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Projects New Project: 1953 Oldsmobile

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by EnragedHawk, Jul 13, 2016.

  1. EnragedHawk
    Joined: Jun 17, 2009
    Posts: 990

    EnragedHawk
    Member
    from Waco, TX

    Ok.... deep breath...

    So. Got the carb back and on. Good new is, car runs better than ever. Didn’t realize how much pickup I was missing out on. It definitely needed to be done.

    Bad news, still getting weird fuel pressure crap happening. I’ve been driving the car, and it hasn’t stalled out or dropped below 3 psi, so it’s an improvement, but it’s still making me nervous.

    I’m convinced I’m missing something between the tank and the pump. Here’s what the fuel filter looks like between pressure ups and downs:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Which by the way, you guys called it, that filter started leaking at the fittings. Already ditched it, but took advantage of being able to photo the pressure drop.

    While I don’t understand why this would work for 9 months then stop, I’m working on my 16th theory so far:

    Maybe I’m running too large a line and too much line from the tank to the pump. The pump acts like it can’t get enough fuel to it. I’ll see if I can post the video later of the filter so you can hear what the pump is doing when the level drops.

    There’s about 6/7 feet of 3/8” line from the tank to the pump, and about 4 feet run above the tank to avoid the rear suspension. The pump is as far back on the frame as I can get it, but I might be able to route the lines differently and shave off some distance.

    Thoughts?


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    chryslerfan55 likes this.
  2. MARKDTN
    Joined: Feb 16, 2016
    Posts: 60

    MARKDTN

    Have you checked the fuel sending unit lines? I had an OT Eldorado convertible that would idle fine but when you got on the gas it starved for fuel. Replaced a bunch of parts-pump, filter, built the carb.... Turned out that the line from fuel sock through the sending unit base was clogged.
     
  3. Couple things.....the fuel sock may be getting covered with debris cutting down the flow. Are you still using that red Holley pump? Have you tried running itin the yard with a clean gas can and that Holley pump? How long does it take for the psi to start to tumble....in the yard or always on the road. Also, a very small pin hole in a pickup line will cause all kinds of issues.
     
    chryslerfan55 likes this.
  4. Nice Olds! What is your setup for a radiator? I have the same basic setup in my 50 Olds Coupe, but I can’t keep it cool. Mine is basically completely stock engine.


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  5. EnragedHawk
    Joined: Jun 17, 2009
    Posts: 990

    EnragedHawk
    Member
    from Waco, TX

    The fuel sock is brand new because I didn’t have one before. Still using the Holley. I borrowed a new one from a friends and had the same issues.

    When I first started having issues, it would take about 30 minutes to start having problems. Fuel pressure would dive to 3 pounds and sometimes stall out. I’ve made a lot of changes over the last week and the problem is still there, but it’s changed.

    Now, fuel pressure will hold at 5.5 at idle with a minor bounce at the gauge. When I start driving, pressure will bounce between 4-6 psi. Hasn’t dropped below that yet. Doesn’t seem to matter what the engine temp is.

    I’m going to try and re route the fuel lines to the pump. It’s worked for 9 months, so I’m not sure why it would suddenly matter, but I’m getting desperate.


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  6. EnragedHawk
    Joined: Jun 17, 2009
    Posts: 990

    EnragedHawk
    Member
    from Waco, TX

    Thanks! I had to ditch my electric fan and shroud to keep mine cool. Went with a 20” fixed blade mechanical. Been working great.


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  7. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 5,318

    BJR
    Member

    Why are you not running the stock mechanical pump? If you posted this already I apologize.
     
  8. EnragedHawk
    Joined: Jun 17, 2009
    Posts: 990

    EnragedHawk
    Member
    from Waco, TX

    Ok, one more post for the day. Things aren’t perfect but they’re better. I didn’t change the line size, but I simplified the routing as much as possible and kept the line as low as possible. Unfortunately, that’s darn near impossible on my frame. Anyway, with that done, pressure builds much faster than before and is at least steadier. The needle wobbles between 5-6 pounds when driving and stays pretty much steady at 5.5 during idle.

