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History Mystery Grille HELP! Trying to identify

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by lockwoodkustoms, Apr 18, 2016.

  1. Whatever it is, it has a great shape and would be perfect for a TROG build.

    Steve
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2016
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  2. mgtstumpy
    Joined: Jul 20, 2006
    Posts: 8,350

    mgtstumpy
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  3. Jeff Norwell
    Joined: Aug 20, 2003
    Posts: 13,091

    Jeff Norwell
    MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    Joey...we're just gonna call ya "Moe" from now on..done.
     
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  4. Hot Rods Ta Hell
    Joined: Apr 20, 2008
    Posts: 4,114

    Hot Rods Ta Hell
    Member

    I'd wager definitely a Custom, one-off casting.

    A close look at the close up photo in post #23 reveals the circle isn't accurately round (at 5 O clock) and the legs of the M are not the same (right side wider). Rough background behind the M.
    Maybe started with a Franklin, etc as a template starting point.
    Maybe for a board track car. Last name 'M' (miller, etc)
     
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  5. arkiehotrods
    Joined: Mar 9, 2006
    Posts: 6,030

    arkiehotrods
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    looks very similar to BNC (Bollack Netter & Co) cyclecar, French
     
  6. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,539

    The37Kid
    Member

    Really nice piece to build a car around. it is Model T Ford era, but the bottom mounts don't look like a T fit. Went through the Standard Catalog of American cars 1805-1942 "M" section and nothing looks close. Maybe the "M" is for an aftermarket body company like Mercury or Morton & Brett. Post a build thread once you get started. Bob
     
  7. lockwoodkustoms
    Joined: Dec 22, 2005
    Posts: 3,910

    lockwoodkustoms
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    I can not find anything on this grille anywhere. I am hoping someone will stumble on an old photo of it on the car it came from. I am really beginning to believe it is a cutom piece because the cast grille is not 100% perfect by any means. But WHAT? it came from or supposed to be on is driving me crazt....lol. We just sent pics to Rick Love over at Vintage Air he said the guys he showed it to think Marmon. But I can not find anything that links it to a Marmon.
     
  8. lockwoodkustoms
    Joined: Dec 22, 2005
    Posts: 3,910

    lockwoodkustoms
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    I am hoping that someone here can show it to someone who may know what it is off of. Even though I am a Hot Rodder and usual find myself saying nothing is sacred in my garage for some reason I believe if this grille belongs to a specific car of importance than it should be used on that car or recreate the car it came from or belong too
     
  9. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 17,574

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Still snoopin JL...Like Squablow I don't settle for stumped but this ones a toughy o_O...Hey I see 2 tags whats on them any numbers?
     
  10. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,539

    The37Kid
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    Have you put a thread gauge on the filler neck to see if it has metric threads? Just wondering if that Livingston tag was added after some repair work was done. Post the photo on PreWarCar.com a really great website that may help you ID the radiator. Post it on the Cycle Car thread here on the HAMB as well. Bob
     
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  11. belair
    Joined: Jul 10, 2006
    Posts: 8,574

    belair
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    You have it upside down. It's off of a 1928 Wombat.
     
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  12. That's neat AF! The "M" stands for mystery!
     
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  13. lockwoodkustoms
    Joined: Dec 22, 2005
    Posts: 3,910

    lockwoodkustoms
    Member

    Jeff that sounds good :)
     
  14. Just saw a piece in Classic Car that may be a clue. Seems a few custom body builders (think Teens and 20's) would also make up a custom radiator. One pic shown had a radiator with similar contours. Add the owner's monogram, and I think that may be a real possibility.

    Cosmo
     
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  15. Last edited: May 6, 2016
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  16. lockwoodkustoms
    Joined: Dec 22, 2005
    Posts: 3,910

    lockwoodkustoms
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    Thanks everyone for trying to help me with this I truly appreciate it :)
     
  17. COUPES
    Joined: Feb 24, 2013
    Posts: 171

    COUPES
    Member
    from England

    Marston made radiators in the UK. I wondered if it was a show piece to show what they could do? I will email The Automobile and see if anyone knows anything. Honeycomb grill is a sign of something well made.
     
  18. Never2low
    Joined: Jan 14, 2008
    Posts: 1,124

    Never2low
    Member

    Morton & Brett speedway bodies?
    [​IMG]
     
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  19. Never2low
    Joined: Jan 14, 2008
    Posts: 1,124

    Never2low
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  20. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 17,574

    Stogy
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    Great detective work there Never2. While this is a very close likeness to Lockwood's work if art it lacks the logo and it is a very tough call.
    It could have been a one off special of what you found. The creators last name initial certainly matchs.
    I have a few more details to add. The drawing of the rad shows the sides more vertical...also the bottom corners are more rounded on Morton's design.
    Tough finding original speedster pics of this particular design to compare... also of note is thus style of radiator/shell seems often to be refered to as Fiat style.

