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Hot Rods Need Electrical Assistance

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 1937FordCoupe, Jan 10, 2015.

  1. 1937FordCoupe
    Joined: Dec 7, 2008
    Posts: 79

    1937FordCoupe
    Member

    Looking for some electrical Help. I am trying to install Autoloc Momentary Switches to power my windows in my 37 Coupe. The Switches are Keep It Clean 19MM Momentary Billet Buttons with LED Rings and using the associated Plug and Play Harness. The Relays are The Speedway Engineering Relays and Harnesses. Bosch type Relay. 30/40 amp.



    The Power Windows work when wired, without relays, using a standard power window switch. No issues.



    When I wire the Windows with the momentary switches, as defined by Keep it Clean / Autoloc, the LED activates and I hear the relay click, and I get 12V to one of the circuits to the power window motor - but I appear to have a problem with the return ground - and I have no idea how to overcome this problem. I know it’s the ground - because I can get a button to work if I jury-rig it with the old power window 5 lead switches on the “return leg” as this provides me the ground I appear to be missing.



    I have follow and retraced stepsIn the Autoloc diagram - I have the same behavior with all 4 switches.



    The only thing I am doing different than the Autoloc Diagram is the 87a ground. I can’t ground 87a, as it gets power when I activate the switch (as it should, I believe) and causes a short that fries the fuse.



    I put a meter on the relay and here is what I found - without activating the switches. 85, 86 and 87 are all hot. 30 and 87a are not. When I activate the switches, 30 and 87a then are hot.



    Thoughts and ideas where to go would be great

    Thanks

    Clark
     

    Attached Files:

  2. You have 2 wire window motors or 3 wire motors.
    With a 2 wire motor the OEM window switch changes the polarity to the wires which reverses the direction of the motor creating up and down. No way around that with 2 wire widow motors.

    87a is normally closed to 30. Their instructions are lacking.
    They think the relay does something it doesn't. Perhaps a different type might but not the pin 87a
     
  3. Engine man
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,480

    Engine man
    Member
    from Wisconsin

    In that circuit, terminal 87a can't get power except through the window motor which would turn the motor. Terminal 87a is connected to terminal 30 when the relay is not energized [button not pushed] so it provides the ground. Terminal 87 is connected to terminal 30 when the relay is energized [button pushed]. Ground 87a and the circuit will work.
     
  4. nukeman
    Joined: Mar 17, 2007
    Posts: 132

    nukeman
    Member
    from Michigan

    I agree with Engine Man. It should work as drawn, but make sure the switches are wired as shown too. They actually provide the ground for the relay coil when pushed. (I hate using switches to ground a circuit to activate it. It's like switching the neutral in house wiring. It's also easier for most people to think of a switch as turning on power, as opposed to completing the circuit by grounding.)
     

  5. I put a meter on the relay and here is what I found - without activating the switches. 85, 86 and 87 are all hot. 30 and 87a are not. When I activate the switches, 30 and 87a then are hot.

    image.jpg

    [​IMG]
     
  6. nukeman
    Joined: Mar 17, 2007
    Posts: 132

    nukeman
    Member
    from Michigan

    Correct.
    When he pushes the left button, the left relay energizes and he can read 12 volts through the motor on the right relays 87a terminal.
    If it was grounded it would run.
    If he pushes both buttons at the same time both relays should energize and he should not see 12 volts on either 87a terminals.
     
  7. Engine man
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,480

    Engine man
    Member
    from Wisconsin

    Look closely at the 2 diagrams. 12 volt power is connected to terminal 87 not terminal 30. It is wired like a light that is controlled by 2 different switches. Terminal 30 is connected to the motor and is either grounded or powered depending on which direction is selected.
     
  8. 37ford coupe said -

    I have follow and retraced stepsIn the Autoloc diagram - I have the same behavior with all 4 switches.

    So there is consistency at least.

    Then later 37ford coupe said -
    I put a meter on the relay and here is what I found - without activating the switches. 85, 86 and 87 are all hot. 30 and 87a are not. When I activate the switches, 30 and 87a then are hot.

    Based off the schematic 87a should never be hot - switch either which way ever.

    So based off of that something on the directions is lacking, we don't have all the info or retracing of the steps is still inaccurate.
     
  9. nukeman
    Joined: Mar 17, 2007
    Posts: 132

    nukeman
    Member
    from Michigan

    Around here, that method of wiring a light is called using "Chicago travelers". It's not legal anymore because you could turn the light off but still have two hot wires in the light box and on the light socket! It's still common to find it in old houses if you do service work. ( It came from the "knob and tube" days )
     
  10. nukeman
    Joined: Mar 17, 2007
    Posts: 132

    nukeman
    Member
    from Michigan

    I agree we don't have all the info.
    We have no drawing with the four switches and he only talks about one relay when he mentions using the meter? And when he activates the switches he doesn't say he still has 12 volts on 86 and 87 but 85 is now grounded but we know that should be true (for the energized relay) nor does he mention the voltage on the other 87a terminal.

    As for 87a never being hot, it will be hot on one relay if the other relay is energized because you will see the voltage coming through the motor.
     
  11. Fenders
    Joined: Sep 8, 2007
    Posts: 3,921

    Fenders
    Member

    The diagram is correct, and as 31 Vicky said, 87a should never be hot (it is grounded). Looks like a simple case of miswiring somewhere.

    FWIW the two switches could be replaced with one "single pole, double throw, center off" toggle switch for up/down. But the miswire here is somewhere in the relay wiring.