    Not sure what changed between 9 months ago and 2 weeks ago. Hell if I know.

    I still think if I ran a slightly smaller line and managed to keep completely below the tank, everything would be gravy. I just see how it’s possible.


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    chryslerfan55 likes this.
  9. So are you running the mechanical fan with or without a shroud?
    Stock style downflow radiator?
    ...Thanks
     
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  10. EnragedHawk
    Joined: Jun 17, 2009
    Posts: 990

    EnragedHawk
    Member
    from Waco, TX

    I’m out of theories. Completely.

    Same. Freaking. Issue.



    Fuel pressure will take dive and car will die out. I can run the pump without the engine and it still can’t build pressure. From what I see, this says there’s nothing wrong with anything after the pump. I’m also convinced there’s nothing wrong with the pump, it simply can’t get fuel.

    Nothing changed before this problem came up.

    A pinhole in the pickup is the only thing I can think of. I’ll have to jerry rig something to check it. I still don’t understand how a pinhole could cause intermittent problems. Seems like it’s there or not.

    I’m also considering running the mechanical and the electric at the same time. But I switched to the electric because the mechanical was having he same problem 9 months ago. Maybe there’s something this time of year triggering the problem.

    Any reason I can’t run a mechanical and electric at the same time? I’ll drop the tank again this weekend and look at the pickup.





    I’m not running a shroud, just have the fan close to the radiator. Stock style radiator I believe.

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  11. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 5,318

    BJR
    Member

    Did you ever replace the fuel lines from the tank to the carb? If not you may have a pin hole somewhere that you can't see, like behind a frame clamp, or where it has been rubbing for years. The pickup tube could also be bad, or cracked where it exits the tank. I had an off topic car that had a sock on the end of the pickup tube that had turned to mush from gas additives that the previous owner was dumping into the gas tank. When I accelerated fast it would move and block the pickup tube and the car would die.
     
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  12. EnragedHawk
    Joined: Jun 17, 2009
    Posts: 990

    EnragedHawk
    Member
    from Waco, TX

    Lines are all new. I’ve dropped and cleaned the tank. I’ve got a new sock on it and all new filters. Pump has been cleaned up (even temporarily replaced with no improvement). I’ve tried bypassing the regulator and now the carb has been rebuilt.

    When I had it apart, the pickup looked ok, but it’s the only thing at this point that has not been replaced. The pump is definitely having trouble getting fuel to it.


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  13. EnragedHawk
    Joined: Jun 17, 2009
    Posts: 990

    EnragedHawk
    Member
    from Waco, TX

    I’m so lost. I swear I have checked EVERYTHING.

    Pickup tube is fine. A fitting had a slight leak, so I got all excited. Fixed the leak, slapped it back together. Same damn thing.

    Worst part is, every time I get home start messing with it, the idle pressure looks fine. I can’t get it to mess up at home consistently. I even tried causing my own leak before the pump to see if that would cause the issue. Nothing.

    This is no longer about the round up. I need my damn car back in action. I can’t keep borrowing cars to get from A to B. I can’t afford another car without selling this one.

    I like it when things break and I can just fix it. This diagnosing bullshit is wearing me out.


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  14. EnragedHawk
    Joined: Jun 17, 2009
    Posts: 990

    EnragedHawk
    Member
    from Waco, TX

    [​IMG]

    Got stickers for my buckles! Super pleased with them.


    Still getting strange fuel pressure dives every now and then. Driving the car anyway. I’ve gotten a couple of professional opinions on what’s up. All have ended with something song the lines of “WTF?”

    If anyone else cares to take a stab at an idea, I’m open to opinions.

    Here’s was has been checked and/or replaced:

    Fuel sock (new)
    Fuel sender (pressure checked at 60psi)
    Back to steel lines (thoroughly cleaned and pressure checked)
    Holley Red (brand new, excellent gravity feed)
    Holley Regulator (brand new)
    New fuel pressure gauge (just to be safe)
    Carburetor (rebuilt)
    HEI module (new)

    I also tried running the mechanical pump with the electric; no improvement.

