i grew up always hearing that a new cam needs new lifters. i questioned it, but never really got an answer i was 100% satisfied with... so i ask the all mighty collective knowledge of the HAMB... same goes for re-using a cam... "make sure you got the lifters in the right order"... but why? i surely understand that a particular lifter and particular cam lobe will kinda wear together... but fail to understand why the lifter can't be cleaned up and used on any lobe (which is what i've done countless times without issue ... run the lifter on fine emery cloth on a piece of granite, so it looks all purdy and toss 'er in.) any new cam i've used, i put in new lifters... err on the side of caution, to what might just be an old wive's tale... but it's also kinda cheap insurance, i suppose. so what say you?
Lifters spin on the cam lobes. Each lifter wears to each lobe. Most of wear occurs in the first 20 minutes of running. It sets a pattern just as a ring and pinion does. If you install lifters on wrong lobes they will try to set a wear pattern again and will usually fail. I was told on roller lifters it dont matter and have done this and not had a problem.
way back, they used to tell ya to go get used ones from the wreckin yard. wen money was tight--er. only they called them 'seasoned' lifters! and usually it was a reground cam.
When working with mechanical things during a rebuild, you can either refurbish or replace. Time is money, and it's easier to just replace with new. There's no reason you can't refurbish (zero out) things, if your time is free, or you don't have any money. It's a sign of the shade-tree mechanic to gather parts at the junk yard and then build a working engine from all the old parts. It's a lifestyle choice. For whatever it's worth, the people who enjoy this type of engine building seem to never have any teeth, and are perpetually covered in grime, and never use the indoor plumbing.
You can reuse old lifters on a new cam, but they need to be resurfaced on their base. Just lapping them against a flat surface can be OK if they are barely 'run in', but they are meant to have a slight dome on their base to make them rotate - you need the right machine (or some clever backyard adaptation) to grind the correct dome back onto them. Most cam grinders should have the equipment to do this (we do), since for a lot of older, rarer stuff, new cams and lifters just can't be bought. You just have to make sure that if the lifters have hardened bases, the refacing hasn't ground through it to softer metal underneath, or the lifters won't last long once they go back in! The other half of the equation responsible for making the lifters rotate is the taper ground into the cam lobes - they are ground with the grinding wheel at a slight angle to the centreline of the cam so one side of the lobe is slightly bigger/higher than the other. This makes the 'thrust' of the lobe against the lifter cause it to rotate, since the contact patch on the lifter base is off centre.
This one where you should just simply say 'why not?' For the cost of the lifters, I think it's crazy not to swap them out while you're in there. I know I'm planning on it. 'Course, my lifter have about 88K miles on them. So the old lifters are oh-so gone when the new cam gets installed. Hey, where's squirrel on this one?
Running used lifters on a new cam is like using a second hand rubber when ya bang your 'ole lady or girlfriend ! It ain't gonna work long....
Here are a couple of threads for you to look at: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=235262&highlight=used+lifters http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=247606&highlight=used+lifters As mentioned, there are a lot of factors that determine whether a lifter will survive on a different cam lobe. When people get away with doing this, it almost invariably is in a stock or nearly stock engine with OEM or weak valve spring pressure....and generally they are trying to do things on the cheap, for a car they don't care that much about, and don't concern themselves with longevity. When a cam lobe and/or flat-tappet goes, it generally damages most everything else inside the crankcase. When you use emery cloth on the bottom of the lifter just to clean things up, you are probably not exerting enough pressure to remove the radius mentioned by MorganGT (typically about 30", but it varies), and so it has as much chance as any used lifter to survive. I hesitate to mention this, but you can refinish a lifter & achieve reasonable results at home by using solvent-wetted wet-or-dry sandpaper, a flat surface like a glass pane, or better yet a surface plate, and moving the lifter in a figure-eight motion. Every few seconds, stop, rotate the lifter 90 degrees, & start the figure-eight motion again. This retains the radius. Slow but effective if you do this right. I do this on new lifters as the finish tends to be too aggressive on most of them...it's easier to do it with a lathe, if you have access to one...just "dust off" the lifter with the wetted paper. Some builders do this, some don't... I also disassemble used hydraulics & clean them, if the job requires reusing them. Don't mix up the internals with each other...they are tolerance-matched from the factory..or should be... As others have said, I question the purpose of reusing lifters on any common engine, for the most part.
