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Mustang 2 suspensions..

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by straycad, Jan 17, 2009.

  1. straycad
    Joined: Apr 23, 2008
    Posts: 18

    straycad
    Member

    I am putting a mustang 2 front stub in my 47 caddy. Who can you guys recommend? Heidts and fatman are too expensive... the rest don't have one..
    I saw something called "welder series". This looks too flimsy.. Any wisdom to pass along?
     
  2. pasadenahotrod
    Joined: Feb 13, 2007
    Posts: 11,776

    pasadenahotrod
    Member
    from Texas

    Actually what you use of the MII/Pinto/Bobcat is just the crossmember and steering/suspension which is attached to it, and attach same to your own frame rails.
    I'd check the track width of the MII against that of the Cad and see how that compares. Yes, you can expand it by using any number of longer tie rod ends but check it anyway.
    Generally speaking, the Welder Series kits are simply the standard assembled pieces sold in a "you weld it" form, no difference in quality of materials that I have ever heard of.
     
  3. straycad
    Joined: Apr 23, 2008
    Posts: 18

    straycad
    Member

    One website says to use 2" x4" RECTANGLE steel for the frame rails. Is this strong enough? What i mean is the original mustangs had 4 and 6 clyinder engines, and I will have an 8 liter V8 behind this thing.
     
  4. old dirt tracker
    Joined: Sep 20, 2006
    Posts: 1,002

    old dirt tracker
    Member
    from phoenix

    while i am a fan of must 11 and have installed quite a few i really question the idea of one in a car as heavy as a caddy. maybe that why there are not a lot of suppliers.
     

  5. pasadenahotrod
    Joined: Feb 13, 2007
    Posts: 11,776

    pasadenahotrod
    Member
    from Texas

    Actually, I was not in favor of cutting off the frame rails at all; that's why I was wondering at your description of "MMII stub" since the MMII is a unibody and has no stub per se.

    The following. preceding, post about the mass of the Cad being over the MMII weight "limit" has merit as well.

    Have you measured or considered the installation of a 67-68 Camaro/ 68-74 Nova subframe up front? You might find a nice little 74 Nova Custom
    4door sedan like we did that had a practically brand new front end under it with discs, power brakes and steering, A/C, etc. Most 4doors are overlooked as donors for these conversions, 2door/4door hotrod prejudice, I guess, but that ugly old green 74 Custom 4door may be the donor car of choice.
     
  6. 39cent
    Joined: Apr 4, 2006
    Posts: 1,569

    39cent
    Member
    from socal

    Is it really necessary to put in a whole new front suspension? Course i,m old an the Caddys were modern suspensions to me. However they should have a disc brake setup and those are available, alongwith dropped spindles. And add set of good modern tube shocks it will work fine.
     
  7. zman
    Joined: Apr 2, 2001
    Posts: 16,605

    zman
    Member
    from Garner, NC

    so a decent one is to expensive? one with a frame clip to actually fit your car... you get what you pay for...
    the welder series is as beefy as any out there, but you have to weld it together...
    using a regular MII crossmember you'd have to fix the stock frame rails to accept the new crossmember, that's some serious fab right there...


    the stock fronts on those caddies ride well when rebuilt.
     
  8. outlaw256
    Joined: Jun 26, 2008
    Posts: 2,023

    outlaw256
    Member

    we had a customer bring us a ol cad and a 73 nova.cad had been hit in the frong years ago and the body fixed but not the frame and the nova he bought had been hit in the rear.we were closed and he dropped them off with a note that said fix it.we used the nova sub under that ol girl, it took a lot of fab and welding to get that thing under there and still use the cad engine. but when we got done he had a car that rode great and would put the back seat passenger in the front when he hit the brakes. 2 yrs later he got hit in the side by a drunk driver that it killed on the spot(import car)he went home that nite with a sore let a some cuts from flying glass. damn them ol cads were tough!anyway i think the nova sub is better suited for that big girl, though the must. 2 front end can be used.
     
  9. NAIRB
    Joined: Jan 31, 2007
    Posts: 7

    NAIRB
    Member

    A lot of cars in the late 40's, early and mid 50's had independent suspensions with "funky" frame buckets for the springs, etc, making it tough to graft a Mustang 2 onto it. These cars (like a 49 Ford or Merc) require a stub or rails, etc.

