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Need drum brake help ASAP!

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by vintagesurvivor, May 28, 2006.

  1. vintagesurvivor
    Joined: Mar 12, 2006
    Posts: 385

    vintagesurvivor
    Member
    from detroit

    The front of the survivor has a shoe that is hanging up, and REALLY heating up the drum, making the car essentially not drivable.
    First, all the parts are new. Hoses, wheel cylinder, lines, springs,shoes, all of it. Only the drum is original to the car.
    The Drivers side is bad, all other wheels are OK and functioning properly...

    I took this thing apart 3 times now, and STILL the front shoe is contacting the drum and heating it up.
    I ground a small amount off the top adjuster, thinking it was not allowing the shoe to close in enough. THat wasn't it. Took about .030 off the shoe where it enters the wheel cylinder. THat didnt do it.
    Ground a small amount off the shoe (enough to break the glaze that formed), and That didnt do it.
    I removed the drum ( it was REALLY hot when I got home), and hit the brake pedal.
    The front shoe moved outward, but DID NOT retract.
    The rear shoe did not move.

    I think the problem is not the assembly, but that the shoes are not retracting after I hit the brakes the first time.

    I am going to tear down the wheel cylinder tomorrow, and lightly hone it , see if its hanging up form a burr or something.
    I am going to blow out the cylinder as there may be a piece of gunk blocking the return flow of brake fluid.

    Once the cylinder expands, it;s impossible to get it to go back together.

    Any hints or ideas?????

    One pic of wheel cylinder, one of drum setup (before cooking)

    THANKS!
    Mark
     

    Attached Files:

  2. muffman58
    Joined: Oct 24, 2003
    Posts: 999

    muffman58
    Member

    Not to be a smartass, but just because the parts are new, don`t mean there good! Just went through the same thing on a friend`s ride and dam if the new hose wasn`t bad! Just a thought, pump up the brakes and see if the wheel is still hung up, then open the bleeder and see if you can turn the wheel. If so its more than likely the hose.
     
  3. chrisntx
    Joined: Jan 20, 2006
    Posts: 1,798

    chrisntx
    Member
    from Texas .

    The hose has swelled almost shut. Pedal pressure is high and forces fluid out but return spring pressure is not enough to force fluid back to the master. Replace the rubber brake hose to that wheel
     
  4. :D Yes to reply#2 & #3, have seen that once before with a new hose a few years back. Also, what year/make/model brake system do you have or is it a blend of parts? (just curious at this point) Gary 4T950 Chevy Guy
     

  5. vintagesurvivor
    Joined: Mar 12, 2006
    Posts: 385

    vintagesurvivor
    Member
    from detroit

    39 Ford drum brake setup on 29 A axle. 50's vintage stuff.

    Right side is working fine, only left front is sticking.

    My first guess was that the rubber line, while new, has collapsed, acting as a one-way check valve.
    I will replace that. Odd that a new one would be bad, but who knows right?
    I will remove the wheel cylinder, and if Ic an retract it easily, that would also point toward the hose.

    Sucks, this stuff is all new....

    What do you think of also adding a second spring to aid return?
     
  6. :D I would not do that, my 2 cents. One other thought also when you remove that wheel cylinder is to check and make sure that there is not a problem with it getting hung up(burr?) Good luck! Gary 4T950 Chevy Guy
     
  7. vintagesurvivor
    Joined: Mar 12, 2006
    Posts: 385

    vintagesurvivor
    Member
    from detroit

    Yup, I mentioned that already. I'll know more tomorrow, thanks for any advice, I need it on this one.

    Pretty sure its the hose or the cylinder, or quite possibly, both!

    Mark
     
  8. :D Wishing you best of luck on that, you'll find it & fix it! Gary 4T950 Chevy Guy
     
  9. vintagesurvivor
    Joined: Mar 12, 2006
    Posts: 385

    vintagesurvivor
    Member
    from detroit

    Lets hope, cuz the drive was a BLAST other than that. Nothing like wide open exhaust to scare people in traffic :D

    Mark
     
  10. skipperman
    Joined: Dec 24, 2002
    Posts: 1,837

    skipperman
    Member

    Had the same problem on my 62 Impala ...... you said all was new ... how about the RETURN SPRINGS ???? changed mine and the problem STOPPED ...

