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Technical New fuels

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by trikejunkie, Oct 15, 2021.

  1. trikejunkie
    Joined: Dec 2, 2011
    Posts: 97

    trikejunkie
    Member
    from Scotland

    How do you all manage with E10 fuel ? Here in the UK we have just changed over to it for "general consumption" E5 only being available in a very few places(very expensive too £1.59.9 A LITRE !)My 327 does not like E10 at all ,even with octane booster -do you put more/less advance in the timing ? I would love to hear how you cope in USA.
     
  2. Elcohaulic
    Joined: Dec 27, 2017
    Posts: 2,449

    Elcohaulic
    Member

    I have no issue with it.. But I keep my compression at 9 or lower. That way I can run a nice timing curve and not have starting issues. Octane booster is a waste of money. You would be better off finding a way to lower compression. With the lower compression you will actually go much faster with the modern fuels...
    The next thing you'll want to do is get lots of cubes. I have a 1978 truck 454 that runs 20 degrees initial advance and its a monster on the street. I have a TH-400 with a 2.73 rear end and its a brute on the street and can cruise down the interstate all day at 100 with ease..
    When you have lower compression, make sure you run 87 octane and not premium. The lower octane has more fire power and will get that low compression engine screaming..

    After finding out the truth about low compression and low octane gas,I am so sorry I spent all that money back then on 11:1 compression street engines and Sunoco 270.

    1) Cubic inches
    2) 9:1 compression max.
    3) Get a nice single points distributor with a CD box so you can make timing adjustments easily..
    4) Don't throw your money away on octane boosters and special ignition parts that promise you the impossible..
     
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  3. TA DAD
    Joined: Mar 2, 2014
    Posts: 493

    TA DAD
    Member
    from NC

    This will be interesting !
     
    Driver50x likes this.
  4. I BELIEVE ethanol increases the octane. Having said that, my straight eight engine performs fine on E10. 9.5/1 compression. 87 octane.

    Ben
     
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  5. 302GMC
    Joined: Dec 15, 2005
    Posts: 6,964

    302GMC
    Member
    from Idaho

    Don't let the engine sit idle for any length of time ...
     
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  6. Model A Gomez
    Joined: Aug 26, 2006
    Posts: 1,492

    Model A Gomez
    Member

    I've had problems with rubber parts in the fuel system such as the diaphragm in the fuel pump, after replacing a couple of fuel pumps I switched to unleaded premium with no ethanol. Is more expensive but seems to eliminate the problems in my older cars.
     
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  7. I hate ethanol fuels in anything with a carburetor. Ethanol has less energy in it. With that your engine will start to run leaner and you may need to richen it up or pull some timing. An old c10 I had would ping on the highway with 93 octane e10 at 14 degrees of initial timing. With 89 octane ethanol free no pinging at up to 16 degrees of initial. Fuel injected cars change the fuel trims to compensate all of this automatically.

    Also be careful of rubber lines and don't let the fuel sit for more than a month without some sort of stabilizer
     
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  8. Bandit Billy
    Joined: Sep 16, 2014
    Posts: 7,949

    Bandit Billy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The number of clear premium (no ethanol) locally is on the rise. Seems there is one on nearly every corner all of a sudden including a new one 300 yards from my sub division. Corn is for making everclear.
     
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  9. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 49,793

    squirrel
    Member

    Yeah, but that just lets them use a lower grade gasoline to mix with ethanol, to get the desired final octane rating.

    I haven't had any significant issues that I can blame on E10, aside from letting things sit too long, then it can cause problems. But I live where it's dry...in more cool/humid climates, you'll have to deal with the ethanol absorbing water out of the atmosphere. Fuel systems on newer cars are sealed up, not vented, so old cars have problems when left sitting for months at a time not being driven.
     
  10. jimmy six
    Joined: Mar 21, 2006
    Posts: 9,971

    jimmy six
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Replace flexible hoses with ethanol compatible line. Minimize its use by using steel fuel lines if you can. I have one 6”line. I have used an additive (1 oz per refill) for 10 years and have never had a problem. My carbs have ethanol friendly accelerator pumps.
    I believe your engine will run hotter especially during idling. Fuel is the only difference in my 56 from 56 and they never over heated then as our family owned them. Good luck.
     
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  11. Tman
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 34,912

    Tman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    We have had it here in the Midwest for 35 years. Not really an issue at all.

    Ran it in my 54 Chevy, the Rocky 33 with a flathead and my W motored T.