    I am unfamiliar with the 48 Caddy frame, but my guess would be that it's got a funky frame shape.

    If you want to do IFS on it, you might consider a Heidt's universal cross member. There are two models, one of them that gives you a finished track width of 60" and the other gives you a 56" track width. I've looked at a few pics of a Caddy frame and it looks like the factory crossmember could be removed easy enough, then you would need to fab some straight rails onto the existing frame and weld on a universal cross member. My guess is that you would probably need the wide cross member for the big caddy. You can get as much as 62" of track width with alot of the GM disc brake kits.

    You'll have around 2 g's in the deal when you're finished, if you use good tubular arms.
     
  10. chad
    Joined: Jun 22, 2004
    Posts: 1,012

    chad
    Member

    I have used 4 welder series crossmembers...they are excellent...I can assure you they are 10 time better than anything Fatman has....
     
  11. HRK-hotrods
    Joined: Sep 26, 2007
    Posts: 922

    HRK-hotrods
    Member

    No need for all this MII shit... Too light for your car.

    Rebuild the stock frontend, they ride, well, like a Cadillac. Then IF you must have disc brakes on it, try THIS BOLT ON KIT. StreetRodder did an install a few months back on one of the No Limit kits and it looked nice.
     
  12. skidsteer
    Joined: Mar 19, 2007
    Posts: 1,251

    skidsteer
    Member

    If you cut the frame off the Caddy, you won't have any trouble selling it to somebody who wants to put it on THEIR car......I'm with the majority on this, update the original suspension and brakes, but keep the frame.
     
  13. Ole Pork
    Joined: Sep 4, 2006
    Posts: 581

    Ole Pork
    Member

    Yeah man, I gotta agree, the 'Stang front end just ain't made for that weight. As Pasadenahotrod pointed out, a nova stub would be the way to go. Dollar wise, you get p.s. , p.b. , discs, and an easier fab. Them original Caddy front ends were hard to beat, but if you insist on change, that would be my choice. Good luck...................
     
  14. Hi!
    Joined: Oct 4, 2006
    Posts: 731

    Hi!
    Member
    from SoCal

    Ive done m11 and nova clips. The m11 might be a little light for the caddy and will have to make frame rails.
    Ive done the nova/camaro clips and there good for a heavier car.( dont limit yourself to just nova, you can run caprice, chevelle or impala for example). The geometry is done for you and all you have to do is weld to the frame ( sounds easy) and can get parts anywhere.
     
  15. flynbrian48
    Joined: Mar 10, 2008
    Posts: 7,348

    flynbrian48
    Member

    A Mustang II based suspension WAY TO LIGHTWEIGHT for that Caddy, despite what anybody says about wieght distribution and and all. I've put full size GM frame clips under my '48 Pontiac convert and my '51 Pontiac wagon, using early 90's Caprice/Roadmaster/Fleetwood parts. Both fit the early frames well, give great handling and ride characteristics, and look good. They're slightly wider than the A body clips, but I like the tires pushed out a little further.

    In addition, you get BIG brakes, 5 on 5 bolt pattern, and something designed and built to go under a 4,000 lb+ car. It's easy to get advice from somebody who hasn't done one, but I've been there, done that, and I've got the T-shirt. You can buy a nice running and driving one of these for less than 2K all day long, and most wagons come with Posi rear, and use the entire LS1/4L60 drivetrain, wiring harness, frame clip, and the seats, if they're still OK, fit into late 40's GM cars like they were made for 'em. A friend of mines son is dropping a 41 Olds sedan on a complete Caprice chassis and floor pan.

    I'll add that you can get 'em pretty low with this set up, depite the wide track. The wagon is so low I have to run it up on 2x6's to get a floor jack under the front crossmember, with 225/75R 15's all the way around. I have no tire/fender interference with either car. Oh, and they come with ABS brakes too if you have the whole car to cannablilize...

    Don't even think about Mustang stuff.

    Brian
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 17, 2009
  16. I am starting to enjoy being the cynical asshole. But if the thought of spending a few thousand dollars on for an entirely new front suspension on something like a '47 Cad is "too expensive", seriously, you may want to consider another hobby. Those front suspensions you mentioned are actually on the VERY CHEAP end of the spectrum.

