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History NHRA Junior Stock

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by colesy, Aug 12, 2007.

  1. Junior Stock
    Joined: Aug 24, 2004
    Posts: 1,823

    Junior Stock

    That Monte would have to be a very rare I would think.

    I have a classification guide I bought in 96 when I was building a 68 Chevelle with a 396/375 and turbo 400. It got stuck in paint jail and after I got it back I had already put everything in a Nova so I sold it to a friend who finished it and after running it for a couple of years was told by a fellow racer that the 400 was never offered that year. It passed tech in several divisions and is now shown to be legal since they started differentiating be between standards and automatics.

    My question to the Kentuckian and Mr. Bell, was there another classification book that broke down what trans were available with the different HP motors?
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
  2. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 39,673

    loudbang
    Member

    Land of NED Gods Country

    17.JPG
     
  3. 1934coupe
    Joined: Feb 22, 2007
    Posts: 4,681

    1934coupe
    Member

    LB that looks like Island Dragway NJ. I remember going to the track with a adult friend who had a brand new 62 Chevy 409. ran S/S if you had slicks you ran SS/S.

    Pat
     
  4. Terry Bell
    Joined: Apr 21, 2016
    Posts: 189

    Terry Bell

    Jr. STOCK.. In a couple of my very old classification guides the car wt breaks showed a heavier shipping wt when equipped with the Turbo 400 trans over the 350 turbo trans or P/G. The stick shift cars used the lighter trans weights. I don't have those guides any more and don't remember if the Fords or Mopars showed the same thing or not. When NHRA started allowing all the cars to go to the min. weight for their class the class guides changed to not showing the different wts IF I remember right. Its been a long time ago when that happened. Maybe the Kentuckian can remember better than me. LOTS of rules and things change from back in the day to now. We had to be "Car Guys" to know and remember some of this stuff during that period of time.
    Then NHRA allowed lighter duty (Turbo 350) auto trans to replace the HD(Turbo 400) auto trans (Which some guys had already done) some time after that. Some tech guys were to lazy to get down and look for which trans the racer had in his/her car but it was illegal to run a C-4 in place of a C-6 and the same to run a Turbo 350 in place of a Turbo 400 back in the good old days. I never saw a 1968 Chevelle 396/375 running a 400 Turbo at the track or on the street until the '69s came out but I was still stuck in the Army back in 1968.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
  5. Jimbo17
    Joined: Aug 19, 2008
    Posts: 3,827

    Jimbo17
    Member

    Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words!
    Jimbo

    Land of NED.jpg
     
  6. WerbyFord
    Joined: Nov 4, 2011
    Posts: 124

    WerbyFord
    Member

    IIRC for the 396/375-L78:
    * For 1966-67, 4spd only
    * For 1968, the Nova (a few of them) offered the L78 with T400 but not Chevelle or Camaro
    * For 1969, all L78 had the T400 option.
    So a 68 Nova L78/T400 was NHRA legal, but a 68 Chevelle L78/T400 was not.
    Agreed, it is VERY hard to sort out details like that.

    FACTORING is even worse!
    Right now I'm chasing the 428CJ.
    I've always heard the 428CJ/"335hp" (LOL) was factored at:
    360hp R-code cold air
    340hp W-code underhood air
    I'm starting to believe that BOTH were factored to 360hp in 1968 (most of the 428CJ cars in 1968 were Mustangs, all with cold air so it didn't matter).
    And in the current NHRA Excel files, the factoring formulas for the 428CJ all have "365" in them somewhere.
    So I wonder now, was the 428CJ factored to 365hp way back when? Don't know.
    Maybe I'll just watch the Michigan-Wisconsin game instead, it's easier!
     
  7. Terry Bell
    Joined: Apr 21, 2016
    Posts: 189

    Terry Bell

    I h
    I have one just like the picture on my Craftsman tool box !
     
