Register now to get rid of these ads!

Technical New to Flatheads.... Engine noise ? Normal?

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Eric Satterfield, Jan 7, 2020.

  1. Do you think this could have happened from the initial start up,,,,,from before you purchased the car ?
    From what I could see,,,,it looks good and clean inside .

    You know,,,they don’t look so bad to have such low oil pressure.
    I think you had better inspect your pump as well.
    Could there be a plug missing from inside the block somewhere,,,,,losing pressure ?

    Tommy
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  2. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 190

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    Not sure. This is the first Ford engine I’ve ever had apart. I didn’t realize the piston skirts had rings on them. I will post more pics tomorrow. This engine has been sitting for awhile. Rebuilt yes. True statement. Freshly rebuilt is bullshit.
     
  3. Yeah,,,they are a 4 ring piston,,,,,surprised me when I first saw them too.
    And some fresh rebuilds are not are good as others.
    You might also want to check to see if any thing had been looked over.
    Does it still have the stock fuel pump.

    Tommy
     
  4. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 15,183

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I've heard stories of flatheads running forever with 10 pounds of oil pressure. But mine with around 10,000 miles usually runs 50 pounds. I'd think a recently rebuilt engine should hold more than a couple dozen pounds. Mic all the bearings and make sure the machine work was done to specs. Maybe the tolerances were too loose and the knock was a rod, or worse yet a piston. A bearing with only 200 miles shouldn't be worn through to the copper.
     
    AHotRod and Desoto291Hemi like this.
  5. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 190

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    Electric pump. I was told the motor was a Merc. But I believe it to be a Ford. I measured one of the crank counter weights. And it was about 5.5”. There has been water/antifreeze sit in one cylinder at some point. As there is some discoloring and some slight etching. Does not appear to be recent. Perhaps a head gasket leaking at some point after it was parked or pulled from whatever this engine came from.
     
  6. Okay,,,when you pull the intake,,,look and see if the push rod hole was plugged offf properly.
    Also,,,,after you pull a head,,,just check the stroke really quick,,,it will be close enough to check.
    It’s a shame that someone will misrepresent the truth like this.

    Tommy
     
  7. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 190

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    Throws on crank and bore etch. Plug is present in oil drive passage. Oil pump is Ford M19.
     

    Attached Files:

    Desoto291Hemi likes this.
  8. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 190

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    Pistons. Sealed power. Date code ? 2002??
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
    Desoto291Hemi likes this.
  9. Good pics,
    Yeah,,,that is not a Merc crank.
    The journals don’t look bad,,,,but it has definitely been starving for oil.
    The nice witness marks where the bearings have rode show it,,,considering no more miles than it has on it.
    And you are right.,,,somewhat of a stain that bore your showing,,,maybe it didn’t hurt it.

    In the tappet chamber,,,,,where the fuel pump shaft was blocked off,,,,,,is that just a press in cup plug ?
    Os is that oil puddled up in the hole ?

    Tommy
     
  10. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 190

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    There is a press in plug in that galley hole...Not sure what to do next?..There is one actual machine shop in the area and they are great for turning rotors etc....I am def replacing the oil pump...I have read the debates on this subject...But would a high volume unit hurt my cause?....Here is the thing and not trying to sound like I am being cheap as I been in this hobby long enough to know it's not a cheap one to do properly....This car will probably be driven maybe 500-600 miles or less per year...I don't want to half a$$ it...But also don't want to spend a fortune on an engine in a driver grade fiberglass car either...I hope that makes sense
     
    Desoto291Hemi likes this.
  11. On the date code,,,,it depends on the manufacturer.
    I work for an auto supplier,,we supply components to all the big guys.
    Some customers want the Julian date,,,,some week code and year,,,,some just want a run code,,,,(letter and number ).

    Tommy
     
  12. Absolutely makes sense to me,,,,,don’t throw money at it .
    Now,,,,on the plug,,,,does it still have the bushing in place,,,,or is it just a cup plug driven into the hole ?
    This is important .

    Oh yeah,,,,before you throw away a perfectly good pump,,,I am pretty sure that is a new one.
    I suspect it is working just fine,,,I think you are bleeding off so much pressure,,it can’t keep up.

    Tommy
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
  13. Dyce
    Joined: Sep 12, 2006
    Posts: 1,861

    Dyce
    Member

    Check the cam bearings. One loose cam bearing can bleed off a lot of oil. You could put it all back together and plumb an oil primer up to it and see where oil is going.
     
  14. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 190

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    It looks to me that the plug is straight into the casting. Would the plug be driven into the center of a bushing if it were present? Plug looks staked at front. Another thing I thought was strange. When I removed the oil filter canister. There was no oil in the return line going back into the side of block just above the pan rail. When I removed the lid. Oil flowed out of the line. I thought of removing and plugging the filter ports when reassembled?? Oil filter is the dreaded Orange (Fram ) at least in these parts...Every since all the Hecks discount stores closed. Lee's aren't available..LOL
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
  15. Okay,,,so it sounds like the passage is open under that plug.
    The bushing should be in there and then the plug.
    Otherwise,,,the oil journal is completely exposed and allows most of the oil to go there instead.

    The oil should stay up in the filter,,,,as long as it’s sealed right.
    It acts just like you putting your finger over the top of a straw,,,and raising it from your glass,,,,the liquid will stay there as long as it has a vacuum against it.
    Otherwise,,,every time you shut down your engine it would drain out to the pan.