    Jersey skip
     
  11. leon renaud
    Joined: Nov 12, 2005
    Posts: 1,936

    leon renaud
    Member
    from N.E. Ct.

    like the others said here check the rubber line there may be a piece of line acting like a flapper valve allowing the fluid to travel only in one dirrection this is a common thing on old lines often getting the calipers on disc brake cars blamed for sticking.the inner hose may have been damaged during the assembly of the end fittings and this situation could occur in the new line
     
  12. vintagesurvivor
    Joined: Mar 12, 2006
    Posts: 385

    vintagesurvivor
    Member
    from detroit

    OK, NOW I am getting frustrated!
    (yes, the spring is new also.)

    I bought a new rubber line, installed, bled,re-assembled, and took for ride.
    STILL hanging up. Tried releasing pressure through the bleed screw, but shoes would not move with the drum off. They would not come back to the resting position when assembled, by pushing, or releasing the pressure through the bleed screw.

    Took it all apart, removed the wheel cylinder, disassembled it, cleaned it, re-assembled it, re-bled. Took for ride, STILL hanging up and getting hot.

    Took it apart again, honed out the cylinder a bit, thinking it might free up something. Re-assembled it, bled, took for ride. STILL sticking. Hot. Hot enough to sizzle water on it.Other drum MUCH cooler.

    Took it apart again, greased up the lower adjusters even more, bled it, took for ride. Still hanging up.

    Took a small amount off the Master cylinder rod, thinking maybe the piston is not coming back all the way, still didn't work.

    I noticed that when I first back off the wheel bearing nut, the wheel seems to spin pretty darned free compared to when it is tight. Odd indication...

    I am really at a loss guys.
    I don't get it. I can move the pistons in the bores by hand now, but once on the car they won't recover.

    I should punch the races out, have the drum spun, get a new cylinder , and a new set of races/bearings.

    This is really startin' to piss me off :p

    ideas?

    Mark
     
  13. If you can bleed the brakes (fluid is moving), but the shoes don't retract when the bleeder is open, it sounds like a mechanical problem, not hydraulic.

    Just a dumb question, but are you getting any wear on the backing plate, like the drum is jammed against it when you snug the bearing (you'd likely hear that )

    If you push in on one shoe, does the other go out, or are they "stuck" once you have applied the brakes?
     
  14. vintagesurvivor
    Joined: Mar 12, 2006
    Posts: 385

    vintagesurvivor
    Member
    from detroit

    No wear at all on the backing plate. The drum spins freely at assembly, but once you hit the brakes, the shoes do not retract enough. They release SOME, but they are still dragging. They line up fine on the backing plate. When assembled on the empty backing plate with no cylinder, they move freely.

    Its the shoes cooking in the drum.

    One shoe goes out when you push on the opposite.
     
  15. vintagesurvivor
    Joined: Mar 12, 2006
    Posts: 385

    vintagesurvivor
    Member
    from detroit

  16. First i thought you might have a small piece of gunk in your lines but if you have bled it that many times it should be out.I once had a bit of gunk in a master cylinder which stopped the brake fluid from returning. How about changing bit by bit to the other side,taking a drive around the block after each fitment to see when it begins to bind and to see if the binding begins on the other side.
     
  17. vintagesurvivor
    Joined: Mar 12, 2006
    Posts: 385

    vintagesurvivor
    Member
    from detroit

    Good idea. No gunk in ANYTHING now, I have been through it many times. If it were in the master, it would stop all the brakes from coming back, more than likely.
    I can eliminate the rubber hose, two different hoses did the same thing.
    The cylinder is freed up, and not swapable side to side.
    That only leaves the drum, and the shoes.

    I am going to have the drum turned. Ordered new bearings and races. Who knows?

