Register now to get rid of these ads!

History NHRA Junior Stock

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by colesy, Aug 12, 2007.

  1. Terry Bell
    Joined: Apr 21, 2016
    Posts: 165

    Terry Bell

    One more reason of WHY I would like to see the Jr. Stock discussions part of HAMB continue until the end in 1971 is there was NO Jr. stock at all until INDY of 1964. They were just called lower class stockers running for class wins only. No major money to be awarded. Just a class trophy and a small amount of contingencies at national events. Indy of 1964 was the very first NHRA event that that the premier association included the "Little Guys" in an eliminator of their own largely due to the Christmas tree being introduced in 1963. Even the Winter nationals of 1964 did NOT have a Jr. Stock eliminator. Just class only. Phil Chisholm in his 1964 Chevy wagon 327/250 HP with a P/G won the first Jr stock eliminator over Jon Callender's 1959 283/two barrel 4-speed Biscayne. Thus the beginning of the NHRA Jr. stock in 1964. There was some car length spots being used prior at local tracks that I even ran (and Lost....LOL) in 1963 and 1964 at Maryland tracks after winning in a 1953 Flat head Ford N/S. The first track that I had in my area was Capitol Raceway in Crofton Md. to use the Xmas tree with 5 yellow lights back in the day and I was able to win stock eliminator a couple of times (Didn't pay much back in 65)in my 1965 426 street wedge Plymouth(yes it was after 1964....sorry) before the Army grabbed me for a south east Asian vacation in 1966. They did split the B/S class into two classes back then (BB/S and B/S depending on carburation.) I could not beat the BB/S tri-powered 4-speed GTO's but I held my own against the B/S single 4 GTO's with automatics.. My car was an automatic also and that helped as the 64-65-66 GTO automatic was a 2 speed like the Chevy P/G. The high stall converters were almost non existent back in 1964-65. I hope the Super Moderators will read this and take the info into consideration about extending the BS sessions to 1971. There is not much to talk about before Indy of 1964 about Jr. stock other than class heads up.. Thanks for putting up with me.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
  2. Terry Bell
    Joined: Apr 21, 2016
    Posts: 165

    Terry Bell

    I don't remember seeing ANY headers until 1961 on Stockers or high HP stockers and I went to the track with my uncle often when I was 12 or 13. He raced his 1958 Chevy 348 250 HP and a P/G. It was slow but it was still cool to me.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2019
  3. WerbyFord
    Joined: Nov 4, 2011
    Posts: 101

    WerbyFord
    Member

    Just for fun, while we’re staying far, far away from newer cars like the 428CJ and the 396-L78, lets run a couple 17.00 class cars from 1955 but with NHRA rules from 1955-1971.

    1955 Chevy 150 2dr sedan, 265/180hp, W/P=17.11
    1955 Ford Mainliner 2dr business, 272/182hp, W/P=17.50

    I wanted to make the 2 cars equal, so the Ford is not the heavy hardtop in the picture but more like the car Loudbang used to have IIRC. It’s the lightest combo Ford offered that year, still over 100 lb heavier than the 150 Chev.

    There’s some good NHRA data on the 55 Chev all the way through the years, although most of the NHRA data on the 180hp is from 1968-71. It got more popular of course when the Vet-only 265-195hp was banned after 1969. I guess to be fair, since NHRA allowed Vet engines (and transmissions) in the Chevy, they should have allowed Tbird engines (eg the 1955 292/198hp and 1958 430/350hp) in the Ford, but they didn’t AFAIK.

    Before about 1963 I have very little NHRA data on the 55 Chevy, and none on the 265/180hp. I have some old Drag News on a CD and haven’t combed through all that yet but it’s pretty cryptic, they don’t usually list what engine was even in there.

    And the Ford Y-block, well, forget about it. There’s plenty of NHRA data on the 1957 312/300 F-code Paxton, but very, very little on any others. This example might help show why – the cars were heavier than the 55-57 Chev, the Y-block didn’t “wake up” as much even with stock class mods, it didn’t have a massive camshaft industry backing it, nor “replacement” heads that flowed better than the originals. But it’s a Y-block, which today is cool, cuz nobody else at the car show has one!!!