    I notice more from the different additive packages the various companies add than the alky. We ran some tests with my daily hooked up to the computer. The engine liked EXXON/Mobil fuel the best. I ran a fleet of fuel haulers at the time and had access to the specs on fuels pulled from our local pipeline.
     
  12. G-son
    Joined: Dec 19, 2012
    Posts: 822

    G-son
    Member
    from Sweden

    As it is the fuel that has changed, I'd go for adjusting the carb first. Adding alcohol usually makes engines run leaner, so rejetting to give it more fuel may be required.
     
    Driver50x likes this.
  13. @squirrel down here in sw Florida our fuels absorb water in about 3-4 weeks with all of our humidity. I've had cars that won't even start on that crap after sitting for 4 or 5 months
     
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  14. My 327/375 HP (Rochester FI) SBC will not run more than 20 minutes on 93 octane E-10. It starts to percolate in the fuel line and bowl. I now use 100LL avgas or 110 octane race gas exclusively.....timing at 16 degrees initial, 37 degrees all in by 2400 RPM. My Honda house generator will not run more than 3 minutes on E-10 that is more than 3 days old......absorbs too much water by then.....I now use non-ethanal 90 octane exclusively in it.
     
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  15. carbking
    Joined: Dec 20, 2008
    Posts: 3,154

    carbking
    Member

    With larger engines (cars, trucks) no issues; HOWEVER:

    All non-ethanol-friendly hoses are replaced, and then I recalibrate the carburetors (low compression 10~12 percent richer, high compression 6~8 percent richer) and use ONLY leather accelerator pumps. I also do not allow the engines to be left unstarted for long periods of time (water absorbed by the ethanol). Also play with timing, often a couple of degrees advance will help.

    With small engines, MANY issues. I have tried every ethanol stablizer known to man (I think), ALL with negligible benefits, if any. :mad: Well, they do serve as a "transfer of accounts" item. They transfer funds from my account to that of the vendor! :p

    Bought a new wheeled-trimmer, and the owners manual stated failure to use a certain brand of stabilizer would void the warranty. Used it according to instructions, and the next spring, the engine would run on ether, but not on gasoline. The carb was plugged worse with the stabilizer than without!!!!!:mad: And the )(*&^%$#@ carb rebuild at the factory dealer was NOT covered under warranty!!!!!:mad:

    So far the best way I have found for the weedeater to start the following spring is to run it at idle until it runs out of fuel, then add a bit of non-ethanol fuel, and again run it until it runs out. Temporarily plug the bowl vent and let it sit over the winter with a dry tank.

    But even the fuel-injected John Deere L & G will not run well in direct sunlight if the ambient is 85 degrees F. or above. Not really a bad thing "honey, its too hot for the mower (s) ;) , I am coming in". This one water-cooled, and air-cooled small engines are worse.

    Don't figure the government will ever be smart enough to get rid of the ethanol, so just adapt as best I can.

    My experience, high compression engines adapt much better than low compression engines. Boosted engines are the most difficult to get right on the street (with carburetors).

    Jon
     
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  16. Elcohaulic
    Joined: Dec 27, 2017
    Posts: 2,449

    Elcohaulic
    Member

    This is right on the mark..
     
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  17. nosford
    Joined: Feb 7, 2011
    Posts: 550

    nosford
    Member

    Our local volunteer Fire Department showed me a document they received a couple years ago that stated "all mission critical equipment equipped with small gas engines should only be fueled with non-ethanol fuel". Cutting saws, water pumps, gas engine hydraulic pumps ESPECIALLY if equipped with 2 cycle engines. Many problems with damage from water intrusion into the fuel and not starting/running reliably as these all have non sealed fuel systems. As someone suggested, run the fuel bowl empty if possible and add fresh fuel to start was recommended. My son parked his old pickup with the fuel tank behind the seat for a couple years with E10 in it and that was the worst rusted tank I have ever seen in my 50+ years of working on cars. Most new cars have plastic composite tanks and stainless or plastic fuel lines as well as sealed fuel systems.
     
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  18. BamaMav
    Joined: Jun 19, 2011
    Posts: 5,092

    BamaMav
    Member
    from Berry, AL

    My two farm tractors, IH and Ford, won't run if I leave e fuel sitting in them over a week. If I run them nearly dry and refill with pure gas, I don't have as many problems. Easier for me to just use pure gas all the time in everything with a carb. Cost here is the same as mid grade e gas, so in the long run it saves money and time.
     