allright... some damn fine answers. i never knew about a cam's lobe having a slight angle. learn something new every day. the reason for the question wasn't because i'm trying to be cheap and build a junker... more just curiosity about a question i've never (until now) heard a solid answer about. thanks to the power of the HAMB, i know a bit more now
If you look at a flat tappet cam that just has a little run time on it, you can pretty easily tell which edge of the cam lobes are higher. This is one of the reasons you can't use roller lifters on a flat-tapped cam, and vise-versa. A roller cam does not have this slope on the lobes.....
Well, cheap isn't always bad. There are some valid reasons to do this. Being a Y-block guy, I will say that lifters are a big PITA...new ones are very expensive, not locally available without ordering them, and usually made in China. Most of them (new ones) will not pass a hardness test. So, you can buy NOS ones (there are issues there too), or you can buy new ones from Mummert for $219 that are "approved" by him (meaning that he took the time to find a GOOD source and actually tests the lifters to ensure quality)...or you can refinish old ones. For a SBC, it's new, every time...good lifters aren't that expensive. Bottom line is that there are pros & cons to almost every engine-building decision...if a guy has home-refinished lifters for years without a problem, then he's obviously doing something right. I've known professionals to use the method I described above when doing dyno thrashes involving cam testing...using the same lifters on multiple cams without issues for days. I also have known "bomber" class circle track guys to do this as well, given that expenses must be kept to a minimum. Backyard builds, however...it's a crapshoot.
Maybe I'm misreading what you said...but the bottoms are ground with a radius. For example, if you take two new flat-tappet lifters & put them "foot to foot", they will rock very slightly, because they are highest in the center...a damaged, cupped lifter will stop rotating.
Hopefully one that was just used as a protector and not a recepticle. That would simply be ridiculous.
'WAY BACK' as above are the key words. You can read the in "OLD TIME" articles this practice is mentioned. It must have been a lot more expensive an/or accepted practice back then. Nowadays the lifters are automatically used with a new cam. Just for an insight to the past.
oops! hit submit instead of preview ggg sorry Nowadays the lifters are automatically used with a 'NEW'. cam. Just for an insight to the past.[/quote]
What type of lifters would you recommend? I have used a lot of "sealed power" lifters in Holden engines ( same lifter as Chev) and they ALWAYS rattle on start up. The old ones don't
Funny thing is there are only 2-3 companies that make lifters, so your Sealed Power ones may have been made in the same place as the ones from say Comp Cams. As far as lifters having a radius on the base not all do. If the cam lobe is offset in the lifter bore the lifter will usualy have a flat base. The whole idea behind a radius base or tapered lobe is to have the lifter rotate so wear is not in one spot only. My new regrind cam from Delta Cams box says new OR resurfaced lifters. The cam lobe is offset in my 181 Chevy 4. My Sioux valve refacer is setup to resurface lifter bases also. But for Chevy engines new lifters are so cheap new is the only way, I can buy them by the rebuilder tray [Sealed power} 128 lifters for less than $1.70 each. $2.93 each for the 8 for the 181.
We resurface lifters with a Repco Tappet Facer (lifter is rotated in a lathe-style chuck against a special cup-shaped grinding wheel), and afterwards hand-finish each lifter base using the exact method described above.