    Given that, the ET-MPH I am providing below are from the Gonkulator I started writing in the 1970s. It doesn’t have pull-down windows like the commercial versions but it’s pretty good and lines up with what DID happen through the years. So here’s an apples-to-apples, same rules, same “Drivers”, same weather, same prep, of these 2 cars through the years as rules got looser and parts and tires improved. I added headers (thru the mufflers) per the NHRA rulebooks starting 1958, but as Terry said, everyone else I’ve heard from “back in the day” remembers iron manifolds up until 1961. I wonder when was the 1st documented NHRA win or record with headers? Those details are hard to find.

    Anyway here is the (gonkulated) progression through the years for each car:

    1955 Chev 150 2ds, 265/180hp, 3-on-the-tree
    15.60 at 88.69 circa 1955-57, iron exhaust, column shifter, air cleaner, mufflers, street tires
    14.98 at 89.32 circa 1958-60 rules, headers (if they existed yet), mufflers, column shifter
    14.50 at 90.66 circa 1961-67 rules, open headers, floor shifter, original heads
    14.21 at 93.65 circa 1968-71 rules, replacement heads but factory cam
    13.83 at 97.18 circa 1968-71 rules and cheater ie rate-of-lift ie Fat cam, 30 degrees fatter at .050 my guess
    The shoebox and its little Mouse is 1.77 sec and 8.49 mph better than the 1955 race year.

    1955 Ford Mainline 2ds business coupe, 272/182hp, 3-on-the-tree
    The Ford gives up over 100 lb and about 10 hp (Gonkulator) so it’s at a disadvantage right off
    (But it is a much better LOOKING car, no debate there, right??? LOL.)
    15.87 at 86.73 circa 1955-57, iron exhaust, column shifter, air cleaner, mufflers, street tires
    15.32 at 88.90 circa 1958-60 rules, headers (if they existed yet), mufflers, column shifter
    14.82 at 90.56 circa 1961-67 rules, open headers, floor shifter, original heads
    14.82 at 90.56 circa 1968-71 rules, replacement heads (none that I know of) but factory cam
    14.74 at 91.16 circa 1968-71 rules and cheater ie rate-of-lift ie Fat cam, 10 degrees fatter at .050 my guess

    The Ford gains 1.13 sec and 4.43 mph, but it starts our .27 seconds behind the Mouse and ends up .91 seconds back by the late 1960s. Mainly, it doesn’t gain better heads along the way, since Ford stopped Y-block speed development after 1957. And the way the Ford cam specs out, as I understand NHRA Fat cams, there isn’t as much “room” to make the Ford cam “fatter” and still have it meet the specs that NHRA checked.

    Comments welcome on this of course, along with any real runs and details from back in the day. I do have Loudbang’s 13.30 at 110 in there from his 55 Ford 292/”198hp” but that wasn’t exactly NHRA legal, more like C/FX legal maybe.
     
  4. Unique Rustorations
    Joined: Nov 15, 2018
    Posts: 369

    Unique Rustorations
    Member

    Great stuff! So if we pick a nice day sometime in 1963, and keep things equal except add different drivers then it’s anyone’s race! Sure it’s 14.50 vs 14.82 which could be three full car lengths but add in driver abilities, track conditions that vary slightly per lane and then reaction times and it could be won be either car! Nice work WF! Thanks for the effort:) Regards, Randy


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
    loudbang, vetteguy402 and 31hotrodguy like this.
  5. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 29,970

    loudbang
    Member

  6. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 29,970

    loudbang
    Member

  7. Terry Bell
    Joined: Apr 21, 2016
    Posts: 165

    Terry Bell

    Great Pictures !
     
    Bowtie Coupe, Tom 57 150 and loudbang like this.
  8. JollyGreenGiant
    Joined: Mar 7, 2009
    Posts: 78

    JollyGreenGiant
    Member

    The black tube above the lift bar is the right side exhaust pipe that was required to extend at least to the rear axle.
     
  9. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 29,970

    loudbang
    Member

    Well crap I can see that now that you pointed it out :confused:
     
    tommyd, enloe, Bowtie Coupe and 2 others like this.
  10. WerbyFord
    Joined: Nov 4, 2011
    Posts: 101

    WerbyFord
    Member

    (Sorry this is long, skip over it if you don’t like numbers or long posts. At least it’s about pre-65 cars!)

    Randy (& all),

    Well said, and that’s about what I’m finding in this big study I’m doing of real NHRA wins/records vs what the Gonkulator says with “standardized” conditions & data. I am looking class-by-class at each class, each year, from W/P=7.00 to W/P=21.50 (haven’t gone any slower than that yet) to see who really won & set records vs what the Gonkulator thinks should have happened “all things being equal”. Note that with the Gonkulator, you can make all things EQUAL, but that does not mean you can make all things CORRECT. The Gonkulator (it was named that over on FordFe.COM by others) or any other computer tool, is only as good as the sketchy data and physics built into it, and that can be pretty good but never perfect.