  19. Tman
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 34,912

    Tman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The one other thing I noticed, most of us are OVERCARBED anyway. It is the nature of the hot rodder. Because of this as @carbking said, our larger engines are not affected as much. As noted, I have ran 3 hot rods in recent years with no ill effects.

    I also have several years experimenting with blends as high as E85, thats 85% ethanol in a flex fuel vehicle. It really is some interesting stuff. LOTS of racers switching to it for many reasons. I have a local friend with an OT screamer that is puttting out WAAAY over 1500 horspower in a street driven car on E85. He is close to dipping into the 7's in the 1/4.
     
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  20. AHotRod
    Joined: Jul 27, 2001
    Posts: 11,542

    AHotRod
    Member

    Here in the tropical climate of Florida, todays gas will evaporate out of the carburetor in 2-3 days. I have found that I had to modify my carburetors in the idle circuits and main jet circuits to obtain decent drivability and performance.

    As to small engines, I have been running the carbs dry after each use for 20+ years, and only keep less than 2 gallons of gas on hand in order to be able to use up the fuel before it gets to old.
     
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  21. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 18,668

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    No issues here. What is not metal tube is rubber hose that will tolerate it.

    If tuning with an O2 sensor, index on 14.2 instead of 14.7, adjust other numbers accordingly.

    A few folks that I know have pulled out their float bowl vents and tapped the holes for fittings. They are experimenting with small one-way valves that don't allow vapor out. No idea yet of results.
     
  22. carbking
    Joined: Dec 20, 2008
    Posts: 3,154

    carbking
    Member

    Gimpy - I would be very interested in the results. Just at first blush, it would seem this would exasperate leakage of fuel beside the throttle shafts once the engine were shut down, and might create stalling issues in hot city driving.

    But actual test results would be very welcome!

    Jon.
     
  23. spanners
    Joined: Feb 24, 2009
    Posts: 1,302

    spanners
    Member

    In my 70 year old Fergie petrol tractors I put a squirt of diesel in with the E10. A generous squirt at that and so far they fire up even if parked for a few months. Compression is fairly low on these old bangers.
     
  24. blowby
    Joined: Dec 27, 2012
    Posts: 7,951

    blowby
    Member
    from Nicasio Ca

    I tried putting a vacuum cap over the vent tube on my Q-jet after parking it, a couple of times. Same result as before, dry float bowl a week later. Maybe it can vent somewhere else, I don't know that carb well, but I did pull it off and check the well plugs, not leaking.
     
  25. GeeRam
    Joined: Jun 9, 2007
    Posts: 434

    GeeRam
    Member

    We don't have low octane gas here in the UK.
    We only have two grades, normal 95RON and super (97-99RON)

    I'm lucky being in the south-east of UK, as Esso Super sold in the south-east of the UK is still E0 and will be until 2025/6.
     
  26. blowby
    Joined: Dec 27, 2012
    Posts: 7,951

    blowby
    Member
    from Nicasio Ca

    Interesting. I have an old gas tractor too and it starts right up, but the gas tank is on top, gravity feed with no fuel pump, so the carb is full as soon as I turn the petcock on, like motorcycles are, or were.
     
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  27. Truckedup
    Joined: Jul 25, 2006
    Posts: 4,204

    Truckedup
    Member

    Your fuel in the UK is no different the America when you realize the octane ratings are based on different formulas...97-99 European octane rating is 93-94 in the US...
     
    gimpyshotrods likes this.
  28. Elcohaulic
    Joined: Dec 27, 2017
    Posts: 2,449

    Elcohaulic
    Member

    I never had any issue with the new gasoline. Lawn mowers, chain saws, cars, trucks.. I use it like I used the old gasoline.. To date I never had any issues... I leave it in my lawn mowers all winter long in my barn and in the spring I change the oil and fire them right up usually on the second pull..
     
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  29. BamaMav
    Joined: Jun 19, 2011
    Posts: 5,092

    BamaMav
    Member
    from Berry, AL

    You don't have the humidity there like was mentioned by several of us. That seems to be the main problem here as well. E fuel will absorb a lot of water in a short period of non use, especially in older vehicles with vented fuel systems. It doesn't seem to affect newer closed fi systems as much.
     
    AHotRod likes this.
  30. blowby
    Joined: Dec 27, 2012
    Posts: 7,951

    blowby
    Member
    from Nicasio Ca

    I have removed the ethanol several times for use in small equipment by pouring about a quart of water into 4 gallons of gas in an Alhambra bottle. The water sits on the bottom. After a day the lever rises about an inch. Another day not much more.
     
    jaw22w likes this.

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