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Technical Need some help getting my banger started

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by FlyinA, Mar 6, 2019.

  1. FlyinA
    Joined: May 17, 2017
    Posts: 65

    FlyinA
    Member

    I'm new to hopping up Model A engines. I've done plenty of stock Model A's but I hove no experience with Stromberg 97's or much speed parts.
    Right now I have a rebuilt Model A block with a 6:1 head, headers, a single Stromberg 97, B cam, stock distributor 6v Pos-Ground and a flathead style starter but I have a couple issues.
    First my starter won't turn over the engine. The solenoid works and the battery's charged but it engages for just 1 second and then stops. Then when I push the button again the solenoid just clicks. I'm going to take it out and see if I can find out what's up.
    Second issue (which I don't know if it's an issue yet) is with the Stromberg 97. I have no experience with them, it's a small logo that was supposedly rebuilt but I'm not sure how well or if it's even adjusted at all. I'm currently using gravity feed not a fuel pump but I'm not sure if the carbs getting fuel to the engine correctly. Fuel was getting to the carb inlet I know that for sure
    Since the starter wasn't working I hand cranked it for a while (which was obviously very hard). It had spark at the plugs and is timed but it wouldn't start, not even a single fire.
    What may be going on with the starter? What should I do to check if the carb is adjusted properly before trying to run it? Do any of you have any ideas, tips or tricks?
     
  2. rusty valley
    Joined: Oct 25, 2014
    Posts: 675

    rusty valley
    Member

    did you put the backwards spring on the flathead starter? if so, perhaps the starter is only stuck engaged to the flywheel. that happens occasionally. put it in high gear and rock the car, you might hear the starter drive back out. next, make sure the starter is getting good ground. got new paint? once running, an 81 would be a better carb for the A, yeah, i know, they are expensive. set the air screws at 1 1/2 turns out, make sure the throttle plate has a slight bit of clearance (high idle), and fire it up
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
  3. Model A Gomez
    Joined: Aug 26, 2006
    Posts: 1,020

    Model A Gomez
    Member

    I ran the same basic set up on my 30 pickup other than the starter for a while and had the needle valve in the carb stuck one night and filled the cylinders with gas. I would pull the plugs and see if they are gas fouled, that will keep them from firing. Try cranking the engine with the plugs out and see if it is still real tight, I'm running a Bromfield 6.5/1 head and can start mine with the crank. I run a stock Model A starter on 12 volts with the new style Bendix and have for 18 years with no problems. When I first built the truck I ran the stock style Bendix and 12 volts and the spring wound tighter and froze the Bendix. I agree with Rusty Valley on the 81, the 97 is 162 cfm and the 81 is 125 cfm, the 81 is sized better for the 200 c.i. banger.
     
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  4. Binger
    Joined: Apr 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,559

    Binger
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from wyoming

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  5. 98.JPG A rebuilt engine with a high compression head is going to be harder to hand crank than a stock one and since you can get it to crank over by hand, I would say that your problem is with the starter. As far as the carburetor, nothing wrong with the 97 if it is jetted correctly. I ran a big logo 97 on my banger with no problems at all. I had Uncle Max go thru mine and set it up to run on the banger. The 97 does not like gravity feed, install a low pressure electric fuel pump and a low pressure fuel regulator. I also ran an FSI distributor, it made a big difference.
     
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  6. Petejoe
    Joined: Nov 27, 2002
    Posts: 9,826

    Petejoe
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Zoar, Ohio

    Remove your spark plugs and try turning over the engine with the starter.
    I’m leaning toward the high compression causing this problem. If it turns it over and retracts correctly you’ll know it’s not a spring or gear engagement problem.
    The starter may need a rebuild at that point.

    Remove your 97 top and check your float height.
    Then turn your air and fuel adjustment knobs all the way in to stop then back them out 1-1/2 turns. This is a good starting point.
    These carbs require 1-1/2 to 2-1/2 lbs pressure.
    I really don’t know whether a gravity fed system would keep them happy. Never ran one.
    Love hot rod bangers. Am jealous.
     
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  7. FlyinA
    Joined: May 17, 2017
    Posts: 65

    FlyinA
    Member

    Ok, thanks, I might be able to pull the starter today and see what’s up. I think Stromberg is hinting at reproducing the 81?


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  8. FlyinA
    Joined: May 17, 2017
    Posts: 65

    FlyinA
    Member

    The starter doesn’t even turn it with the plugs out but I can hand crank it


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  9. FlyinA
    Joined: May 17, 2017
    Posts: 65

    FlyinA
    Member

    I have a used FSI to go on this engine but I’m not sure if it works yet, I’m trying to get it started on a stock distributor first . What jets do you recommend?


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  10. FlyinA
    Joined: May 17, 2017
    Posts: 65

    FlyinA
    Member

    It’s a rebuilt starter, but it doesn’t even turn it with the plugs out. Are you supposed to pre-wind the starter? I cant remember if I did


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  11. FlyinA
    Joined: May 17, 2017
    Posts: 65

    FlyinA
    Member

    I have a 5lb pump and a regulator, but I was told that even with a regulator it’d be too much pressure and a gravity feed system could feed a single 97


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  12. FlyinA
    Joined: May 17, 2017
    Posts: 65

    FlyinA
    Member

    The plugs aren’t fouled, the engine has never run, it just doesn’t seem to be getting fuel


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  13. Binger
    Joined: Apr 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,559

    Binger
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from wyoming

    I run a single 97 and it runs great! I run a carter pump and a Malapazi regulator/ filter unit. Set it at 1 1/2lbs. The car ran great that way with my stock engine and even better with a new warmed up engine. IMG_1771.JPG


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  14. I don't remember, now, what was in it. As I said, I had Uncle Max go thru the carb and set it up. Contact him, he's here on the hamb and also an Alliance Vendor. He's a real nice guy and very helpful.
     