    USD54668-0.png
    https://www.google.com/patents/USD54668

    ggbn77v.JPG

    1921-underslung-speedster-ad-mounts-any-ford-frame-model-t-kit-racer_231819902703.jpg

    393522.jpg
    a huge array of speedster photos here...
    http://www.modelt.org/mtfcivb/showthread.php/16-Authentic-original-speedster-pictures?styleid=1
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 8, 2016
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  21. Never2low
    Joined: Jan 14, 2008
    Posts: 1,124

    Never2low
    Member

    Wow! Great finds Stogy! That's a lot more info than I was able to find.
    I had a helluva time finding a clear pic, let alone any drawings that show the full on frontal view.
    I agree, it is very close with the exception of the emblem, but the last pic doesn't look to have the bead/lip running around the opening, just a more broad radius.
    I did find a second version of the first pic I added, as an advert for Laurel bodied speedsters. Same exact pic.
    [​IMG]
    I'ma keep digging.
     
  22. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 17,574

    Stogy
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    Here is a Fiat racer of the same era...This is a racer by the name of Eddie Hearne.Again uncanny resemblance but this has a crank hole right through it.

    Fiat Racer.jpg
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/auto-racing-1894-1944.380814/page-81

    I'ma keepa diggin too ;)...One thing for sure these are very beautifully crafted go fast cars. Incredible styling and mechanical genius that unquestionably influenced hotrodding.
     
  23. COUPES
    Joined: Feb 24, 2013
    Posts: 171

    COUPES
    Member
    from England

    No M logo but similar looking radiator on the middle car. Like the picture too.
     

    Attached Files:

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  24. lockwoodkustoms
    Joined: Dec 22, 2005
    Posts: 3,910

    lockwoodkustoms
    Member

    This one looks very similar to mine
     
  25. SR100
    Joined: Nov 26, 2013
    Posts: 847

    SR100
    Member

    It strikes me that the car was probably built near New York. The builders would have purchased parts locally to save shipping costs. I suspect that the radiator has never left the NY area. I flipped through the 'M' section of my Beaulieu Encyclopedia of the Automobile (great resource for searches like this, BTW) and found 12 cars made in a 2-state radius between 1917 and 1927. That was my best guess of when that style of radiator would have been made with a honeycomb core (Does anyone know when the honeycomb radiator went out of style?). Searching for photos eliminated all but two.
    I think the radiator is from a Moller, built in Lewiston, Pennsylvania from 1920 to 1922. It was produced primarily for export. This is the best picture I could find:
    [​IMG]
    (There was also a Möller built in Hagerstown, MD. It was not related, but complicates the search.)
    I could not find a picture of the 1922 Mulford (7 produced). Mulford was a well-known racing driver of the era, and his car was said to be sporty, so it could be a possibility.
     
  26. lockwoodkustoms
    Joined: Dec 22, 2005
    Posts: 3,910

    lockwoodkustoms
    Member

    That looks very much like mine :) I just got a thing on my IG from Hemmings saying that it appears to be from a Moller. Now I am hoping to find a better photo of one of these to confirm it. Thanks SR100
     
  27. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 17,574

    Stogy
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    Well its been a interesting journey that may end with a couple of photos...How rare is that Lockwood...That is very rare indeed. I am sure you will incorporate it in a most interesting way even if it is on the wall as a conversation piece. Lots of untitled pics out there so you never know. With SR100's input I gleaned some info on Mulford

    http://www.vanderbiltcupraces.com/blog/article/the_mulford_special_a_roadster_that_saved_a_city

    One thing for sure there was a helluva lot of car stuff going on back then and cameras only captured so much. We're lucky to see as much as we do. I will keep my eyes peeled.
     
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  28. SR100
    Joined: Nov 26, 2013
    Posts: 847

    SR100
    Member

    Ralph Mulford tried entering the car business in 1915, but only two prototypes were built. I found this picture from an old Motor Age. The caption implies that it was a separate project, but I think it is one of the two prototypes.
    Mulford-Whitney Dues Roadster, Motor Age, 12-2-1915.jpg
    He built two cars for his own use around 1917; the roadster in the article Stogy linked, which was essentially a rodded pre-war Opel and a sedan for his wife. He tried the car business again when he retired from racing in 1922, but only five prototypes were built.
     
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  29. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 17,574

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Thanks SR finding anything on his 1922 prototypes is as tough as that radiator/shell. That Moller you posted seems to be a form of boat tail speedster. Was also touted as very good on gas (50 MPG amazing) Easy to see how stuff disappears over time.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2016
  30. lockwoodkustoms
    Joined: Dec 22, 2005
    Posts: 3,910

    lockwoodkustoms
    Member

    I actually too the cap off and looked inside with a flash light and it is super clean in the radiator itself almost as though it was never used. :)
     
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