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Technical Need some opinions/advice - 383 chrysler build

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Barsteel, May 17, 2016.

  1. the minimum. drill the block for a 1/2" pick up tube. a high volume oil pump with the black spring and a deeper pan with a windage tray. the windage tray is different for a stroker crank than a stock one. its deeper for rod clearance. full groove main bearings and a hardened tipped pump drive. these parts can support a lot of power. they are bread and butter mopar parts that have been used for decades because they work. a word of caution on the 440 source parts. several friends have bought their parts. you get what you pay for. yes they are the cheapest out there. the machining on the cranks were less than impressive as far as tolerances go. some needed to be reground. just don't throw this together. you need to check tolerances on anything you build. some of the bearings had tolerance issues also. just because you increase the stroke doesn't mean you end up with a short rod. moving the pin on the piston upward allows for a longer rod.
     
    falcongeorge likes this.
  2. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    This can be the case on many of the so-called "cheap" stroker kits out there. The magazines flog these things based on the idea that the kit doesnt cost much more than grinding your crank, pistons and re-sizing your existing rods with good rod bolts,.
    The "cheaper than re-machining your existing stuff" goes right out the window when you find that the kit rod big ends are on the tight side of tolerance and still need to be re-sized to get the bearing clearance right, or the crank journals aren't as round as they should be...
    Racer X has covered the oiling mods pretty well, a swinging pick-up and external lines is even better $$.
     
  3. If it was mine I'd keep the Torker and go with a Holley. I found that my engine made more power with that combination than with an AFB type bolted on. Also, as someone has already stated use the Mopar electronic ignition; simple to install and works well. Have fun with that B engine!
     
    falcongeorge likes this.
  4. The 440 source has some good deals . I have one of their stroker kits in my gasser 513 ci from a 440 my engine builder had to do little tweaking . I had their stealth heads on another motor I put together . I read the specs thougth I was good to go . Ran a few passes car was pulling hard , then on the next pass the motor falls off I find 2 cly. dead .With 5000 mi on the motor it floated 2 intake valves . Then I did what I should have done when building the motor measured all valve springs none where the same ! I took a brand new set of the 440 source heads and measured both height & tension they did not check out too good . We put some comp cam springs and a little tweaking and they work fine. I did not save any time or money by not checking them first . I do have a really cool piston with a valve head stuck in it sideways.
     
  5. The mopar ignition was good in its day. Far better than a points dist. Compared to a msd the mopar sucks. Put a timing light on both to see the difference. You to will become a believer. The mopar dist will not hold steady timing. With the msd you can actually hear the difference on start up. The mopar uses a bushing. The msd uses bearings that hold a tighter tolerance. Both will work but the msd will work better.
     
  6. 50dodge4x4
    Joined: Aug 7, 2004
    Posts: 3,535

    50dodge4x4
    Member

    Its fun to spend other peoples money!
    The difference between the 438 and the 496 will be, the 496 will smoke the tires a little quicker, but will probably not be very noticeable in a 65 Fury with a 4 speed. Tire smoke is going to be a constant companion. Buy all the torque you can afford, but if you don't do some upgrade to the rear suspension and have good rear tires, a lot of it will be a waste of money. But, making tire smoke is fun for a while. Gene
     
    73RR likes this.
  7. Brand Apart
    Joined: Jan 22, 2011
    Posts: 753

    Brand Apart
    Member
    from Roswell GA

    I have a 383 I built in a 68 fury (larger car than 65) with 3:23 rear, daily street driven for 5 years. check out Hughes racing engines, I can't get the smile off my face when I put my right foot down
     
  8. True... but Chevy used a tall-deck block for HD truck applications (longer rods, better ratio) that many racers now use (particularly in bigger versions of this motor), and they never sold a 'high performance' version of the 400 either...
     
  9. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 6,537

    73RR
    Member

    Do you mean the Mopar 400 or is your reference to a shiverlay?
    The oem 400 that came in my RoadRunner was every bit as strong as the previous 383 even with a loss of compression, and that was the only difference when 1972 rolled around.
    Like Barsteel, I thought that I 'needed' more inches so many years ago I built a warmed-over 375hp 440 and put the 400 up on a rack so future consideration. Yup, plenty of tire smoke just about any time I want it but tires are getting expensive so the 400 may get refreshed and go back in.
    Your results may vary.

    .
     