  8. Terry Bell
    Joined: Apr 21, 2016
    Posts: 189

    Terry Bell

    All 50 of the 1968 "RACE" 428 CJ's were a little liter than the regular Mustangs. They also had a modified rear wheel tub to use the 10.5 inch tires in Super Stock. They also came with what was called the "Canadian Head" which had 10 C.C. larger intake ports....everything else was the same. Ford made 52 pairs of heads for the 50 cars. Just 2 extra pair in case of blow ups. Look for the area by the spark plug area. It has a clock face on the standard heads and just a DOT in the same place for the Canadian head. Easy to spot. The guys I did heads for back in 1969 thru around 1975 or so each had a pair. They were Jim Morgan and Dickie Estivez both from Maryland. Dickie had the 1968 Winter Nats. S/S winner that was raced by Al Joniac out of "Rice-Holman Ford" in N.J. They both held S/S records back in the day and Jim Morgan driving his 1969 Convertible in SS/I and later a fast back was Div. One S/S champion 2 or 3 times then also. My guess is the 68's were factored later as NHRA was not checking the heads for CC volume back then and I was the guy who told Greg X. and NHRA about the Canadian head which was only legal on the 68 Lite Wts after they found out about them. Then when later changes came along all 428 CJ's could use them as long as you claimed to have the because of the larger intake ports. Kind of like the small block Chevy heads using the 461 and the 461 X heads. The X heads had to carry more weight because they also had 10 CC larger intake ports. I believe they all came on the FI Corvettes. This was way before the NHRA started to allow porting and polishing in Super Stock !
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
  9. WerbyFord
    Joined: Nov 4, 2011
    Posts: 124

    WerbyFord
    Member

    Thanks Terry for the Canadian heads info. I had heard about them but didn't know about the 10cc.
    Ford had a bad habit of feeding a few racers stuff that regular people couldn't get.
    Looks like NHRA now allows them for 1968-69, all cars, and they get "factored" 10-20hp higher than the stock c8oe-n Cobra Jet heads. I wonder if the Canadians got rid of those thermactor ports that screwed up the exhaust port roofs too. Then they would be as good as the old 427 Low Riser heads.

    Well a different question for all here:
    Gary Westfall won G/SA=10.00 class in the 71 Indy Nationals. I had 5 different guesses for his car since the sheet doesn't give the make or even the year.

    It looks like this link is a hint. SS/IA=10.00 for 1973-74, so it would be the same combo as G/SA=10.00 in 1971.
    My bet is Gary's car was a 67 Camaro L48 (powerglide!) and after the rules change of 1972, he moved it from stock to SS rules.

    Trouble is, Westfall went 12.10 at 110.15 in G/SA to win 71 Indy and that is movin' out for a powerglide L48, even with a cheater cam. Wondered if anybody knows for sure about this car.

    https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/nhra-junior-stock.201085/page-159

    This other link also confirms Westfall's car named "Stormalong".
    http://pub9.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=771164287&frmid=112&msgid=422338&cmd=show
     
    loudbang likes this.
  10. corncobcoupe
    Joined: May 26, 2001
    Posts: 5,727

    corncobcoupe
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    Hey fellas - this post is really going of course for the HAMB with much newer cars than 1964.
    Please post ON TOPIC cars or the post will be closed.

    Thanks
     
  11. Terry Bell
    Joined: Apr 21, 2016
    Posts: 189

    Terry Bell

    Maybe sense the NHRA Jr. stock period that ran on 7 inch tires ran up through and including 1971. MAYBE the site should allow posts and replies up through and including 1971 also. During 1972 and after that it all turned to crap. There was no more Jr. stock. A lot of history happened after 1964 in Jr, stock !!!!!! Just saying. Please look into it and see if the Jr. stock part of the HAMB can be raised to 1971..I graduated high school in 1964 and that makes me 73 years old. . Most from the era before 1964 that ran Jr. stock or were interested in Jr. stock are probably dead or in a nursing home by now, OR they can't remember any of it. This sites name is the "HISTORY" of NHRA Jr. Stock. Please give it some thought about raising this section up to 1971 after lasting 12 years and 517 pages !
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
  12. WerbyFord
    Joined: Nov 4, 2011
    Posts: 124

    WerbyFord
    Member

    Corncob,
    Hey I don't think any of us meant to violate anything here - since you posted this right after my last post, which was indeed about 1967-69 cars, I'll give my own take on the thread.

    I wasn't aware of a 1964 cutoff but if that's what the site has, that's ok, I know I can work within that now that I know, well, unless I forget.