    Tommy
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
  16. I understand how this is your first Flathead,,,,mine too,,,,,but you have done a lot of other engines work.
    These are still the same,,,,just somewhat different.
    All the normal things apply here too.
    Oil flow is oil flow,,,,bearing clearance is bearing clearance.
    Don’t let it spook you,,,,there is no black magic in them.
    Once you study the layout,,and understand the oil system,,,it is fairly simple.

    Tommy
     
  17. No,,,,the original bushing would have to be removed to clean the oil passage.
    There is a would of funk that build up in there,,,trust me.
    So,,,the guy did right removing it to clean the block.
    He just didn’t know to replace it,,to preserve the oil pressure.
    Seems like my bushing mic,d about .595 o.d.,,,and is a fairly tight fit in the block.
    By all means,,,remove the plug and check that really good.
    I suspect that is your entire problem.

    Tommy
     
    RMR&C likes this.
  18. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 190

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    Appears bushing has been removed
     

    Attached Files:

  19. Onemansjunk
    Joined: Nov 30, 2008
    Posts: 156

    Onemansjunk
    Member
    from Modesto,CA

    427 sleeper and Eric Satterfield like this.
  20. BEB4C5E7-4DD9-4679-BB63-DB5D679F5EAD.jpeg Here in this pic I marked up it illustrates where the oil comes from.

    The green line shows the oil journal from the pump,,,,the narrow green is straight from the oil pump,,,,the wide green is the main oil galley to the rest of the engine.
    The red line is the crescent shape in the pic,,,it shows the galley that feeds the fuel pump rod.
    The blue line is the opening in the cam bearing that leads to the cam eccentric that drives the rod.

    Without this bushing in place,,,most of the oil that is supposed to go to the rest of the engine is diverted down that hole.
    That is why all the bearings at the other end were starving for oil.
    The rear most main and last two rod bearings are fed from the galley beside the oil pump...they get oil first,,technically. The rear main has its own dedicated oil galley.
    The rest get oil from the top galley straight from the pump.
    I believe this will fix your problem.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
  21. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 4,718

    sunbeam
    Member

    With no mechanical pump is the push rod still there? With out the spring pressure the rod might not be following the cam eccentric at that engine speed and actually floating at higher speeds.
     
  22. guy1unico
    Joined: Aug 30, 2006
    Posts: 838

    guy1unico
    Member

    Valvoline 20/50 racing oil ...use & drive
     
  23. You know,,,I wonder how many other engines have had this same problem and no one checked it,,,just kept running with 10-20 pounds of pressure.
    Maybe the engine was never revved high enough to cause a concern ?

    Tommy
     
    Eric Satterfield likes this.
  24. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 15,183

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    My flathead is a 59A, but the same thing could be done to yours: Since I currently had an electric pump but didn't know if I'd ever want to install a mechanical, I just put a short pump rod in the hole. I put a bugger of weld on the side of the rod so it wouldn't slide all the way down the bushing to contact the cam, and then cut the top off just under the top of the intake manifold. Should I ever want to install a mechanical pump I can just yank this rod out and install a new one.

    Also, check to see if your oil filter canister has a restricting port on the inward side. There needs to be a very small hole in one of the bushings or fittings to reduce the flow and keep pressure in the rest of the engine's system. Usually about 1/16" diameter. Check all the ends of those brass fittings on the side of the canister. If you don't have one that will reduce the flow, it's easy to solder one up and drill the correct hole.
     
    Desoto291Hemi and RMR&C like this.
  25. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 190

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    I thought it was strange that the return side (assume since it’s not coming out of the galley area) the one above pan rail. Had no oil when I disconnected it. But when I removed the canister lid. The oil flowed out of the line. Is this normal? Only time I’ve had this type of filter was on 45 Willy’s Jeep and never noticed or checked before.
     
  26. 19Fordy
    Joined: May 17, 2003
    Posts: 6,738

    19Fordy
    Member

  27. SEAAIRE354
    Joined: Sep 7, 2015
    Posts: 140

    SEAAIRE354
    Member

    It sure looks like you’ve found the problem but many years ago I had one were a performance reground cam was used and the journals were cut down .030 and was installed in a set of std size bearing. It had the same oil pressure symptoms that you were having but also had valve train noise due to the valve adjustment was all over the place with the cam bouncing around. Not sure if you are planning on taking it apart that much but maybe worth a look. I ended up locating oversized bearings and that took care of it.


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
    Desoto291Hemi likes this.
  28. Martino Bavaro
    Joined: Nov 2, 2014
    Posts: 8

    Martino Bavaro
    Member
    from Toronto

    Exactly.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  29. flatjack
    Joined: Feb 13, 2007
    Posts: 886

    flatjack
    Member

    The standard bushing for the pump pushrod has a .060 drilled in it. As said, without that bushing, you lose a ton of oil pressure. That cup plug would have needed to be long enough to extend down and cover the oil passage hole. The oil then bypasses around the plug to the engine through a cast enlargement around the bushing.
     
  30. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 190

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    Thank you all again for the help. I’m new to flathead Fords. Not to cars. I knew something wasn’t right. But I guess I wanted someone to say “Hey they all do that. “.
     
    town sedan likes this.

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2020 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.