    The number you mention there, about 0.3 seconds, is about what I have to allow and say that “any car in a given class and year that Gonkulates within 0.3 seconds of another car will probably win, sometimes”. Of course, if I have a good model, the combo that Gonkulates the fastest will have the MOST wins/records, but not all of them. In the 55 Ford vs 55 Chevy case above, the difference between those 2 cars is almost always outside of that 0.3 second bound, which says the old Y-block would not win very often unless the Chevy had a bent pushrod or sloppy shifter bushings. Sadly, that maybe why we don’t see many (any?) Y-block Fords in the old NHRA national sheets, except for the way-underrated blown 312/”300”hp.

    Usually, if I Gonkulate the contender combos for a class, the one that Gonkulates the fastest won’t have all the wins/records in reality, but most of them. Examples:
    • 265/195hp Chev
    • 283/270hp Chev
    • Ok, any solid-lifter 265 or 283
    • 283/220 Chev
    • Ok, almost any 265-283 Mouse
    • 383/343-8v Mopar
    • Any Max Wedge
    • Any Super Duty (389 or 421)
    Note I’m not listing any new, modern engines here!

    If a combo from the above list fits into a “class” in a given year, it’s probably going to win, at least a few, usually a lot. But not all of them! Any car within 0.3 sec of such a “fastest Gonkulating combo” will probably show up now and then. That’s what made it fun – and still fun to study.

    For example, let’s look at who won & set records in the W/P=17.00 class (H/S, J/S, K/S, J/S, O/S, P/S, Q/S depending on the race year), the same class as my 55 Ford vs Chev example. Spoiler alert: The 265/195 and 265/180 Mouse engines were dominant. Of the data I have so far, here are the combos that won, set records, and how many times, from 1961-71. I’ll just label these “wins”, meaning either a nationals win or an ET or MPH record set.

    “Wins”: 1961-67 only, pre-legal-cheater-cams
    13 265/195-4v
    5 283/185-2v
    2 265/180-4v
    1 389/235-4v Pontiac
    1 260/164-2v Falcon (yup, a Ford)
    1 308/160-2v Hudson Big Six Jet (allegedly legal at one time)
    1 170/148 Slant Six Hyperpak
    1 164/150-turbo Corvair

    (strangely enough, given our 1964 vs 1971 forum rules limbo right now, all the winners of this W/P=17.00 class were all 1964 or older cars, even for race years up thru 1971!)

    “Wins”: 1968-71, cheater/fat cams legal

    10 265/180-4v
    3 265/195-4v
    1 389/235-4v Pontiac

    So how do those cars Gonkulate? This is what the Gonkulator says for 1961-67 rules, before cheater/fat cams were legal:

    1961-67 race years:
    Wins ET-MPH
    13 14.43-93.16 265/195-4v 1955 Chev 210 4d Wagon
    2 14.50-90.66 265/180-4v 1955 Chev
    1 14.62-93.55 389/235-4v 1962-63 Pontiac
    The below cars won a few, but only before the 265’s showed up in 1965:
    1 14.71-91.75 260/164-2v 1963 FORD Falcon “Sprint”
    1 14.74-91.71 308/160-2v 1954 Hudson Big Six Jet (allegedly legal at one time)
    5 14.82-89.76 283/185-2v 1957 Chev 2ds Utility
    1 15.54-86.58 170/148 Hyperpak 1960 Valiant
    1 164/150-turbo 1964 Corvair (I have never Gonkulated a Corvair, it will take a while)

    Things line up pretty well I’d say! The Gonkulator predicts that the 265/195 should win most of the time, and it does. But if we use a 0.30 second window, the Gonkulator also says that the 265/180 and 389/235 Pontiac and even the 260/164 Falcon should win “sometimes”, and they do. Outside the .30 second window, the Gonkulator says those cars wont win, ever. Not if any other cars show up. And after the 1st appearance of the 265/195 cars (in 1965) and the 265/180 cars (in 1967), those cars below the cutoff stop winning.