    Also kept fuel lines as short at possible. May not work any better, but I think it looks good.
    [​IMG]


    Gonna leave for Austin Friday morning. I’ll let you know how it goes.


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  15. KandN Kustoms
    Joined: Dec 15, 2008
    Posts: 170

    KandN Kustoms
    Member

    Just an observation....
    But is that glass filter on backwards?
    Not sure if that would matter or not?
    Wish I could help more.

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  16. well, what the hell....you have tried everything else so why not try insulating that fuel line to protect it from the heat from the frame up to the carb in the engine bay. And, while I can't see the carb base in the pic, do you have an insulator between the carb and the manifold?
     
  17. Grabis
    Joined: Jun 3, 2015
    Posts: 108

    Grabis
    Member

    Hey, I’ve been following this thread (nice car) and spent a couple hours reading up on the red Holley. There seems to be quite a few people with this pressure loss issue. Other pumps as well, but plenty on this specific one.

    Just a couple of ideas since you’ve done everything else.

    Would you be able to use a bypass type regulator? Some people reported that the external pressure regulator fought the pump flow and was enough to cause heat within the pump. Apparently, these are very sensitive to any heat and would vapor lock or cavitate easily causing the loss of pressure after running a bit. The bypass type regulator solved this issue for some of these people.

    Have you increased the wire size from 18 gage to 10 or 12?

    Lastly, is this pump new from the first time you started having the issue or a new Holley red pump recently?

    Here is a snippet I found that maybe you have already come across. The original poster here stated that the diagnosis was spot on.

    “Your problem - is that you have really overheated the motor at some point. This usually expands the stator and the windings, which permanently reduces the clearance between the stator and rotor. Once the motor starts to heat up to normal operating temperature, the rotor starts dragging on the stator - which causes more heat, which reduces the clearance more, which causes more heat, etc. - until the motor stops and starts to melt down.

    Once you have damaged the motor by doing this, the only thing that will solve the problem is to replace the motor or re-wind it. It is usually cheaper to replace it.”

    Sorry if this has already been covered. I’ve read from start to finish but recently I only went back a few pages. What’s really bugging me is that you bypassed the regulator AND ran the pump off of a gas can and had the same issue. This really points to the pump or it’s electrical connection in my simple mind. The fact that you tried a buddies pump really makes it a mystery. Was your buddies pump ran into the same downstream connections?

    Best of luck Man!!! Again, nice car


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    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
  18. EnragedHawk
    Joined: Jun 17, 2009
    Posts: 990

    EnragedHawk
    Member
    from Waco, TX

    I ditched the glass filter already. The plastic fittings were garbage. And hey, I appreciate all the help I can get!


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  19. EnragedHawk
    Joined: Jun 17, 2009
    Posts: 990

    EnragedHawk
    Member
    from Waco, TX

    I tried it once before (a year ago when running mechanical) and it didn’t help much. Wouldn’t hurt to try again. The lines are just now running under then engine again though. Before they were completely clear of the engine, just looked sloppy.

    Not sure if an insulator and super thick gasket are the same thing or not. I’m using the gasket that came with the carb rebuild kit.

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  20. EnragedHawk
    Joined: Jun 17, 2009
    Posts: 990

    EnragedHawk
    Member
    from Waco, TX

    The pump and regulator are brand new as of 2 days ago. I’ve voltage checked at the pump when it’s taking dives, and it reads constant. Bumping up to a thicker gauge wouldn’t hurt though. I’ll have to read up on that bypass style regulator.


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  21. EnragedHawk
    Joined: Jun 17, 2009
    Posts: 990

    EnragedHawk
    Member
    from Waco, TX

    Ok ok ok... something just crossed my mind. What if my relay has halfway burned up? The resistance and the amperage are battling it out and keeping a constant voltage. It would take heat from the engine bay to set it off... I’ve always assumed relays were either good or bad. Maybe not?


