division. Not an easy task then. Wier Bros O/S
Sorry, double photo--senior moment
Thanks I was looking for a picture of this car and to confirm proper spelling of Wier (not Weir).
This car won the 1969 Springnationals in O/S=16.00 class, with a 265/195hp (that engine was banned in the purge of 1970 except Corvettes), with a 14.59 at 94.49mph. A good combo with Wt/Hp=16.05, right at the top of the 16.00 class.
All posted by swi66 in the vintage thread
Bad Banana III
Spanos Monster Mash I/S Indy Nats 1964
An early customer of WTJ Sunoco Service
Wier brothers also ran a wagon.
posted by tommyd in the in motion thread
John Dianna Tulsa World Finals 1968
Big Al Is Here.
Did he add 396 flags to the front fender?
Is that Big Al Lombardo?
Jimbo I was wondering the same thing. I don't think Al ran a stocker I think he ran a Gasser.
I don't know either.
Ike Smith I/SA Carlsbad CA about 64-65
No, This is the much smaller Hudson "JET" model.
There can be an argument to be made that "The Jet" was a precursor to the funny car craze that forever altered the drag racing scene in the mid-50s. Between the Ford hood modification and the firewall modification to fit the 308 cubic inch "Twin H" power plant, it was a real hybrid. Quoting directly from the Wikipedia pages: "In drag racing, an Ike Smith–prepared Hudson Jet with a 170 hp (127 kW; 172 PS) "Twin H" 308 cu in (5.0 L) I6 Hornet engine ran consistent low-14-second times. The firewall required modification as the larger engine was not available from the factory, but the National Hot Rod Association (NHRA) made exception to its rules for this car."
This "type car" is the main reason that Phil Chisholm (the first NHRA 1964 Jr. Stock elim. champion from Indy) quit drag racing back in late 1964 as the Ford motor car company paid to have this bogus car to come out from Calf. to out run Phil heads up as they were both I/SA classed cars at a points race allowing Mike Schmitt to win the Points Championship in his 427 Hi Riser 1964 Galixie so called Light weight.
I had another senior moment this am when I put that up. It says "jet" on the door and I know the difference. Ike had a shop in the neighborhood I ran around in and he let me hang around some. I was just out of high school and only beginning to try and get involved. I never went with him but if he was there I would happen by. I knew none of the politics of racing and was learning about protests and rules slowly. Ike seemed to be under protest quite often I remember. The Jet did seem more like a gasser than stocker even to a newby like myself but I felt my best chance for acceptance was to listen and learn quietly. Thanks to EM & CN for the corrections. Sometimes I only know enough to get into trouble. DC
The more I think about the anomaly of the Hudson Jet as described above (typos and syntax aside), the more difficulty I have understanding how it was ever permitted to happen at all. By 1964 the Big 3 manufacturers had shown a willingness to produce specialty models of their cars set up for racing. Thunderbolts, Mopars and Chevys with aluminum and fiberglass body components, plus OHC and Hemi-headed engines were commonly showing up on the track but those, when they initially appeared, were summarily classified as Factory Experimental (F/X) and they were, in every case, current-year models designed to "Race on Sunday/Sell on Monday." The Hudson didn't fit that template. In 1964 the Hudson Jet was already ten or eleven years old and Hudson had ceased to exist independently outside of American Motors Corporation at about the same time that the last Jet rolled off the assembly line.
There is no dispute about the performance potential engineered into the Hudson 6 cylinder flathead with Twin H manifold and carbs. Also, before the company folded into AMC, Hudson had blessed future racers with a few performance enhancements that had been developed during the period when Hudson was a major player in NASCAR. Anyone interested enough to dig into that topic will find a detailed description of the work performed by Ike Smith and Chuck Parcell in preparing the Hudson Hornet Stockers in the July, 1965 edition of Hot Rod Magazine or at the online link at <http://www.heths.info/assets/vol-15-issue-2.pdf>.
My reservations regarding the situation are not related to the Jet's performance (which was impressive) but how the combination ended up in the Classification Guide in the first place. NHRA in 1964 was an entirely different animal than that which can be seen today. From all appearances, Farmer Dismuke and Wally Parks ran a very tight ship when it came to Stock Eliminator but, for some reason that is unclear to me at this point, the Jet with its FoMoCo hood bulge and modified firewall was approved for competition in Stock Eliminator. It didn't meet the requirements of Factory Experimental because the cars were over ten years old. It was a more egregious concession than allowing fuel injected sedan deliveries equipped with Hydramatics because it allowed firewall modification. Also, the hood was beyond the spirit of the existing rules on "minor customizing" that, for a time, had allowed tubular grill components and other appearance tweaks. The whole program was "outside the wire" as we are fond of saying these days. It is my belief that the cars should probably have been put into Gas Coupe/Sedan classes from the outset.
I'm guessing that MAYBE some cash changed hands to allow this to be done !
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