  10. I was referring to Chevy...
     
  11. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    Yup, used both back to back on the same car. With a DC 509, well tuned, switching to the msd made a noticeable difference in idle quality, as indicated on a low damp vacuum gauge.
    I like 400's too. Never actually built one (LOTS of 383's and 440's) but I knew a guy that had one in his pu with a DC484, street dominator and TQ backed with a 10" converter and 3.91s, it ran hard.
     
  12. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    Yes, you definitely need to get rid of that out-dated POS torker and spend $300 on a nice, shiny, new, Car Craft approved Performer RPM...
    203.jpg 205.jpg
     
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  13. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 6,537

    73RR
    Member

    Now that's funny right there! Gotta love the hype.

    .
     
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  14. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    Well and whats REALLY funny is the content of the text vs the actual numbers. 1 ft lb difference (which is well within the margin of error for dyno testing) in the average numbers between 2500-4500, yet they tell you in the text that the RPM is "better" down low. Talk about spin!
    Reality is, theres no difference, and if you spent $300 replacing your 30 yr old torker with an RPM, you would not feel ANY difference. NIL, NOTHING, NADA, ZIP.
    Yet virtually everyone (well, not you or I, but pretty much everyone else) has been telling this guy he "needs to get a dual plane".
    Man, and to think they busted Alan Freed for taking money to play records!!!
     
  15. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    If I were the OP (and I have done this more than a few times) I would probably just build the 383. Keep the torker, a decent 230ish hydraulic cam on a 108 LSA, reverse the pistons on the rods, keep the 516's and do a good pocket port using the DC templates with a few minor mods for the 516's (I can send you specific instructions to follow, they will go about 240ish @ .500) and 2.08/1.72 valves, 10.5/1, and a set of 3.55's or 3.73s in the back.
    One of many BB mopars I built was a 383 built pretty much per above, but 906's, an old DC 509, and a street dominator and 800 dp instead of a torker, with an 11" 340 converter and used 3.91s out of a 6 cyl. D100, it ran high 12's in a '67 Satellite, underhood air, full console and buckets interior, not a gutted race car. How much do you really think you need, and how much is magazine hype BS?
    If you really think thats not enough, build a 440 virtually the same way, and add 10 degrees of duration.
     
  16. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 6,537

    73RR
    Member

    ^^^^solid info right there!

    .
     
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  17. brad2v
    Joined: Jun 29, 2009
    Posts: 1,648

    brad2v
    Member

    ^^^This is the best advice you've received, in my opinion. Your set on keeping the 383, and I completely get that, for ease of installation, as you have ALL of the fiddly bits that fifty and hundred buck you to death on a custom install.
     
  18. Well the 440 is not actually a "custom install" if that is what you refer to.

    The stroker crank would be a custom install and I have yet to find a stroker kit that was an of the shelf bolt in, and even the ones that are close to off the shelf and "balanced rotating assembly" need some help and rebalancing after the help is done. Of course I am picky and perhaps that is why I think they could use a little refining after the fact.

    For a street motor and not a street strip motor I would not go nutz with the cam shaft I would use an off the shelf Mopar Purple, I am pretty sure (not positive without looking) that you can find one that is damned close to @falcongeorge 's suggestion. With a Purple cam you get a cam shaft designed specifically for a MOPAR by the guys who engineer the engine. George is MR Camshaft, I am finicky about rotating assemblies, he is 10 times as knowledgeable about cam shafts and their function, if I have a cam question I ask him.

    I am not spending the cash on the motor so a suggestion from me is just a suggestion, but any mistake that anyone can afford is possible I suppose. ;)
     
  19. brad2v
    Joined: Jun 29, 2009
    Posts: 1,648

    brad2v
    Member

    Ok, my use of the term 'custom install' was going a little far. But there are enough differences between a B engine and an RB that there is money going to be spent installing it, as opposed to the fully dressed engine in it now. So in my eyes, with the objective laid out, I'm pretty sure I'd build the 383. But, if my heart were set on more cubes, that idea would be out the window, and just start with more cubes. And agreed, ask George for a cam recommendation.
    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  20. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    To be honest, I would probably not use a Purple Shaft anymore, they are pretty dated. I used a ton of DC509s back in the day (70's-80's), but the reason for that at the time was, they were about the biggest cam available that was an easy bolt-in, and they were cheap.
    I could use them with the excellent Street Hemi single springs that I could buy at the dealer for around $60 a set, they would fit the stock B/RB retainers, the stock rockers would work with them if I shimmed the shafts, and they were about the biggest cam that would fit in a decked motor with heads that had been milled to the stock nominal CC's. You didnt need to notch the pistons or cut the top of the guides, and they would clear the stock rubber valve seals. In other words, at that time, they were cheap and easy bolt-in hp. Things have changed since then. you cant buy street hemi springs at your deal for $60 a set anymore, and nowadays, if you are building a BB Mopar, the core is old enough that it is a full rebuild, and most of the guys that are building them now arent teenage street racers that are trying to go fast on a peanut butter sandwich budget.
     
