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Muncie 4 speed vs Saginaw 4 speed?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by ssk875, Jan 18, 2012.

  1. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 11,625

    Atwater Mike
    Member

    How about the old Torrington Bearing trick on the Saginaw (in place of the bushings)
    Said to have made a big difference in longevity.
     
    HiHelix likes this.
  2. jimmy six
    Joined: Mar 21, 2006
    Posts: 14,799

    jimmy six
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Mitchell Machine cast his own aluminum Saginaw cases primarily for short dirt track use. We use one with lightened gears in 3000# car. Ours is based on the 3sp case and he'll for stout..
     
  3. HiHelix
    Joined: Dec 20, 2015
    Posts: 381

    HiHelix
    Member

    when it comes to this subject cost is a huge factor in desicion. A new after market t-10 is about 1000 bux plus clutch assy and add a bell housing and whatever levers and linkage you needs.... After market muncies are about 2300 fully done ...I have seen a couple m21s on ebay .. m22 command the most... what is the budget?:
     
  4. HiHelix
    Joined: Dec 20, 2015
    Posts: 381

    HiHelix
    Member

    I will tell you this... this is an area that you need to buy the strongest thing you can afford that will match the power you make.
     
    mike in tucson likes this.
  5. manyolcars
    Joined: Mar 30, 2001
    Posts: 9,176

    manyolcars

    Summit has six listing for $1998. Whats the difference in them?
     
  6. Kerrynzl
    Joined: Jun 20, 2010
    Posts: 2,906

    Kerrynzl
    Member

    Muncie 1st or ...................... T5

    T5's dont need a shifter just a lever so you can deduct that from the overall cost
     
  7. I've run both Muncies and saginaws in my cars. If the O/P has a light car with street tires and a small block, a saginaw in good condition with a good Hurst shifter should do just fine. As was said earlier, the saginaws offer a better choice of gearing. I used a vega trans [saginaw] with the 3.50 [or 3.40 depending on who your talking to] first gear. This low gear allowed me to use a high [2.29 ratio] rear axle gear and the car was super driveable with a 406 SBC and a 12 inch clutch. I used a brand new [yard sale,,,$5] Hurst 3 speed synchro loc shifter with a 4 speed lever and arm kit from Hurst and I welded another Hurst handle to the reverse shift lever...
    I pounded on this car...[3300 lb '50 chevy sedan delivery] swore it picked the left front tire on 2nd gear shifts. Eventually the puny 10 bolt rear blew.
    All that said, I sold off all my saginaws and T-5s to buy a Muncie 4 speed for my present project just for the added assurance I wouldn't blow a trans. I believe I'd have to pull the motor/trans to change a transmission.
    I've used Muncies in all my corvettes, GTOs, 57 Pontiacs [3500 lbs] with no problems except a syncro problem one time.
    PS......in the saginaws, the reverse idler is engaged all the time the car is moving....I wore one out and the entire trans has to be disassembled to get it out of the bottom of the case..took me the better part of a day to do the entire job.
     
    lawman likes this.
  8. I'm using an M20 in my Ford with a 3.70 rear and it moves nicely. I like the wide ratio and 2.56 first gear. Saginaws behind V8 equipped cars are better than those that came with the Vegas and Monzas. I believe in spending my $$ once, hence I went with the Muncie.
     
  9. slowmotion
    Joined: Nov 21, 2011
    Posts: 3,330

    slowmotion
    Member

    I'd have no problem using a Saginaw in a mild motored hotrod. As long as you don't BEAT on it. The last Muncie I bought I payed $175 WITH a Hurst shifter. Put it in a '62 Impala, them was the days...:D
    Really, if you see any spirited shenanigans in your future, step up to the Muncie. No sense doing it twice.
     
    lawman and saltflats like this.
  10. I think that was some guy in Florida up until a few years ago. He used some specially hardened parts made in Italy. 4 th. gear was an "overdrive" .85 I think. $2600. He promised me it would still howl like the original Muncie. He retired before I could get that kind of scratch up.
     
  11. 61wingedwagon
    Joined: Jun 30, 2009
    Posts: 14

    61wingedwagon
    Member

    How can you tell which ratio a trans has ?
     
  12. Deuces
    Joined: Nov 3, 2009
    Posts: 23,753

    Deuces

    You can't!!!!
    Sold one for 400 sheckles to a guy with a "66 big block Vette some years back...
    I should have kept it....:(
     
  13. According to the website below...

    http://www.700r4transmissionhq.com/saginaw-4-speed-identification/

    Saginaw 4 speed identification- figuring out the gearing
    I’m not a big restoration guy. I don’t look for numbers matching pieces for my vehicles. So this way is going to help you narrow down exactly what kind of saginaw that you may have.

    Count the rings: There are rings around the input shaft that will help you determine the gearing in the transmission itself. According to camaros.net, they are as follows:

    • No lines on the input shaft- First 2.84, Second 2.01, Third 1.34, Fourth, 1.00
    • 1 Line- First 2.54, Second 1.84, Third 1.44, Fourth, 1.00
    • 1 Line- First 2.54, Second 1.84, Third 1.32, Fourth, 1.00 <— Much less common
    • 2 Line- First 3.11, Second 2.20, Third 1.47, Fourth, 1.00
    • 3 Line- First 3.50, Second 2.46, Third 1.65, Fourth, 1.00
     
  14. Kan Kustom
    Joined: Jul 20, 2009
    Posts: 2,739

    Kan Kustom
    Member

    Watching this one because I like 4 speeds.
     