    EDIT: Do you really have BOSCH relays? Here is the internal schematic of a Bosch.... http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/benimur/2012-06-11_092509_bosch_relay_multi-switch.jpg

    You can see that if the relay is energized by grounding 85 by the pushbutton, then 87a is connected to only the wire connected to it which goes to ground.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2015
  12. nukeman
    Joined: Mar 17, 2007
    Posts: 132

    nukeman
    Member
    from Michigan

    Did you see where the OP didn't have 87a grounded when he took his readings?
    I'm guessing the OP likes his led switches.
     
  13. What happens I gathered from reading is that when 87a is grounded it pops the fuse. That means he's got a dead short thru 30
    - which goes to the motor
    - that works perfectly with OEM switches

    So the ground is not hooked up & the windows will never work without a ground

    Also 85 and 86 are both hot with dormant relay.
    - pin 87a has nothing
    But when activated pin 87a gets continuity to 30.

    That tells me something is ass backwards, at the very least some confusion of is the relay triggered or dormant maybe the switches are backwards.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2015
  14. nukeman
    Joined: Mar 17, 2007
    Posts: 132

    nukeman
    Member
    from Michigan

    That means something is wrong, but just what is wrong is still unknown.
    At least three people on here as well as the manufacturer agree that the diagram is correct.
     
  15. nukeman
    Joined: Mar 17, 2007
    Posts: 132

    nukeman
    Member
    from Michigan


    86 and 87 will always be hot because they are connected to the fuse...
    85 reads hot because it is not being grounded by the switch and you can read the voltage through the coil of the relay.
     
  16. Engine man
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,480

    Engine man
    Member
    from Wisconsin

    I have enough information to guarantee that when both 87a terminals are grounded, it will work.
     
  17. Engine man
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,480

    Engine man
    Member
    from Wisconsin

    I guess I should add; If he has the correct relays. Bosch also has a 5 pin cube relay that has 2 normally open contacts that will connect both 87 and 87a to terminal 30 when energized but the diagram is on the relay. Another thing that could happen is the 87a contact could weld closed if too much current was run through it.
     
  18. 24riverview
    Joined: Jan 13, 2008
    Posts: 978

    24riverview
    Member

    This was my first thought also. Look real close at the bottom of the relay, if you have the wrong one the center terminal will be marked 87 not 87a and yes you will have 2 87's.
    Edit-just noticed the picture of bottom of relay, does that say 87 2? Either way, just check for continuity between the center terminal and #3o, should be with relay off. If not check continuity between 87 and center, if yes wrong relay.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2015
    31Vicky with a hemi likes this.
  19. image.jpg
    It Doesn't say 87A
    image.jpg

    That would explain some of the verbal description
     
  20. Fenders
    Joined: Sep 8, 2007
    Posts: 3,921

    Fenders
    Member

    I agree, assuming the OPs wiring is correct, and the relays operate properly.
    If that is true, then:
    the OP has a bad motor (shorted) or his fuse is rated too low.

    OP, test your motor out of circuit. Does it run, in both directions? How much current does it draw?
    Check your fuses.
    Swap motors and see if the circuit works.

    It is possible he has two bad motors. After all, Keep it Clean/Autoloc is a Hoffman company.
     
  21. 55Brodie
    Joined: Dec 15, 2008
    Posts: 746

    55Brodie
    Member

    Shouldn't you be using a maintained switch instead of a momentary?
     
  22. Fenders,

    37 ford coupe said :
    The Power Windows work when wired, without relays, using a standard power window switch. No issues.

    That being said, there probably isn't an issue in the motors. Well unless they've been fried since the test but I still doubt it.

    Your 87-2 relay scenario is most likely the culprit .

    37 ford coupe said :
    The only thing I am doing different than the Autoloc Diagram is the 87a ground. I can’t ground 87a, as it gets power when I activate the switch (as it should, I believe) and causes a short that fries the fuse.

    When i read thru that ^ with the presumption that what thinks is 87a is not and is actually pin 87-2 or 87b of a double throw relay the problem looks more to be the wrong relays. Although its still a bit off. As the case should be if 87 gets battery power then 87-2 or 87b gets a ground it should instantly blow the fuse regardless of the switch activation.

    image.jpg

    While reading the OP verbal explanation with the logic process of a 87a type relay in mind, the explanation doesn't make much sense and seems possessed by electrical demons that yearn to free the smoke.
    image.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2015
  23. 1937FordCoupe
    Joined: Dec 7, 2008
    Posts: 79

    1937FordCoupe
    Member

    Relay Bottom.jpg Relay side .jpg Thanks for all the help - I validate the Relay as a 87a vs an 87 (2). See attached. The original photo of the relay I uploaded was what I thought was identical to the relays I am using - but - as highlighted may be different. I will restep my tracks and add a ground to 87a and report back the results. Thanks for all the great help - Clark -
     
  24. Engine man
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,480

    Engine man
    Member
    from Wisconsin

    That picture of the relay shows the correct relay for the application. You see that 87a is normally connected to 30, which in your application is connected to the motor. When the relay is energized, the connection between 87a and 30 is opened and 30 is connected to 87 instead. In most applications that these relays are used in, the power would be applied to terminal 30 so it can get confusing when power is applied at terminal 87. The different versions of the relay with the same physical appearance adds to the confusion. Some relay manufacturers don't include the electrical diagrams on the relay which can add to the confusion. I work on several German machines that use smaller relays that don't have diagrams on them and the numbering systems vary by manufacturer. I often need to find the relay online to make certain it matches the one being replaced.
     
  25. 1937FordCoupe
    Joined: Dec 7, 2008
    Posts: 79

    1937FordCoupe
    Member

    You guys are the best - Thanks! I added the ground to 87a. The switches worked as expected. I really appreciate all your help on this!

    Clark
     

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