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Technical New wagon...loses power on ANY incline?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by SpazTaztic, Dec 10, 2016.

  1. "I have never heard of a water pump binding so bad that it bogged an engine down"

    It sounds like parts and labor are now being thrown at the car, without an accurate diagnosis of what works and what doesn't work.
    It all began with a dual action fuel pump, in an attempt to correct a vacuum leak, which turned out to be OK.
    Without reading through all this thread again, I am wondering if a dry and wet compression test was performed, to verify compression numbers, as a base point of knowledge.
    I know I would not be pleased as this bill climbs higher and higher, with no positive results.
    Good diagnostics is always the key to a successful repair.



     
    doyoulikesleds, jw179251 and RMONTY like this.
  2. I have given this "water pump" concern more thought.
    If the water pump was "seized" and stopped moving, the belt would get hot and break, because the belt is the weak link in this chain. Friction is the enemy of the belt.
    If the water pump turned freely and occasionally "seized", the same end result would apply, the belt would get hot, from the friction, then break.
    I have never seen the above happen, have to say that as well ...... but anything is possible.
    If the above did happen, why even consider "rebuilding the existing pump", when pumps are readily available?
    As an example, I see O'Reilleys Auto Parts carries them for $50.00, off the shelf.
    Rock Auto has 4 choices of water pumps, as well, beginning at $56.00.
    If .... and I mean if the pump is a true suspect, I would not consider doing anything to that existing pump, except turn it in for a core, if requested.
    I hope your "no power gremlin" is discovered and solved.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
  3. SpazTaztic
    Joined: Aug 5, 2009
    Posts: 430

    SpazTaztic
    Member

    Im going to stop by on my way home to check in on the progress as the water pump issue was brought up friday. If they dont make any progress by monday- it will be going somewhere else. Im not going to spend tons of money on diagnosing if it is cheaper to take it somewhere else and have it rebuilt.
     
  4. It's been suggested at least a dozen times.
    A friends dad was supposed to stop by with gauges,,,
    A compression test should be the #1 step on a problem that presents like this. If it can't pass that test every second and every nickel spent is waisted.

    Especially the drag from the water pump. HELL NO !! A belt driven accessory will not bog down any engine with good compression. If the compression is low and questionable any load no matter how small will drag the minimal available torque away from the driveline. You'll feel that.

     
  5. BamaMav
    Joined: Jun 19, 2011
    Posts: 1,500

    BamaMav
    Member
    from Berry, AL

    I used to think that too until I saw a seized up alternator keep an engine from turning over. That one froze when the engine was shut down. Had to take the belt off to crank it. I had an alternator freeze up while the engine was running one time, engine suddenly wouldn't idle, it would kill it out. It would run at higher RPM's with a lot of squealing and belt smoke. I doubt a water pump would do that though. Most water pump belts only contact the pulley on about 1/4 of the diameter, alternator may have contact on 3/4 of the diameter.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  6. Spaz, are you aware of what is done to rebuild a water pump??
    If your mind is set on another part replacement, just replace the water pump, don't screw around with the existing pump ....... if you and your mechanic are of the belief that the problem is a water pump issue.
    Unless these guys are doing this work on a "gratis" basis, you're already spending lots of needless cash.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2017
  7. Spaz,
    Read pages 6-99 to 6-101, regarding the rebuild of a 216/235 water pump.
    Begin on 6-99 under major service.
    Is this something you want your mechanic to do, or is it more feasible to buy the pump off the shelf, in the auto parts store ?
    http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/shop/1949_53/06engine/6_099.HTM
    The labor time to rebuild the existing pump will exceed the purchase price of the rebuilt pump, in the auto parts store.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2017
  8. belair
    Joined: Jul 10, 2006
    Posts: 6,673

    belair
    Member
    1. H.A.M.B. Chapel

    If the belt didn't burn off and break, the shaft on the seized water pump would probably snap. Or the bushing would burn up and then it would be obvious what the problem was. Something has to give, the belt or the pump. Just replace the water pump if you want to throw money that possibility. Or take a short trip with the belt off and see if all the missing power re-appears. I have seen so many threads like this where the op gets tons of consistent, good advise and ignores it, chasing rabbits and telling us how it still won't fix. Do a compression test, fix or eliminate the dual action fuel pump. You're wasting everyone's time and goodwill until you cover the basics.
     
    bobg1951chevy and Bellytanker like this.
  9. Well stated belair.
    We REALLY try to get the problem solved, try not to say "maybe its this or that", but the poster has to take to heart, as to what is being suggested and advised.
    In my case, the suggestions and advice come from many, many years with GM Chevy Division, as my employer.
    The good advice here, from many qualified individuals ..... PLUS a KNOWLEDGABLE "hands on" mechanic will see the poster through this mess.
     