    Why don’t the 265’s show up until 1965? Maybe somebody here knows. Maybe replacement heads became legal then or some other change in the specs. The SuperChevy article Loudbang found mentions 283 replacement heads (likely the “520” heads) on Lambeck’s 283/283 car (12.85 ET & 107.14 MPH records set in 1967 in W/P=11.30 class and 11.00 class):

    http://www.superchevy.com/features/1901-tips-how-to-build-12-second-dstock-fuel-injected-1957-chevy

    I don’t know for sure but I’ve been guessing the “520” heads 1st appeared in 1966 when the 327/275 came out, which is part of the reason it gained 25 rated hp over its predecessor the 327/250. I’ve also heard the “520” heads date back to the early 1960s but the part number lines up better with a 1966 date. Anybody have evidence of the “520” heads running prior to 1966 or maybe late 1965?

    In any case, once the 265/195 shows up, it dominates the class. That is, until the legal cheater cam era of 1968 begins. We saw above that the 265/180 picked up .38 ET (Gonkulated) just from its cheater cam, which was enough to propel it past the 265/195 and become the winning combo (well, especially after the 265/195 got banned in 1970). The tiny cam in the 265/180 was just WAITING to get a fatter profile, and its 4bbl was big enough to let in all that cheater cam air.

    Not all the “classes” come out this clean – sometimes a combo wins and the Gonkulator just can’t explain why. Other times, the Gonkulator says a combo should win, but it doesn’t show up. Often it’s an expensive, newer car, like a 421HO Bonneville convertible, and probably without factory money, nobody wanted to gut one and race it in Junior Stock. Makes sense.

    It’s fascinating for me, even addictive (103F, too hot to work outside yesterday) to run the numbers on this old stuff, and perhaps raises some questions that some of you here can comment on.
    Sorry about the length, it's all the doggone numbers!!!
     
  11. vinfab
    Joined: Apr 18, 2006
    Posts: 186

    vinfab
    Member

    WerbyFord, you are correct in that the 520 head first appeared in 66. However, the 520 head was used only on the 195 and 220 HP 283s for 66 and 67 for full size, Chevelles and Chevy IIs. The 327/275s received the 462 1.94/1.5 valve head and was the reason for the 25 horse jump.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2019
  12. Terry Bell
    Joined: Apr 21, 2016
    Posts: 165

    Terry Bell

    Ya beat me to it ! You are correct.
     
  13. WerbyFord
    Joined: Nov 4, 2011
    Posts: 101

    WerbyFord
    Member

    Vinfab & Terry:
    I don't know where I got that other info unless I just decided the 327/275 "must have had" small heads, otherwise it would be a 327/300. But sure enough, now that I look in the NHRA blueprint files, there it is, big heads.

    This does raise a serious question though that you guys might know (and it applies pre-1965 so I think we're "legal" even during the stand-down):
    When I compare the 327/275 and 327/300 NHRA files, they are now IDENTICAL in 1966, same heads, cam, intake, compression. The only diff is the 327/275 uses a 550cfm Holley in 1966, and the 327/300 uses a 600cfm Holley. That's about a 2hp difference.

    In 1968, the 327/275 and 327/300 specs (both Q-jet) are exactly identical.
    So the question is, was the 327/"300" really an (identical) 327/275 all along???

    Ford wanted a "300hp" engine back then, so they first just rated their 352-4bbl at 352/"300hp" in 1958-60, even though it really made maybe 270hp. Then, Ford's 390 came out in 1961, and 48 more inches added exactly ZERO hp - so we got the 390/"300"hp, which still only made about 280-285hp. Did Chevy just want to match Ford's "300hp" so they rated the 327/300 that way, even though it too only made about 275-280hp?
     
    loudbang and Bowtie Coupe like this.
  14. vinfab
    Joined: Apr 18, 2006
    Posts: 186

    vinfab
    Member

    The 66 327 275 and 300 horse engines both used the 462 head castings and the 798 casting hyd. cam. The difference was the 275 had 1.94/1.5 valves and the 300 was cut for 2.02/1.6 valves. 66 was a strange year for the 327/275 option. Early in the production run, they came with the 550 cfm Holley, or a Carter AVS. Later in the year, this was changed to a Rochester Quadrajet.
     
  15. Terry Bell
    Joined: Apr 21, 2016
    Posts: 165

    Terry Bell

    As far as I know the 2.02 x 1.60 valve only came on the 350 HP head in 1966 on the Corvette and Chev. II. Both were called L79's !
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2019
  16. WGuy
    Joined: Mar 13, 2008
    Posts: 400

    WGuy
    Member
    from Central NJ

    I just found out today: RIP George (Soupy) Supinsky.
    Supinski '62.jpg Supensky'62 D-S.jpg
     
  17. Offset
    Joined: Nov 9, 2010
    Posts: 1,731

    Offset
    Member
    from Canada

    Rest in Peace George.