    It will make it a bit awkward though, because the NHRA Junior Stock era is usually discussed in a range from the late 1950s up through 1971. After that, all the NHRA rules changed so it was a very sudden ending. So conversation about "Junior Stock" tends to range freely right up through the early 1960s into 1971, but then suddenly stops there.

    I've looked for other threads, even other forums, on this topic but they are much slower, less interactive, etc. This is the best such thread by far. I learn a tremendous amount on this thread about the whole era due to the people contributing actively. If we have to limit the cars to 1964 or older I can sure do that now that I know, but it might make the thread more coherent if we could just cover the Junior Stock era from 1950s-1971. What do you think? Or is 1964 the official cutoff?

    I remember a similar discussion back in the 1970s, when we had 40 Ford Coupes in the Ford-Merc Restorers club & Early V-8 Club. The "new" cars, meaning post-ww2 1946-48 flatheads, were not officially allowed in, but started showing up at our meets. The clubs decided IIRC to let them in, but NO WAY would we allow "New Cars" like the 1949-53 flatheads in. Times sure change.
     
  13. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 39,673

    loudbang
    Member

  14. Jimbo17
    Joined: Aug 19, 2008
    Posts: 3,827

    Jimbo17
    Member

    loudbang likes this.
  15. Terry Bell
    Joined: Apr 21, 2016
    Posts: 189

    Terry Bell

    Lets all go back to 1956. Lets see A/Stock was 15.0 to 16.99 lbs per HP. B/Stock was 17.0 to 20.99 lbs per HP. C/Stock was 21.0 to 26.99 lbs per HP and last but not least D/Stock was 27.0 lbs per HP !
    Doesn't THAT sound exciting to talk about ? 4 classes that sticks and automatics ran together in heads up and A/Stock was the same wt. break as O/S is in 1971 or even today !
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
    Bowtie Coupe and Chuck Norton like this.
  16. Jimmy Parker
    Joined: Aug 26, 2009
    Posts: 34

    Jimmy Parker
    Member

    GM never made a 68 Chevelle 375 with an automatic transmission, this combo got added to the classification guide years later for some reason or another. As far as I can remember Chevrolet never used an automatic behind a solid lifter engine until '69 but the Z-28 didn't get the auto until '70. I had the NHRA red books from the late 60ties but I sent them to Dwight Southerland when he started his forum. Jimmy Parker
     
  17. carcruse
    Joined: Aug 20, 2007
    Posts: 885

    carcruse
    Member

    Jimmy Parker, please be carefull what you post, we do not want this thread closed.
     
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  18. Unique Rustorations
    Joined: Nov 15, 2018
    Posts: 623

    Unique Rustorations
    Member

    X2


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
  19. WerbyFord
    Joined: Nov 4, 2011
    Posts: 124

    WerbyFord
    Member

    Just to confirm, before I run some more numbers, that looks like a 55 Vic hardtop, not a 56, right?
    The 292/198hp is a good fit to the B/S=W/P=17.00 class back then.
    (Edit, well now I'm not so sure. I'm guessing a little cuz NHRA doesn't publish Ford shipping weight data back past 1960 any more).
    A few places say that the 292/198hp was an option in the Fairlane, BUT:
    * My 1955 shop manual (Dated Nov 54) says the Ford was 272cid max. Only the Bird got the 292.
    * Sometimes things changed mid-year (even then, thanks to the doggone Mouse heating up the power war).
    * So I looked in the 1949-59 parts book, obviously from 1959. It still says no 292cid for the Ford, just the Bird.
    * So was this car a 292/198hp or a 272/182hp which is a much poorer fit to class?

    It seems the NHRA rules circa 1955-56 were a lot more like 1972:
    * Iron manifolds
    * Run thru the mufflers
    * Factory air cleaner (yuck)
    * Column Shifters
    * Street tires (1 size bigger & softer rubber ok)
    It kinda slows the car down a little bit..... like 1.3-1 6 seconds and 5-8mph slower.
    It's worth it for me to Gonkulate the old pre-Junior-Stock era, but the problem is, data is so SCARCE.
    It's hard to find even the nationals results back then, and often ET was not even recorded, just MPH and "who won".