  10. RMONTY
    Joined: Jan 7, 2016
    Posts: 484

    RMONTY

    It's such a cool old wagon.... it's a shame it's not already being driven all over south east Texas. With the amount of time it's been in the shop for a starter issue and more than likely a tuning issue, it could have had the engine rebuilt. Good luck with it Spaz.
     
  11. SpazTaztic
    Joined: Aug 5, 2009
    Posts: 430

    SpazTaztic
    Member

    Hey guys- the shop hasnt touched it since last week. Went by last night to talk to them about it. The mechanic was pulled off by owner for a priority job someone was paying extra to get through quick. I havent talked to the mechanic yet- just the guy who schedules stuff. When belt is off- power IS back. He said he ran the compression checks and they were good, and that that is what had him baffled.

    As for the not taking advice comments, I have been dealing with some personal emergencies during this time too. Im just trying to keep you guys updated with what I know for the time being, but my mind hasnt been fully on the wagon the last couple of weeks. So my apologies to those who think I am dragging this out- not my intention. The thread can be deleted if you want. Just trying to learn as I go while dealing with life on top of the car.
     
    rjones35, upspirate and loudbang like this.
  12. Rocky
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 13,393

    Rocky
    Classified Editor

    Deleted? Are you serious? We can't wait to see the conclusion to this adventure! Plus, I'd imagine a lot of the younger guys are sitting in on this thread to get a little 3rd person experience on old cars. It's too valuable to delete.
     
  13. SpazTaztic
    Joined: Aug 5, 2009
    Posts: 430

    SpazTaztic
    Member

    Talked to the shop briefly today. They tried a shorter belt with just crank and waterpump leaving out generator. Said full power is there minus the hiccups from just running on battery only. The belt they tried to get to just test crank with generator leaving out waterpump came in too short, so waiting to get right size to test that. They said they will have generator tested on monday. If it is the culprit, go back generator or just go for an alt?
     
  14. RMONTY
    Joined: Jan 7, 2016
    Posts: 484

    RMONTY

    Without doing a bit of electrical work, my opinion is leave it 6 volts until ready to convert it all to 12 volts with modern wiring. I don't have any idea what the wiring in your car looks like, but I am sure it needs to be "freshened up" at some point in the near future. Get the generator rebuilt, make sure all else is well and drive it for a bit!
     
  15. SpazTaztic
    Joined: Aug 5, 2009
    Posts: 430

    SpazTaztic
    Member

    New sending unit came in and was exact same as the cheaper $40 unti from chevs of the 40s. Nothing like the picture. Contacted them this morning and they are looking for the unit like they have advertised- will send if they actually have it.

    Shop wasn't happy with the starter rebuild- so took it somewhere else to have it done again. No charge on that. Waiting to get it back to test drive with just crank and generator to see if generator is causing draw. They are going to replace the line from the tank to the pump just to eliminate the fuel system entirely.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  16. image.jpeg

    I've see this approach before
     
  17. SpazTaztic
    Joined: Aug 5, 2009
    Posts: 430

    SpazTaztic
    Member

    To be honest- I am about ready to pull it and just park it til next year. Too much stuff going on to be able to keep up with calling them every other day to check on if any progress has been made. I will give them til Friday next week(because I couldn't get it before then). Then I will pull it and take it somewhere else or park it. Depends on how the week goes.
     
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  18. blvdbill
    Joined: Feb 2, 2010
    Posts: 96

    blvdbill
    Member
    from California

    Check to see if there is a filter on the carb inlet ,that will cause it to lose power going up hill
     
  19. SpazTaztic
    Joined: Aug 5, 2009
    Posts: 430

    SpazTaztic
    Member

    There are no filters between the new fuel pump and the carb. I verified that myself. As far as from the pump to the tank- there was an inline filter and then the sock in the tank.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  20. RMONTY
    Joined: Jan 7, 2016
    Posts: 484

    RMONTY

    Hey Spaz....just checking in with you to see how you ended up with the wagon? I hope you get it all sorted out.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  21. Engine man
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 2,917

    Engine man
    Member
    from Wisconsin

    I've had and seen alternator bearings or AC clutch bearings seize and the belt either breaks or burns off depending on how much traction it has on the seized pulley.
     
