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Muncie experts I got a ????

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by junk runner jr, Nov 12, 2008.

  1. junk runner jr
    Joined: Dec 21, 2001
    Posts: 456

    junk runner jr
    Member

    We have a Muncie in my dads T but it just does not feel right. First gear in this thing feels very high, very little spread between ist and second. We have to slip the clutch alot to keep from stalling.

    I was discussing the issue with a friend and mentioned I thought the tranny had been apart but possibly was re assembled with the wrong parts.

    His exact words

    "I know something about that but I can't remember it."

    After a few minutes of pondering he thought he rememberd back in the day when he was breaking Muncies pretty regularly that it is possible to switch first and reverse by accident. Does any body have experience with this?

    Thanks
     
  2. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 51,901

    squirrel
    Member

    2.20 first gear is like that....some guys paid extra for the feature! Car needs a steep rearend gear ratio.

    I don't know of any way to get less ratio with reverse, usually reverse is steeper than first.

    Also I don't know of any way to change the individual gear ratios, because the cluster gear has all the ratios built into it as a set.
     
  3. junk runner jr
    Joined: Dec 21, 2001
    Posts: 456

    junk runner jr
    Member

    Will the numbers tell us if this tranny was set up with the 2.20 first gear?
     
  4. GassersGarage
    Joined: Jul 1, 2007
    Posts: 4,727

    GassersGarage
    Member

    What rearend gears do you have? I had a muncie and my rearend gears were 3.08. I had to slip the clutch alot. I ended up going to a Richmond 6 spd with a 3:27 first gear. My other car has a muncie with 3:55 gears, which works OK.
     

  5. iowaboy
    Joined: Jun 18, 2007
    Posts: 17

    iowaboy
    Member
    from Iowa

    Called a "Close Ratio" Muncie, better for drag racing!
     
  6. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 51,901

    squirrel
    Member

    I don't recall if there are numbers, but you could do a cheezy experiment...jack up the car and put it on stands, put it in first, turn the engine over by hand and count exactly how many turns of the engine it takes to get the drive shaft to turn exactly once. If it takes 2.2 turns of the engine, it's a 2.20 first ratio. If it takes 2.5 turns, it's a 2.54 (or whatever it is) ratio trans.
     
  7. junk runner jr
    Joined: Dec 21, 2001
    Posts: 456

    junk runner jr
    Member

    The rear is a 3.48. We do not have a tach installed yet but by ear there really is no noticable difference between 1st and 2nd. Is the close ratio realy that close. I will try turning the engine over and count the revs of the drive shaft to verify. We realy don't want to have to go to a lower gear in the rear. We are kinda thinking of going with a T-5. I need to start doing some research there. The t-5 may give us a better shifter placement any way.
     
  8. chopolds
    Joined: Oct 22, 2001
    Posts: 6,054

    chopolds
    Member
    from howell, nj
    1. Kustom Painters

    I'd ask around and see if you can trade it out for a "wide ratio" Muncie. Same dimensions, shifter, input and output. Yours is probably more desireable for the muscle car group.
     
  9. brownies72
    Joined: May 1, 2008
    Posts: 16

    brownies72
    Member

    the numbers on the trans should tell you the ratio it sounds like a 220 close ratio the wide ratio has a 253 first gear to get you rolling better.
     
  10. junk runner jr
    Joined: Dec 21, 2001
    Posts: 456

    junk runner jr
    Member

    Anybody know what numbers would denote a wide ratio.
     
  11. Alf
    Joined: Sep 6, 2006
    Posts: 143

    Alf
    Member

    Look for numbers on the side of the case where the halves meet.

    A-M20-wide ratio 2.56 first gear
    B-M21-close ratio 2.20 first gear
    C-M22-close ratio/straighter cut gears 2.20 first gear

    This of course will only be true if the correct internals are in the correct case.
     
  12. HMMMM. That "T" shouldn't weigh much. So close, or wide ratio shouldn't be an issue in my opinion. R U going through all the gears, or just 1st and 2nd? I'm wondering if this trans is new to the car and the shift linkage has been switched around? Just a thought. Do ANY of the gear choices afford you to take off without excessive clutch slipping? I know I'm reaching, but as I said, that "T" shouldn't weigh enough to need excessive clutch slipping with any rear ratio.
     
  13. Look for rings on input shaft



    Year 1963-1965 Type: M20 Rings: None Ratio: 2.56 / 1.91 / 1.48 / 1.00 / 3.16</PRE>
    Year 1966-1974 Type: M20 Rings: Two Ratio: 2.52 / 1.88 / 1.46 / 1.00 / 3.11</PRE>
    Year 1963-1974 Type: M21 Rings: One Ratio: 2.20 / 1.64 / 1.28 / 1.00 / 2.27</PRE>
    Year 1967-1974 Type: M22 Rings: None Ratio: 2.20 / 1.64 / 1.28 / 1.00 / 2.27</PRE>
     
  14. 283nova
    Joined: Jun 5, 2008
    Posts: 222

    283nova
    Member
    from spokane,wa

    you should sell it to me it'll work with my 5:13's that are going in :D
     
  15. junk runner jr
    Joined: Dec 21, 2001
    Posts: 456

    junk runner jr
    Member

    Ill keep you posted.
     