Guys prices on new flat tappet (lifters) sets today is inexpensive compared to roller sets. 1. NEVER run a lifter that has been ground flat!!!!!!!!! The proper quick test is to place the bottoms together of two lifters and see if they rock. Then also check each one of those against another known lifter to see if they both rock. The bottoms of the FLAT lifters are NOT flat! They have a 2degree radius on the bottom. This allows them to spin in the lifter bore. 2. Next, Using a gram scale (postage meter) weigh your lifters!!!!!!!!!!!! Do not mix in lifters with a different weight. 3. Do not mix hydraulic lifters that may be HD or have different interior designs!!!!!!! Like piddle hyd. I used only sets that I knew their history on!!! Next if they passed the tests above: 4. I would disassemble each lifter separately and clean it. I used lacquer thinner. Be careful to hold it over a big pan or where any parts that would bounce or fly off. If you do loose a piece (and I have) make sure you have another same lifter to use as a part. Clips are usually where this happens. Sometimes the little ball inside the lifter one way valve did this. I lube the parts inside the lifter w/ oil when reassembling it. All 16 must match, weigh the same, rock, and be oiled!!!! We use to use STP to coat the lifters but found that that actually kept them from breaking in! Then we used the white lithium grease. Worked much better. DO NOT USE it on the sides of the lifter! Use oil! I usually soak them in a small can of oil depressing the top plunger 4 or 5 times to bleed off all of the air inside the lifter before placing them into the engine.. Next came EPT Molly grease which usually came from the cam mfgrs. Black in color. Again use it on only the contact surfaces with the camshaft. 5. Using springs that weigh the same and make sure to check the pressures in a spring tester or you can use a bathroom scale and a drill press to put pressure on the spring. Use a stop to make the compressed height all the same. A caliper works but it is not solid enough to stop the quill or downward pressure on the spring. I use to use a set of good springs as my break in springs that I put in a container afterwards. 6. set all of the rockers one at a time. Roll the engine over and bring each pushrod to the top where it starts to drop. Place a piece of tape on the harmonic balancer! Roll it over one turn and stop! Set the lifter to zero lash. This will start the engine. If your lifters were to have a cushion turn I would then give them a quarter turn more on the rocker arm stud. If it did not miss then you could go another round. Usually one turn was all I could get. Even though the old manuals would say 1-1/2 turns down. The engines usually ran bes for me at either 0 lash or 1/4 turn down though. NOTE THIS is a HELL of a lot of WORK!!!!!!! Not all of the old camshafts are the SAME hardnesses either!!! We use to say that the old Duntov cams were not as hard as some of the General Motors hypos. I ran my USED set ups for a few weeks breaking them in on nondetergent oil. Then change the springs to what I thought I needed. Balanced set. And the oil to 10W or 30W detergent. I hope this is NOT too much info or too long to be read!!!!!! It is really best to use the whole set up from the manufacturer new cam, lifters, springs, retainers, and even the timing set if applicable. Safer, hardnesses are all matched etc. Not everyone has the time, experience, or tools to do this job. It is NOT as simple as just throw some old lifters in it and keep going. Failure to do all of this will probably cause a catastrophic breakdown spraying the inside of the engine with hardened microscopic particles of either cam lobe or lifter bottoms. Tearing down that engine you will discover those particles embedded in your main and rod bearings and scratched surfaces on the crankshaft bearing surfaces leading to another trip to the crank grinder and then rebalancing shop!!! I KNOW JIM (Too Darned LONG!!!!!!) Welcome to my class! Some people LIKE a little more explanation. I only did this because I asked about roller cam info as I know very little about the Big Boys cams. The normal everyday driving GM TPI and LT1 engines I know a little. Enough to get by! I TOLD of my use of old flat tappet cam and lifter reusage. I just wanted to clear this up. I did NOT want to lead anyone astray nor seem like an old bragger.
Me again (OH NO!) I forgot to mention using an old modified distributer shaft and a drill motor spin the oil pump until you SEE oil coming from EVERY push rod top. Sometimes I had to bump the starter over to change the position in the rocker arm oil hole in order for the oil to escape! This IS a very important step! Some have mentioned abrading the bottom of the lifter. Use only like a 600 grid waterproof sand paper to scuff the surface but only while in the tear down stage of each lifter. Using only your fingers in a rotory spinning action. Do NOT get it around of the internal parts!!!!! DO NOT sand them on a FLAT surface!!! MAKE SURE that they all rock a lot afterwards!!!
Mad Max Hello, I am 70! Still have most all of my teeth! (some are root canaled and crowned). I have indoor plumbin AND urinals in both my house and shops (short hose!). Just got back from last weekends auction in Tulsa at the Stock Car Nats. where I bought a bunch of used ISKY springs (2 sets), a couple of Bullet Rollers (really nice condition), a Crower Rev kit new and in an unopened box. Also a set of Crower 180 offset roller rockers (one side only). So NOW I am having to learn NEW things and oh yeah its all used equipment!!!!! Found a lot of guys selling this stuff on the net were also there bidding.