    Only thing I can think of, is that MAYBE the shoes, since they are reman's, are thicker than the originals, and when I tighten them up on the bottom, it's gripping them? Maybe? I checked them with no cylinder, but I did not have the bottom adjusters tightened, I believe.

    Any other ideas guys? This is all thats holding me up form enjoyment!

    Mark
     
  18. repoman
    Joined: Jan 2, 2005
    Posts: 1,276

    repoman
    Member

    Take the drum off.

    Grab a shoe and pull it forward.

    Does it spring back?
     
  19. BenD
    Joined: Mar 5, 2001
    Posts: 1,591

    BenD
    Alliance Member

    I had this happen on my '48 dodge with stock front brakes and a 9" rear. Only it was the left rear that kept locking up. We rebuilt the master cylinder and that fixed it finally. Sounds extreme but that's what it took.
     
  20. Apply the brakes...if they don't retract, try breaking the hose loose from the back of the wheel cylinder and watch the shoes to see if they retract. If the wheel cylinder moves back and forth when you push the shoes, and they retract without the cylinder in place, what's left is hydraulic pressure not bleeding off when you let up on the pedal. Crack the hose right at the cylinder NOT at the hardline. Hope this helps.
     
  21. robster
    Joined: Jan 11, 2005
    Posts: 198

    robster
    Member

    Bent drum perhaps? Put it on a lathe and spin it. If it's bent you will see it.
     
  22. Upchuck
    Joined: Mar 19, 2004
    Posts: 1,576

    Upchuck
    Member
    from Canada BC

    if the springs are good and not repainted wore out ones I'd say the shoe is hanging up some place maybe at the top and its not being able to settle back over that big stud?
     
  23. Upchuck
    Joined: Mar 19, 2004
    Posts: 1,576

    Upchuck
    Member
    from Canada BC

    also them little rods that go from the wheel cylinder to the shoe is the right length and not pirated off something years ago to get it on the road quick?
     
  24. oldguy829
    Joined: Sep 19, 2005
    Posts: 376

    oldguy829
    Member

    Maybe the shoe is hangin up on the inside of the drum? Pretty simple to grind an 1/8 inch off the outside edge of the shoes and see if it changes.
     
  25. vintagesurvivor
    Joined: Mar 12, 2006
    Posts: 385

    vintagesurvivor
    Member
    from detroit

    Thanks for the suggestions, I am going out there tonight to play with it agian, and try a few of the ideas.
    Thanks much, will post result.

    Mark
     
  26. Big Pete
    Joined: Aug 7, 2005
    Posts: 364

    Big Pete
    Member

    It sounds like a lot of work but this is what I have to do when it gets like this. Swap around the drums and shoes, pieces does the problem follow the parts or stick with the hydrolics. Maybe what's different will leap out at you.
     
  27. BElive it or not but an old trick WAS to use two return springs to bring the shoes back.

    I had the same problem with my first roadster and it drove me nuts. An old timer told me to double up the return springs and the shoe moved back on it's own. Also make sure you have some grease on the shoe where it does contact the backing plate to make it slide easier.

    Good luck and I hope to see it at Billitproof this weekend.
     
  28. Brandy
    Joined: Dec 23, 2004
    Posts: 5,286

    Brandy
    Member
    from Texas

    I did that with my Pontiac. It works just fine for me........ALTHO I dunno about anything greasy on my shoes. Might slip and break an ankle.;) :D
     
  29. Girls are allowed to be cute;) :D
     
  30. Brandy
    Joined: Dec 23, 2004
    Posts: 5,286

    Brandy
    Member
    from Texas

    Hahahaha, I tore apart the mechanical brakes on an old tractor. I did one side and hand cleaned them til my hands bled. They were caked in oil and mud and horse shit from the last 65 years.

    The guy who tore apart the other side thought he'd be smart and used solvent on his set of brake shoes to clean them.

    He didn't think I was so cute when I was doing my impression of a man pouting.:D

    But nah I got your meaning the first time.....a lil on the shoe, beside the backing plate so they don't rub and cause frisk-tion.
     

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