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  22. Engine man
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 2,917

    Engine man
    Member
    from Wisconsin

    Maybe the generator isn't polarized and is drawing the voltage down instead of increasing it.
     
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  23. SpazTaztic
    Joined: Aug 5, 2009
    Posts: 430

    SpazTaztic
    Member

    Hey guys, sorry it has been a while since my last update. My supervisor's daughter has been in hospital with organ failure- so been covering double shifts.

    I just picked up wagon yesterday. All is working excepft for the gas gauge(still have yet to find the right sending unit yet). The mechanic said it was a combination of restriction in fuel system and things not firing right. But she runs at 65 with no problems now!

    I drove her for about 20 minutes and stopped to top off with gas and notices her steaming from the breather in the valve cover. I checked fluid levels and all is good. Temp gauge showed she was good, but that just seems like she was running warm- or is that normal?
     
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  24. Rocky
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 13,393

    Rocky
    Classified Editor

    A little steam coming from the valve cover vent after shut-off is normal.
     
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  25. belair
    Joined: Jul 10, 2006
    Posts: 6,673

    belair
    Member
    1. H.A.M.B. Chapel

    Good news. Hope the fixes stick.
     
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  26. Dan Timberlake
    Joined: Apr 28, 2010
    Posts: 1,154

    Dan Timberlake
    Member

    "it was a combination of restriction in fuel system and things not firing right.

    I'm glad it's fixed, but a bunch of times, starting with post 11 on page one, folks suggested fuel pressure and volume delivery checks deeper than simply looking at or replacing filters.

    Item 3 on Chevy's own "troubles and remedies" trouble shooting chart.
    http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/shop/1949_53/06engine/6_055.HTM
    http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/shop/1949_53/06engine/6_055.HTM

    http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/shop/1949_53/06engine/6_090.HTM

    A delivery test can be done with no tools other than a screwdriver and container to catch the gasoline that flows from the fuel line disconnected at the carb when cranking the engine.

    A gauge to measure the pressure AND tune using manifold vacuum ain't that pricey.
    https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/BK_7001715
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wmr-w80594
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
    loudbang likes this.
  27. So what did they charge you for this, in the end an old fashioned tune-up?
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
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  28. porknbeaner
    Joined: Sep 12, 2003
    Posts: 37,979

    porknbeaner
    Member

    LOL it is a 235 after all, makes less power from the factory than a Prius. First thing I would change is the engine, a 283 FI would be my first choice if I was a rich man. :D

    I would do a compression check, and a full tune up. Compression may be low but it should still pull itself. Hell even with the 5 speed and a 3.73 gears in the ravens AD truck that old worn out 235 still got right down the road and it had so little compression that we used to roll the motor over by pulling on the fan when we were tuning it up.
     
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  29. It was sitting a while and you may have some condensation built up inside the engine. Drive the hell out of it. When was the last oil change?
     
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  30. SpazTaztic
    Joined: Aug 5, 2009
    Posts: 430

    SpazTaztic
    Member

    Ok guys. Here is the latest:

    I picked her up monday and drove for 20 minutes and parked in my uncles garage(close to shop). Uncle called last night and said that fuel was leaking all over his floor and he wanted it out as of last night. I showed up and there were a few drops under where the old sending unit gasket leaked because I topped her off on the way to his house.

    I have been working about 18-20 hours a day and my commute is minimum 2 hours each way, so my reponses in here will still not be as quick as I wish I could get to.

    I got off last night- drove home for the key- drove baqck to his house and got wagon. Drove to walmart and picked up a few things and then drove for about 30 minutes at about 65 and everything was cruising excellently... THEN my trans dropped out of gear and I slowed to a stop on the shoulder. Only low and reverse works now since. So I limped it at 30 mph to my parents house that was closest to where I broke down. When I turned it off- radiator started puking... gauge showed temp was fine. This was all about midnight last night and I had to be back on the road at 4am to get back to work. So left her there and will check on her after work. I did not have time to check trans fluid to see if it blew a seal again and leaked out- or shift linkage just wasnt set right. As far as the radiator... I may have lost another belt- then water pump wouldnt be working... will check all that tonight.

    Question for you guys- what do you think of the new aluminum radiators for these guys? I was thinking about getting one and adding an overflow to the system.

    I am exhausted, and gotta get back to work now. Will try to get on and answer any questions tomorrow if I can get a chance. I wish I had more time to just work on this myself instead of letting a shop do it...

    -Spaz
     

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