  16. junk runner jr
    Joined: Dec 21, 2001
    Posts: 456

    junk runner jr
    Member

    thanks Groucho,

    The tranny is new to the car... Well the whole car is new for that matter, we just got in on the road. It does go through all the gears. We did fight the linkage and the clutch for a few days initially but we think thats all ironed out. We are gonna pull the tranny soon and check the input shaft.
     
  17. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 51,901

    squirrel
    Member

    How tall are the rear tires? if they're huge by large, then you probably just need more gear.
     
  18. junk runner jr
    Joined: Dec 21, 2001
    Posts: 456

    junk runner jr
    Member

    Good point I was just on the phone discussing that with my dad. The tires are about 30" tall so yes they are pretty tall.
     
  19. fab32
    Joined: May 14, 2002
    Posts: 13,985

    fab32
    Member Emeritus

    You've got the close rario Muncie (2.20 low). It works best with 3.73 gears or lower (higher numerically). The wide ratio (M-20) with a 2.54 low is a better choice for street driving and highway gears.

    Frank
     
  20. Man, I'm sorry, but I still say 3.48 gears and a 30" tire is nothing in that light of a car to have problems slipping the clutch with ANY 4-speed's 1st gear ratio. I sure wish I was there.
     
  21. 3Mike6
    Joined: Jan 2, 2007
    Posts: 704

    3Mike6
    Member

    I agree,

    Should definitely get a drop from 1-2 as well, guessing 600-700rpms at 3K, should be easily noticed/felt.



    Is there a Tach or speedo hooked up to the car?
     
  22. Russco
    Joined: Nov 27, 2005
    Posts: 4,272

    Russco
    Member
    from Central IL

    I agree with Groucho too. I can take off in 3rd gear fairly easily in mine with 3.42 and
    29" tires.
     
  23. rouye56wingnut
    Joined: Jan 14, 2008
    Posts: 352

    rouye56wingnut
    Member
    from mn.

    The way you can tell what ratio you have is if the cluster shaft is 7/8 inch and the input shaft has 2 grooves around the 11 splines you have a 2.56 wide ratio trans recomended to be used with 3.55 or under rear ratios.If you have a 7/8 cluster with no lines around the 11 splines then you have a 2.20 close ratio trans recomended to use with 3.73 or greater rear ratio.If you have a 1" cluster with 2 grooves around the input then you have a 2.52 wide ratio and if you have a 1" cluster with 1 groove on the input then you have a 2.20 close ratio.There are some exceptions with after market gears or some 67 68 rock crusher m-22 small case trans but those would have a 1" cluster and no lines around the input.I wont get into the 70 and later ones with the longer tail and larger turbo 400 type slip yolk unless someone wants to know.
     
  24. PS-Wnen I'd be lazy, I'd take off in my 32 in second gear. 3.00 reAR, AND 29" TALL TIRE. hARDLY ANY CLUTCH SLIPPING TO GET MOVING. i DID THAT PROLLY 30&#37; OF THE TIME. oops I HITmy cap locK BUTTON. Whiskey anyone?
     
  25. junk runner jr
    Joined: Dec 21, 2001
    Posts: 456

    junk runner jr
    Member

    No you don't. It's supposed to snow on Saturday

    I just need to yank this thing on saturday to see what I have got for sure.
     
  26. dave lewis
    Joined: Dec 12, 2006
    Posts: 1,376

    dave lewis
    Member
    from Nampa ID

    Ok, since you are going to pull it anyway...
    Put it in 1st gear. mark the input shaft. make a matching mark on the bearing retainer.mark the output shaft and tailhousing......Turn the output shaft 10 turns.
    Count the number of times the input shaft turns..22 + 2 teeth = 2.20 , and 25+2 teeth=2.54.. (This is very precise with a 10 spline input, you just have to eyeball if it is some other spline count )
    works for any trans , any gear..
    good luck
    Dave
     
  27. junk runner jr
    Joined: Dec 21, 2001
    Posts: 456

    junk runner jr
    Member

    Ok now I am realy baffled. I yanked the tranny and verified we have a Wide Ratio with the 2.54 first gear. You would think that would be plenty low... I guess the next step is to pull the cover on the rear end and verify the gear there. I was pretty sure we checked it before but that may have been the rear in my roadster we checked.

    We are leaning toward changing it out for a T-5. If we use an s-10 tail shaft it would give us a much better shifter position any way.

    Thanks for the help.
     
  28. Russco
    Joined: Nov 27, 2005
    Posts: 4,272

    Russco
    Member
    from Central IL

    You never said what motor your running, maybe something in the motor or tune like a really big cam or timing issue possibly?
     
  29. junk runner jr
    Joined: Dec 21, 2001
    Posts: 456

    junk runner jr
    Member

    The motor is a small block Chevy and yes its got a realy BIG cam. It sounds nasty but not all that much bite.
     
  30. junk runner jr
    Joined: Dec 21, 2001
    Posts: 456

    junk runner jr
    Member

    I finnaly got around to pulling the cover on the rear end to confirm the gear set yesterday.

    "Well I'll be"

    The thing is a 2:73 gear set. I think I found my answer. Dad stopped by Jegs and picked up a 3:42 ring and pinion. This should solve the problem.

    I am shocked the rear had a 2:73 though, I can't figure out why Chevy would have put that high of a gear in an S-10.
     

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