  15. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 3,925

    sunbeam
    Member

    Check voltage at starter
     
  16. I found the info on the jets, .043 main jets with a #71 power valve.
     
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  17. rusty valley
    Joined: Oct 25, 2014
    Posts: 675

    rusty valley
    Member

    no need to pull the starter yet, as i said it may just be hung up in the ring gear. if so, you turn the motor over backwards so it will spin the drive gear away from the flywheel. rock the car in high gear back and forth, or turn the motor backwards. you say you have a flathead style starter, did you build that from the secrets of speed article? and you went to a starter shop and bought a reversed spring for the bendex drive ?
     
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  18. Zundapp 57
    Joined: Mar 2, 2019
    Posts: 11

    Zundapp 57
    Member

    My fourbanger runs a stock model A starter with the foot engage switch. Make sure your battery wires are heavy enough and you have a good ground on the engine. also the battery is in really good shape. As with the 6v starter you draw alot more amps. you need a battery with a high cold cranking amp rating. I think im using one with 6v , 650 CCA. The stromberg 97 works fine if you have it jetted right. I have two carbs on my equilzer intake manifold,but the rear one is a dumby. takes a couple stabs on the throttle and full choke to get it come to life. also you need a little advance if the cams not stock. Im using a 6.5 to1 lion speed head, stock distributor with a 40,000 volt pertronix 6v coil.
     
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  19. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 8,933

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    You have gone from an updraft carb under the manifold to a downdraft that sits a foot higher, plus carburetors meant for gravity feed have bigger needle valves. In other words, you need a fuel pump. I'm not saying it won't start without one but once you get on the road it will starve for gas especially on hills and may run out completely when the tank is low.

    It is possible to time the engine perfectly and have it 180 degrees out, firing at the end of the exhaust stroke. It is easy enough to tell with the plugs out, if air wooshes out the #1 plug hole and the rotor points to #1 wire you are ok. I don't think this is your trouble but it might be worth checking.
     
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  20. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 1,454

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I'm going to suggest you pull the spark plugs and see if the starter will spin the engine with them out and no compression....you may have other problems than the starter. Someone hit on a hydro lock with fuel earlier. If you haven't run it and re-torqued the head you may have coolant in a cylinder....again hydro lock.
    Don't break or bend anything
    Do you have a hand crank?
     
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  21. FlyinA
    Joined: May 17, 2017
    Posts: 65

    FlyinA
    Member

    The starter now works, not sure exactly what it was but now it works as it should. However gas still seems to be not getting to the engine but i can see fuel flowing when i pull the throttle, ideas? I’m just going through trial and error right now.



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  22. Petejoe
    Joined: Nov 27, 2002
    Posts: 9,826

    Petejoe
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Zoar, Ohio

    Pull the plugs. Are they wet!
    If so replace or clean them. Dry? How much fuel pressure is entering the carb??
    Should be 1-1/2 to 2-1/2 lbs.
    Look for a weak spark plug caused by the coil normally or the wires in the system.
    Proper compression, spark, fuel and air. The basics.
     
  23. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 8,933

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    See post #19 above.
     
  24. FlyinA
    Joined: May 17, 2017
    Posts: 65

    FlyinA
    Member

    Got it to fire! But it needs some adjustments that’s for sure. It starts, runs for about 5 seconds, coughs a few times and then shuts off. I can get it to run a little longer if I’m on the throttle. Plugs are black. Does this have to do with running on gravity feed/low fuel pressure?


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  25. FlyinA
    Joined: May 17, 2017
    Posts: 65

    FlyinA
    Member

    [​IMG]

    It idles when choked this much


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  26. Petejoe
    Joined: Nov 27, 2002
    Posts: 9,826

    Petejoe
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Zoar, Ohio

    We’ve already answered what fuel pressure makes your Stromberg happy.
    You’re running in circles by not following everyone’s advise.
     
  27. PhredH
    Joined: Feb 28, 2015
    Posts: 47

    PhredH

    Over years of tinkering with my banger, I have learned a lot from HAMBer's and others. In your setup, the following may be of interest,

    With your tubular headers you have lost your carb/manifold heat. The car will need some choke to from a cold start. An increase in initial ignition timing helped me keep things running smoother and less warm up time on the choke. Don't have the Model A "pucka pucka"sounding idle as a goal anymore.

    With a 6V pertronix (FSI) maintain a fully charged battery with excellent electrical connections, grounds, and cables. The Pertronix unit will need 5.4(?) volts for its "computer" to work. If the starter draws too much current, there an be a resulting drop in voltage at the Petronix unit and the engine will not start.

    I have played around with jetting on my single 97 and have found the stock 45/65 jetting works great at my 900' elevation.

    Hope this can be of some help.
     
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  28. Zundapp 57
    Joined: Mar 2, 2019
    Posts: 11

    Zundapp 57
    Member

    I agree with PhredH need to keep your engine advanced until it warms up. Petejoe is also correct your carb might not be low enough to get the 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 psi fuel pressure. I also noticed your idle stop screw is turned in pretty far and you might be pulling in fuel from the main jet turning your plugs black. for my equilizer manifold I made up an aluminum angle plate and U bolted it to the headers to transfer heat to the intake manifold.
    20190314_090602.jpg 20190314_090640.jpg
     
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