    Condolence to family and friends.
     
  18. vinfab
    Joined: Apr 18, 2006
    Posts: 186

    vinfab
    Member

    I stand corrected. I rechecked my reference books and I was looking one line down from where I should have been. So it appears there is very little difference between a 327/275 and a 327/300. The only other reason I can think of is that possibly the 300 horse option came with a less restrictive exhaust (i.e. bigger head and tail pipes and larger mufflers) such as the 70 Z28, 360 horse versus the 70 Corvette, 370 horse. But in all probability its just Marketing and Advertising.
     
    Bowtie Coupe, WerbyFord and loudbang like this.
  19. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 13,675

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    Correct.

    A wee bit into OT territory but look at the 350 h.p. 66 Nova L79 and the 67 oddity.
    The 67 still had the same camshaft, 11 to 1 compression and 2.02 heads as the 66 but instead of the aluminum intake/Holley carb combo of the 66 GM changed to a cast iron intake/quadrajet carb for the 67 and dropped the advertised horsepower by 25 h.p.
    I still scratch my head over that one.
     
    Bowtie Coupe likes this.
  20. 56sedandelivery
    Joined: Nov 21, 2006
    Posts: 6,261

    56sedandelivery
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    George SUPINSKI, he wound up with the Yoo Hoo Too, 56 Chevrolet Sedan Delivery, Junior Stocker of Tony Massari and Wayne Jesel; the second version that was painted with white and blue stripes vertically across the car (truck); or was it blue and white stripes? Same car later was "converted" into a 2 door Station Wagon, a Handyman Wagon, then went on to Canada I heard (???). Anyone know what happened to it then? And how about John Diana's Delivery; where did it wind up? Too nice of cars to just disappear. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.
     
  21. vinfab
    Joined: Apr 18, 2006
    Posts: 186

    vinfab
    Member

    Butch, I too have wondered where some of these cars that I was exposed to by the pages of Hot Rod and Car Craft magazines went to. About 10 years ago I was at a swap meet in Freemont NE. There was a vender there selling photos. As I was paging thru the albums I stubbled across a photo of John Dianna's Sedan Delivery in its familiar white and blue with red stripe paint scheme. But John's name was not on the car. At the time of the photo, it was campaigned by a Lloyd Dickson from Kearny NE. and sponsored by a Kearny Chevrolet dealership. 5 years later, I found a post on the Class Racer website from a Dick Butler of Richman IN., who claimed he was the third owner of the car. He stated in the post that under his ownership he raced and then converted the car to a Handyman wagon, but no longer owned it. The trail goes cold there, but leaves hope that it still may be out there. My scanner died, but as soon as I can replace it I will post the photo of the car when raced from Nebraska.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2019
  22. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 29,970

    loudbang
    Member

    1947knuck, 63savoy, tommyd and 6 others like this.
  23. WerbyFord
    Joined: Nov 4, 2011
    Posts: 101

    WerbyFord
    Member

    Here is a link where Dick Butler talks about finishing runner-up O/SA at 1970 Indy in the ex-Dianna converted car:
    http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=62510&page=4

    Note all the talk in there about NHRA's FACTORING. One good thing about the pre-1965 era - there was no Factoring (maybe shoulda been but there wasn't) unless you count the Race Hemi and Ford HiRiser.
     
    vinfab, loudbang and Tom 57 150 like this.
  24. Jimbo17
    Joined: Aug 19, 2008
    Posts: 3,718

    Jimbo17
    Member

    loudbang likes this.
  25. 56sedandelivery
    Joined: Nov 21, 2006
    Posts: 6,261

    56sedandelivery
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    loudbang likes this.
  26. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 29,970

    loudbang
    Member

    Looks like good old Nitrocellulose Lacquer Black. :)
     
    1947knuck and enloe like this.
  27. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 29,970

    loudbang
    Member

    1947knuck, 63savoy, enloe and 2 others like this.
  28. Valiant is to new lb
     
    Tom 57 150 likes this.
  29. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 29,970

    loudbang
    Member

    What year is it?
     
    1947knuck and enloe like this.
  30. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 29,970

    loudbang
    Member

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2020 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.