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  22. Grabis
    Joined: Jun 3, 2015
    Posts: 108

    Grabis
    Member

    One other note, maybe not best practice but I believe you can run the return line of a bypass type regulator to the filler neck so that you don’t have to monkey with new holes/fittings on your gas tank.

    What ever it is, hope to read the “fixed it” post soon.


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  23. EnragedHawk
    Joined: Jun 17, 2009
    Posts: 990

    EnragedHawk
    Member
    from Waco, TX

    Yeah, I tried something similar a long while back, didn’t work so well for me. I’ve actually still got the parts for it.

    My wife keeps telling me to go get an EFI kit. It’s tempting. Till now I’ve enjoyed DDing a carbed car. Not that it matters. I can’t justify that kind of money right now.


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  24. good point on the overheating pump and the bypass regulator. The return line can be much smaller as a rule, say 1/4 inch as just the overflow will be returning to the tank. This will allow the pump to run freely.
    I did not see that you had installed 18 ga. wire from the relay to the pump but I would highly recommend changing that to a 16 or better yet a 14 wire. A smaller wire cannot carry the amperage that may be needed in certain conditions and may add to the overheating issue of the pump.
    CarbKool up in PA (I believe) sell space age insulators to keep the carb isolated from the engine heat. They do make a big difference and are worth the money IMHO. I run them on all of my builds to help with percolation issues.
     
  25. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 5,318

    BJR
    Member

    If that were my car, I would get rid of the electric pump and regulator, and put a new, stock, mechanical pump on it. The engine ran just fine from the factory with a mechanical pump so why add more stuff to go wrong? Just make sure you get a NEW pump and not a new old stock one that may not be compliant with the crap corn gas we now have.
     
  26. EnragedHawk
    Joined: Jun 17, 2009
    Posts: 990

    EnragedHawk
    Member
    from Waco, TX

    Holy crap, we made it! And without a hitch. So far... Pressure held fairly constant. Didn’t dip below 5 pounds. I’ll let you know if we make it back.

    [​IMG]


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  27. EnragedHawk
    Joined: Jun 17, 2009
    Posts: 990

    EnragedHawk
    Member
    from Waco, TX

    I was supposed to take the day off today and rest... I couldn’t sit still, so I started working on the car again.


    First thing I did was move the electric wiper control to the factory location. With the knob on it, you can’t even tell. Should have done this a long time ago.
    [​IMG]

    Also decided to ditch the center console. It was über ugly. The glove box broke apart a while back, so I moved all my stereo and accessory crap there. I think it looks pretty good.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    And finally moved the speakers to the kick panels. The panels were shot, so I made new panels and covered them with the old carpet so it would match.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Anyway, it’s not much of an update, but it’s better than trying to diagnose another problem.


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  28. EnragedHawk
    Joined: Jun 17, 2009
    Posts: 990

    EnragedHawk
    Member
    from Waco, TX

    Just posting since nothing is currently wrong. :D

    [​IMG]


    Anyway, while nothing is broken, I’m working on my future parts list. What else should go on here?

    New Porta-Walls (sorry guys, tires are still too good)
    Rear pinion and pumpkin seals
    Rear main seal
    Rear Spring Bushings
    Door and window seals
    AC (hey, a guy can dream)


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  29. Gotgas
    Joined: Jul 22, 2004
    Posts: 6,638

    Gotgas
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from DFW USA

    Sounds like things are working well!

    If you continue to have weird fuel pressure problems, I'd first suspect a blockage in the tank. Picture a big flake of rust that gets sucked up against the sock when the car is running, then falls back to the bottom when the engine shuts off. I'd also give a close look at the fuel line you ran, and make sure there aren't any crimped areas. And finally, anywhere you have Teflon tape on fuel fittings, take them apart and make sure there isn't a flap of teflon blocking the fitting. Good luck!
     
    EnragedHawk likes this.
  30. Sure wish I had that nice of a bumper/grill. Someday I'll float a loan and get mine re-chromed
     

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