    MEANWHILE,
    I do hope Corncob considers allowing the full Junior Stock era in here, up thru 1971.
    It's like waiting for the Supreme Court to rule on interstate sales tax or something.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
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  20. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 39,673

    loudbang
    Member


    Yes it is a 55 and I had one and yes the 272 was standard in the Fords except the T Bird. In 56 you could get the 292 in all the Fords.
     
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  21. 1934coupe
    Joined: Feb 22, 2007
    Posts: 4,681

    1934coupe
    Member

    This thread is so interesting and full of detective work, puzzles and clues. Tempestuous is out of Mattys Speed Shop and Matty Winspurs ran the "Fabulous Hudson Hornet"
    "I think Matty owned Matty's Speed Shop in Monroe, Connecticut back in those days."
    Jimbo
    That is all correct. and yes that is Joe Tanner. Jimbo.
    The FTA on front fender stands for Fairfield Timing Association out of CT.

    Pat
     
  22. Terry Bell
    Joined: Apr 21, 2016
    Posts: 189

    Terry Bell

    Same with me. I sent my early old IHRA book of engine specs. to Dwight also about a year ago. Now I have to try to remember the old stuff ! My Red covered class wt. break book from NHRA ended up getting thrown away about 1972 as so many things changed and Jr. stock no longer existed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
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  23. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 39,673

    loudbang
    Member

  24. Chuck Norton
    Joined: Apr 23, 2009
    Posts: 696

    Chuck Norton
    Member
    from Division 7

    Tom 57 150, 1934coupe and loudbang like this.
  25. Terry Bell
    Joined: Apr 21, 2016
    Posts: 189

    Terry Bell

    Yes its Joe Kenny. He was killed later on in a pvt. airplane crash that another racer was flying. I don't remember the pilots name but he raced a 1957or a 1961 Corvette in Jr. Stock. Both were out of Div. 1 .
     
  26. Terry Bell
    Joined: Apr 21, 2016
    Posts: 189

    Terry Bell

    While I'm on here does anyone remember when stockers were allowed headers ? It was 1961. Exhaust cut outs with OEM exhaust manifolds were allowed in 1960. Prior to 1960 the stockers had to run thru the OEM manifolds and a real exhaust system with mufflers.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
  27. Chuck Norton
    Joined: Apr 23, 2009
    Posts: 696

    Chuck Norton
    Member
    from Division 7

    About ten years ago, on this very thread, Mark Yacavone stated that Joe was a passenger in a light plane that crashed while being piloted by Ralph Feola. I had met Joe on at least one occasion but I never knew Ralph Feola. Tragic loss of life!
     
  28. Chuck Norton
    Joined: Apr 23, 2009
    Posts: 696

    Chuck Norton
    Member
    from Division 7

    That's why I couldn't come up with an answer to the question! I didn't arrive in California until 1961 and one of the first cars that I remember from my first visit to Lion's Drag Strip was Don Nicholson's '61 409 that was sponsored by Service Chevrolet of Pasadena. The heavy hitters definitely had headers on their Stockers in 1961.
     
  29. Terry Bell
    Joined: Apr 21, 2016
    Posts: 189

    Terry Bell

    We can ALWAYS rely on Chuck to bring in the details. I was getting ready to post Ralphs name as I found an old magazine with an article about Joe and Ralph with pictures of their cars. Then it dawned on me. Yes it was tragic as I had also met Joe earlier on and then he was gone.
     
  30. WerbyFord
    Joined: Nov 4, 2011
    Posts: 124

    WerbyFord
    Member

    I have NHRA rulebooks from 1958-68, still hunting for most others.
    Here's what I get from the exhaust section for stock:

    1958-60 headers OK but have to run thru OEM size pipes, mufflers. Duals ok.
    (It surprised me that they mention headers as early as 1958!)

    1961-62: open headers (cutouts) ok but have to run same size open pipe as OEM headpipe.

    1963: Open headers & pipes max 3.5” ie anything.

    It sure would help if NHRA put a lot of the early stuff online - classification guides, DETAILED engine blueprints (the ones online now are missing a lot of stuff) etc. I don't have any of that early stuff so have to ask around piece by piece which takes a lot of people's time. This history - and its numbers - needs to be kept / archived!
     
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