A few years back, there was a HAMBER who showed us in photos and narrative how to resurface lifters, but I don't remember who it was, and the thread no longer comes up with a search. Anyone know who I'm talking about, or remember the thread? A glass plate, some very fine wet and dry sandpaper, and I believe kerosene were used, and the lifters were refinished in a figure 8 movement pattern. It might be worth a reread. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.
Autoworldcorp2000 had the best explanation. I couldn't have put it any better. Like has been said, it doesn't make any difference on roller lifters, as they don't turn in the lifter bore
Thank you Oldsman and Butch. Again I am not the smartest person on the block. I MUST take in from MANY people who have dun it!!! A set of perfect lifter bottoms can be done the way Homespun91 said. Just don't stay long in one spot (no flattening) of the lifter bottoms! Use FINE (600 -1500) wet or dry sandpaper and do not stay on them. The paper must be wet and never touch the sides of the lifter nor handle the lifter with dirty hands when doing this. Just scuff where the lifter rides on the cam. You'll still need a set of good stock springs that are single wound and matched to run for the first 500 miles or so. Then a spring or head change out to the ones you want to run. That 500 mile break in period is also old hat started by the manufacturers back in the day! It is unnecessary today with a new engine from the factory. Also certain engine rebuilders have it done with the delivery of a new engine. I remember once Don G. started loosing an engine at a competition. He phoned to (I think) Ed Pink for another replacement. It was flown in to the airport and had to be uncrated there and the engine in question placed in that same crate to be returned. Then we left with the new engine and installed it into Don's car. It went like gangbusters from the get go. A lot of the fellas of today are able to be in that type of a situation. They do not understand that some of us fellas have no other choices and we all want to get out there in OUR cars too. Just be careful using the old stuff. Extra careful! Do you QC on all parts prior to using them. STILL....Don't be silly. Sometimes a few more dollars or a set of NEW lifters (NOT from China) is the way to go. Old cams need to be watched carefully. I have a few old flathead cams I have came by and am nervous about running as these were ran in the 50's or early 60's. Hardness issues is what concerns me here as these were all regrinds done by Racer Brown or another of the early regrinders advertising in the day. When these were reground were they rehardened? Hardness is only a few thousands deep! NEW hard lifters COULD wear on those lobes! What to do with these old cams that I paid $75.00 and $100.00 for at the major swapmeets? Years ago. And kept them in an oiled wrapper and stored in a dry place all of these years???????????????
My .02. I think it's more critical now to run new lifters with the metals they are using now to make engine components than say 50yrs. ago. That said, how do you explain guys that install all new components, do the break in and still round off a lobe (that's assuming they used good quality parts). I recall stories my dad told me about the camshaft problems with Fords yblock when it first came out. When one came in Ford said to replace the camshaft and only the lifters on the worn lobes. Later on they said replace all the lifters. I wonder if that's where the practice started. Finally, how many of us back in the early 60's thought about replacing lifters on our 200$ specials when we replaced the camshaft? Here we saved up for a couple months to buy that 3/4 race cam (that will set some hair on fire) then might have to save a few more weeks to buy lifters. Not any I can remember. Of all the cam swaps I did in buddies driveways I cant remember any of them wiping out a lobe. All the new parts available and all the machine work you can get done to your engines now is just fantastic. Problem is I couldn't afford it then and I can't afford it now, now that I'm retired. I only had a small window of time where I could do all that's deemed necessary to build something.
Somewhere I should still have a copy of Racer Brown's red cam handbook/catalog. It was wide and not very tall. Maybe from the 70s? It came with a couple of the "arrow" decals. In it he talked about testing lifters for "crown" by putting 2 lifter faces together. It was key that they should "rock" as others said. I think he said they were fine for re-use, but don't recall for sure if that was on any lobe, even new lobes or not. The oil was different in those days for sure.
The Jalopy Journal