    This is an expensive hobby, even cheap builds are not free. Quality takes time and money. I'm not sure I would do a MII on that car either for other reasons than stated here as there are plenty of other viable alternatives including just leaving it alone. That's just my professional opinion speaking.

    Your primary concerns should be: rock solid steering and brakes.
     
  17. Hi!
    Joined: Oct 4, 2006
    Posts: 731

    Hi!
    Member
    from SoCal

    For what its worth. Ive done the disc brake kit, Ive adapted gm power steering on those frames, Ive made motor mounts for SBC :eek:and the stock front suspension drove and handled well.
    So ,unless youve got in your head to change it or its a total pile of a front end. I would say leave it alone.
     
  18. KustomF100
    Joined: Dec 26, 2003
    Posts: 371

    KustomF100
    Member
    from Joliet, IL

    The rack and pinion units made for the Mustang II are really only strong enough for a vehicle up to about 3000lbs. I may be wrong, but the heaviest vehicle I know of with a factory rack is a Dodge Dakota pickup, and that rack is alot beefier than a Mustang II.

    I would certainly be considering the late model Impala or camaro stub.
     
  19. flynbrian48
    Joined: Mar 10, 2008
    Posts: 7,348

    flynbrian48
    Member

    And I thought I was the only cynic here :rolleyes:. Brakes and steering good, bad brakes and no power steering, bad.
     
  20. The main reason people use the M2 is to add IFS under cars that didnt have it and because it is Cheap. The Caddy you have has IFS. All you need to do is add disc's and power steering and you have a better suspension than any M2 that will survive real world driving without folding when you hit a pot-hole
     
  21. bigtumtum
    Joined: Jul 2, 2008
    Posts: 654

    bigtumtum
    Member


    Thank You Scott! i was already wondering why should he want that when he already has a IFS... a disc update and powersteering is not so expansive... :D
     
  22. 39cent
    Joined: Apr 4, 2006
    Posts: 1,569

    39cent
    Member
    from socal

    ya know thing is that I see people putting whole new front ends on everything these days, and its like they have to do it because everybody does it. The original Idea was to improve on the old straight axle cars, and the oddball front ends like the old Studes and Nash,s and so on that were hard to rebuild. Also everybody wanted to go to ball joints, and get away from those ol king pin jobs. Well if people would stop and think about it some of these old independant front ends are really better than the new stuff, at the very least they are a lot stronger. Remembr the old sayings, 'It rides like a Caddy' or a Buick? In acuality the GM frames from the 30,s to the 50,s were works of art they had huge frames which were continuos and trianglulated all the way to the front end in long side frame rails and you want to cut them off? and add a 'STUB'? So it isnt something that has to be done, today they still make king pin,and straight axle vehicles, for heavy duty work. If you want to lower it way down and have newer suspensions I say just get a whole modern frame and put it under your car, that does it all.- -- - just my oldtimers rant
     
  23. GaryM
    Joined: Mar 27, 2008
    Posts: 215

    GaryM
    Member

    We had the front end rebuilt on our 59 Cad. Added a late model PS box. The original front end wandered like an old goat; the rebuilt one tracks as true as a string and rides like a cloud.
    In the process of adding disc brakes now. No need for a stub; would never consider a MII for this application.
    Gary
     
  24. I dont want the Mustang II front-end on the end of my other wise stock model A frame that I do want. Its chrome, complete w brakes, lines, rack, not new but nice.

    Pm with some thing you want/have to trade. early hemi stuff, blower stuff, magnesium stuff, dropped axle stuff, 31 vicky stuff, harley stuff, whatcha got
     
  25. straycad
    Joined: Apr 23, 2008
    Posts: 18

    straycad
    Member

    I think that I failed to mention that I searched hi and low for a disc brake conversion for the stock front end( including the HAMB) and found nothing.(at that time ) I had a 46 chevy fleetline aero that had a similar suspension, and it was just plain dangerous. disc brakes just made it bearable. I had in stock a 96' impala SS front and rear subframe from a wrecked car. The rear went in flawlessly. Frustrated with trans-am and nova subs being tight for the cad motor, I cut the caddy clip, and stubbed in the impala front frame. the track width is perfect. even the motor squeezes in.. But getting a steering box to fit between the crossmember and the radiator support is next to impossible. I even tore apart rack and pinion sectors to fab something feasable.