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  21. Barsteel
    Joined: Oct 15, 2008
    Posts: 726

    Barsteel
    Member
    from Monroe, CT

    falcongeorge - Thanks for the info.

    I sat down a few nights ago to put together a spreadsheet of how much all the necessary parts would cost, if I replaced everything discussed, before machine work, and the numbers got REALLY big really quickly. The numbers included heads, intake, lifters, rockers/shafts, stroker kit, oil pump, windage tray, pushrods, cam, lifters...the whole 9 yards.

    I think I'm going to reevaluate how I'm going to approach this build. I guess if I can find a 440 with better heads for a reasonable price, I'd seriously consider it, since it would get me on the road faster, for less money, with a faster car, and I can stash the original motor for later if I really wanted to keep it original. Can I afford to build the 383? Sure, but I'd NEVER get the money back, ever, and I don't think that anyone would really care if I decided to sell the car down the road.

    It also seems that even if I just decided to do the 383, I could probably make it fast enough to keep me happy since I don't ever plan on taking the car to the strip.

    Gotta think this one through a little more before I start spending money. I'll post when I decide which direction I want to go if anyone cares to see what happens...

    Chris
     
  22. hemislave
    Joined: Nov 14, 2010
    Posts: 23

    hemislave
    Member

    Falcongeorge gave you solid advice, Your 383 will get the job done. Don't go crazy with the camshaft, the stock oiling system will be fine, it will probably never see anything over 5500 rpm. and swap the gears for 3;23s or 3:55s . upgrade the ignition and you'll be a happy camper!
     
  23. I still run on a peanut butter sandwich budget. :oops: :p The reasons that you mention are all the best reasons to run one. Especially if you are building a car that all it is going to get is driven. ;)

    I think we and the OP have lost sight of a simple statement that makes a mildly built 383 the absolute best option here.
    This is not a "race car' it is a driving around car and other then bragging rights stroker kits and roller cams and exotic something or others are just bragging rights.

    The 383 even in stock trim is no slouch, yes the car is heavy and I'll bet know with the stock motor on its last legs feels a lot like a fishing boat, but with the mill healthy and not wheezing out its last be breath it is gong to be a snappy cruiser all over again. A quicky cam change, either shimming the rockers or buying some adjustable rockers and it should be good to go.
     
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  24. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 6,537

    73RR
    Member

    And, IMHO, this is why a fresh, stock, 440 makes the most sense. Even the lowly 350 hp station wagon engine is a torque monster and should be on the top-o-the-list.....just an opinion......

    .
     
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  25. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 14,568

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    Damn straight.
    Went to high school with a guy, 1970(ish), and he had a new (day two) GTX, 383, 4 speed. One of the most feared cars around at the time.
     
  26. Barsteel
    Joined: Oct 15, 2008
    Posts: 726

    Barsteel
    Member
    from Monroe, CT

    Sorry to keep flogging this thread, but another question for porknbeaner, 73RR, and falcongeorge -

    Excuse my ignorance, but is putting a 440 in place of a 383 a "bolt in" operation? My understanding is that the RB motors have a slightly higher deck than the B motors, but that's it. Is that the case, or are there other mods I'll have to do if I end up going with a 440?

    Thanks...

    Chris
     
  27. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 10,554

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    I thought the 440 was a standard engine in the GTX
    I have a 383 in a 67 charger with the wrong cam and wrong converter and got into the high 12s with it.
     
  28. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 10,554

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    I think there is a different bracket for the alternator but the rest is the same
     
  29. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 14,568

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    I think you are correct.
    I do know the car I mentioned was a GTX, the 440 must be why the thing was so quick.
    I came real close to being a Mopar guy because of the Sport Fury's, Satellites, and GTX's that my high school mates had.
     
  30. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 10,554

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    When I was nine years old my dad took me to the Plymouth dealer with him when he was buying a new car and he was set on buying the Barracuda and tried my best to talk him into buying a GTX.
    Not sure what some snot nosed kid would know about cars at that age.
     

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