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New Twist on the Pinion Angle Question

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by rogeroadster, Nov 8, 2013.

  1. rogeroadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2007
    Posts: 146

    rogeroadster
    Member
    from Corona, CA

    I'm installing a '37 Ford rear end in a modified model A frame using a Model A transverse spring and a T-5 trans. The angle of the transmission tail shaft is 3 degrees down. How do I get the pinion angled 3 degrees up without getting a lot of bind in the spring shackles? There is no correction built in to the rear crossmember and I'd like to stay with the original Ford spring hangers. I'm using hairpin radius rods similar to a ladder bar set up to set the pinion angle. Short of heating and bending the spring hangers by 3 degrees, does any one have any ideas?
     
  2. What's the angle at now ?

    And are you wanting to go 3* up to the rear or 3* down to the rear and be parallel with the Trans center line ?
     
  3. rogeroadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2007
    Posts: 146

    rogeroadster
    Member
    from Corona, CA

    Right now it is zero give or take a degree. I want the pinion yoke to angle up so as to be parallel to the trans tail shaft.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2013
  4. You could put your axle ends of the shackles on a pivot.
     

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  5. EnglishBob
    Joined: Jan 19, 2008
    Posts: 1,029

    EnglishBob
    Member

    Could you not make an angled shim to fit between the spring and the cossmember?
     
  6. rogeroadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2007
    Posts: 146

    rogeroadster
    Member
    from Corona, CA

    Yes, I'm thinking this is a good option. Then I suppose I would also need to mill a 3 degree angle into the bars that holds the spring into the crossmember. All this to correct for the fact that I did not allow for this when I modified the frame.
     
  7. Best thing to do is rework the crossmember.
    Second best is to heat and bend the hangers.
    Third best thing is to try some shims but the spring pocket in the crossmember might not let the spring ride at 3* without running on the sides and causing you all sorts of grief. Then again maybe it will.

    You could try a custom shackle.
    Since the bind is in the spring eye to hanger eye relationship. Make a shackle that's has the front half with a C/C holes closer than stock and the rear half C/C further than stock. This will eliminate most of the bind. allow your pinion to be 3* down to the rear and parallel with your 3* down to rear Trans.
     
  8. Clik
    Joined: Jul 1, 2009
    Posts: 1,841

    Clik
    Member

    Instead of having to mill, what if you took two plates and welded a spacer between them at one end and welded the seam at the other end. Sorta picture when you laid a log under a board to play Evil Knievel with your Huffy bicycle (unless you were one of the lucky kids that could afford a Stingray).
     
  9. Hotrodbuilderny
    Joined: Mar 20, 2009
    Posts: 1,646

    Hotrodbuilderny
    Member

    Any good spring shop should have wedge shims for that purpose.
     
  10. rogeroadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2007
    Posts: 146

    rogeroadster
    Member
    from Corona, CA

    This is the option I have been most seriously considering. I'm guessing that much heat will warp the housing but enough heat on the other side of the housing would probably pull it back somewhat true. Then again I am going to repair the worn bearing races by turning them down and sleeving them. If I do that after I heat the spring hangers maybe I can true it up then. But then maybe I should have done this right the first time.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2013
  11. rogeroadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2007
    Posts: 146

    rogeroadster
    Member
    from Corona, CA

    Now there's an idea I haven't thought of.

     
  12. rogeroadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2007
    Posts: 146

    rogeroadster
    Member
    from Corona, CA

    To elaborate on this idea, I could just have the spring shop rework the spring with 3 degrees of twist in the main leaf.
     
  13. rogeroadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2007
    Posts: 146

    rogeroadster
    Member
    from Corona, CA

    These are all good ideas. I really appreciate this brain storming session.
     
  14. On the 37 rear, if it has the factory hangers I doubt you'd get the axle housing hot enough to warp it. The hanger eye is pretty far away from the housing. Certainly not as hot or as much warpage from welding on the ladder bar brackets.
     
  15. rogeroadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2007
    Posts: 146

    rogeroadster
    Member
    from Corona, CA

    Well, that's another good idea because I was thinking about heating it near the housing and bend the entire hanger much like stretching a front axle. Here's a couple in-progress pictures of what I'm doing.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. designs that work
    Joined: Aug 29, 2005
    Posts: 411

    designs that work
    Member

    Not trying to be a smart a** , but you are still in the building stage. Would it be best to cut the kick up loose from the Model A frame and weld it at the angle you want? You could probably use a 4 1/2 inch grinder with a cut off wheel and just slice a mini wedge out and reweld it, put a plate for a gusset and be done.
     
  17. Hell If what's in those pics is the current state, that is exactly what I'd do.
    I somehow got the impression it was a lot further along than those pics.
     
  18. tiredford
    Joined: Apr 6, 2009
    Posts: 488

    tiredford
    Member
    from Mo.

    When Pete and Jakes builds a chassis, they set up the rear with 0 degrees. They say with the trans down 3 degrees they dont have problems.
     
  19. rogeroadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2007
    Posts: 146

    rogeroadster
    Member
    from Corona, CA

    You are right, it is probably the best decision. Its just a hard one to make. Here's a close view of the crossmember in the frame. These pictures were taken before I finished boxing the framer or added the center x member.
     

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  20. rogeroadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2007
    Posts: 146

    rogeroadster
    Member
    from Corona, CA

    I like this idea. Truth be known, for what little we drive these cars it probably doesn't matter. When I was 19 years old and built my first car I did not consider this aspect of engineering and that car ran for years before I sold it.
     
  21. There is probably enough slop in the shackle bolts to absorb the 3 degrees. For reference 3 degrees is 1/2 a minute on a clock face
     
  22. Even if you have ride height mocked up all will change when the car hits the road. It looks like nice work. Leave it as is and I bet it is close to perfect when everything settles!
     
  23. rogeroadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2007
    Posts: 146

    rogeroadster
    Member
    from Corona, CA

    I want to believe that you are correct and I will initially tack the ladder bars in place without modifying the spring hangers but will then most likely put 3 degrees of angle in the spring hangers.

    Here's a couple pictures as it sits right now.
     

    Attached Files:

  24. rogeroadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2007
    Posts: 146

    rogeroadster
    Member
    from Corona, CA

    Somehow I missed your post and you have a great idea. I want to keep the original Ford spring hangers but if I don't, this is a great way to do it.
     
  25. No pressure on those shackles, you are pissing in the wind. When it is at ride height you will be fine. Tacking things now is a great idea however.
     
  26. Hackerbilt
    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 6,243

    Hackerbilt
    Member

    Gee...wonder how the stock 37 joint holds up!?!?
    The torque tube makes that front joint the only bending point of the entire suspension.
    With P&J style ladder bars and the front bushings close to the trans output...won't the open drive front U joint have to survive in the same exact way as the original 37 joint???
    The rear joint will hardly see any angle change even with an open drive.

    I think you're overthinking it all. I would aim the pinion directly at the trans output and be done with it.

    I wonder how much angle change the rear joint will see with 6" of total suspension movement...all hingeing from the front of the ladder bars?
    Not much I'm willing to bet.
     
  27. rogeroadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2007
    Posts: 146

    rogeroadster
    Member
    from Corona, CA

    You are entirely correct even down to the point that I'm overthinking it . All I want to do is point the rear end yoke up 3 degrees without putting the spring shackles in a bind. I failed to simply angle the rear crossmember by 3 degrees when I welded it into the frame so now I looking for a work around.
     
  28. rogeroadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2007
    Posts: 146

    rogeroadster
    Member
    from Corona, CA

    The more I hear you guys talk the more I think I am over thinking this.
     

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