    If only the impala had Rear steering instead of in front. This is my biggest problem with GM stubs..
     
  26. bigtumtum
    Joined: Jul 2, 2008
    Posts: 654

    bigtumtum
    Member

    Did you try contact http://www.scarebird.com/ he can make a lot of things!! :D
     
  27. bigtumtum
    Joined: Jul 2, 2008
    Posts: 654

    bigtumtum
    Member

    FYI scarebirds is making old caddys disc converts sets...
    also 40's caddys here is a example for 1960's caddys (he didnt have pics for 1940's caddy's)


    [​IMG]

    This is what we started with, a 1967 Sedan DeVille in a boneyard. Note how the brakeline is to the rear of the spindle. We tested with the original rims; did not work, so you will need 1971 or newer rims

    [​IMG]

    Chock up the rear wheels. Crack loose the front lugs, then jack up front and secure with jackstands (no cement blocks or other such tomfoolery). Remove wheels. Spray hardline to flexline nut with a good penetrant oil, such as Kano Lab's Aerokroil. Remove drum. Clean off stub of grease. Undo brakeline nut with a proper flare wrench, then remove clip so flex line is flopping around. Remove upper drum backing plate attachment bolt and lower bolts, then pull off drum assy. Clean off spindle well.

    [​IMG]

    Mount new bracket on spindle as shown, with opening to the front. Use supplied upper bolt and lockwasher, and reuse lower bolts or replace if too short or in bad condition with Grade 8 fasteners. Dive out inner bearing cup with a steel rod. Clean out pocket, then insert supplied spacer and drive cup back in with supplied tool. Test fit rotor with bearings dry on spindle. Note whether or not rotor interfers with steering crossarm. If so, remove rotors and chamfer inner surface on a lathe as shown to clear.

    [​IMG]

    Once the rotors are verified to fit, pack bearings with grease, install inner bearing and seal in rotor. Mount rotor and outer nut with hardware, tighten to spec. Wash hands. Wipe rotor down with alcohol or laquer thinner. Assemble caliper, we recommend the softest pads you can get, such as NAPA's Tru-Stop organic pads for best day-to-day driving experience (save the ceramics for the track). Install caliper on bracket, with bleed screws facing up.

    [​IMG]

    The 67 we grabbed the spindle off had the hydraulic hardlines to the rear, but a 69 we saw (factory disc car) had them to the front. So I recommend you test route your hoses with a piece of fuel line to find the ideal length. Note that our 79 Eldo hose mounting position - you may need to file the nose a bit to get it to sit as such.

    Once you dope out how you wish the lines to run, install hoses at frame with clip, and reattach hardline. Attach hose to caliper with banjo bolt, with a copper crush washer on both sides of hose. Tighten to 30 ft-lbs.

    We recommend using a disc two-chamber master, but some have used the stock single drum unit with success. We suggest an adjustable proportioning valve insalled in the line going to the rear. Gravity bleed system and test.

    Reinstall wheels, lower car. Test system carefully, then use the 30-30-30 method to bed in pads: 30 gentle stops from 30 mph, with 30 second cooling between stops. Allow to cool then enjoy.

    Parts Needed:

    Rotors, Bearings, Seals, dustcap: 1971-76 Cadillac RWD

    Calipers: 1990-2002 Chevrolet AstroVan AWD

    Hoses: 15" 1979 Seville front, 17" 1982 Eldorado front (bracket needs removal)
     
  28. WelderSeries
    Joined: Sep 20, 2007
    Posts: 766

    WelderSeries
    Alliance Vendor

    Thanks for all the kind words about our kits. I thought I should mention that they are available fully welded too.

    elpolacko knows his stuff... there's lots of great information here.
     
  29. straycad
    Joined: Apr 23, 2008
    Posts: 18

    straycad
    Member

    speaking of cynical.. Not everyone wants to spend a "few thousand" with Boyd coddington, or chip foose, when you can get the same engineering for way less. Not all cars are for show. Some are built to be driven, alot. I have built alot of "leave it alone " factory front suspensions. What you get is That years technology, just rebuilt.
     
  30. straycad
    Joined: Apr 23, 2008
    Posts: 18

    straycad
    Member

    I now know the welder series is kick ass. I just saw one in a friends car, and he has another kit ready for assembly for his 37 chev pickup. Nice stuff.
     

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