  15. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 19,138

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    Hey Bob, you may know this.
    A little known fact is the extremely rare (6 or 7) 1967 L79 (325 hp) engine optioned Nova used a Saginaw 4 speed whereas the 66 was a Muncie (if ordered), three speeds were standard.
    The oddest part is the 67 engine is nearly identical to the 66 version, same "151" cam, forged 11-1 compression pistons, 2.02 heads, etc.
    These cars had the cast iron intake and Q-jet carb. which is one reason for the 25 HP difference. Oh and the 67's didn't get the 12 bolt rear end either, odd, odd, odd!

     
    LOU WELLS and bobss396 like this.
  16. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 19,138

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    That "count the rings" deal only works if the input shaft that the trans was married with at the factory is still in place.
     
    61wingedwagon and lurker mick like this.
  17. The Saginaws used to be cheap and plentiful 30 years ago when the yards were full of Vegas and Monzas. The lowest first gear ratio Saginaws were found in Vegas. A lot of people put them in pickups because of that low first gear ratio. The Vega 4 banger didn't have enough power to hurt a transmission, and they had the low first gear ratio because the Vega 4 needed all the help it could get to get the car moving.
     
  18. metlmunchr
    Joined: Jan 16, 2010
    Posts: 861

    metlmunchr
    Member

    Its funny to look thru various classified listings on ebay and elsewhere and note all the chevys where the owner claims it has a M22 transmission. You'd think a person just went to the junkyard back then and picked one off the rock crusher tree.

    In reality, Chevy built 157,000 Corvettes between 66 and 71, the years when the M22 was available. And only 370 of those cars came with an M22. I never have looked at the numbers for Chevelles or Camaros, but it'd be a safe assumption the percentages of M22's in those are far less since the bulk of either one didn't come with any sort of performance engine.

    According to an article I read several years ago on Muncie transmissions, the total production of M22's amounted to less than one in one thousand of all Muncies produced. I'm old enough that I was fooling around with Camaros and Chevelles and Vettes regularly when the rock crushers were available, and I've never laid eyes on a single one to this day.
     
    bobss396 and lawman like this.
  19. 327Eric
    Joined: May 9, 2008
    Posts: 2,116

    327Eric
    Member

    I put a saginaw behind a 427 in my 59 Elcamino, and built up a pile of spares, none cost more than 50 bucks. Ten years later, the 427 is gone, the original rear end was destroyed, and the same 50 dollar saginaw is still in it. I gave away all the spares when I moved.
     
    lawman likes this.
  20. Wouldn't it require a specific cluster gear to work properly with a given number of teeth on the clutch gear? Or are you saying that any clutch gear could be used with any cluster gear? :confused:
     
  21. Ghost28
    Joined: Nov 23, 2008
    Posts: 3,200

    Ghost28
    Member

    Saginaw's are a light duty trans. m20 muncie wide ratio is fair. m21 close ratio is a good performance, but the muncie m22 close ratio is the rock crusher and almost indestructable. Most of these have the lighter aluminum case. Most if not all the borg t1o's were strong and had cast iron cases.
     
  22. Kerrynzl
    Joined: Jun 20, 2010
    Posts: 2,906

    Kerrynzl
    Member

    M20's and M21's use the same 1st,2nd,and 3rd gears. What they did was gear the cluster down for the M20 to increase the gap between 3rd and 4th.
    The "rev spread" in the lower 3 gears is the same on both gearboxes.

    You can convert them over either way with an input and cluster swap.
     
  23. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 19,138

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon




    Nope
    Clay, my articulation on the subject apparently is a bit rusty, I should have said replacement input shafts didn't always have the identification rings as did the production pieces.

    These "experts" from past HAMB discussions may clear things up, not sure.
    Like they say; not everything you read on the internet is true.

    https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/muncie-identification.375443/
     
  24. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 19,138

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

  25. lostone
    Joined: Oct 13, 2013
    Posts: 2,820

    lostone
    Member
    from kansas

    Had a m22 in my 66 GTO (not original) & I never had any problems with it but a good friend of mine had a 68 firebird that I built a very healthy 400 poncho for and that thing was hell on his m22. Keep breaking ears of the cases, put in a super T10 & 20 yrs later still no problems.
     
  26. Deuces
    Joined: Nov 3, 2009
    Posts: 23,753

    Deuces

    I love the Muncie 4-speed trans... Only if it has a Hurst shifter and linkage....;) post-4885-0-30469500-1407518957.jpg
     
    bobss396, Finn Jensen and wvenfield like this.
  27. bowie
    Joined: Jul 27, 2011
    Posts: 3,098

    bowie
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

  28. JOECOOL
    Joined: Jan 13, 2004
    Posts: 2,771

    JOECOOL
    Member

    I have a saginaw behind my 200 h.p. 283 . It works better than my Muncie because its 3;50 low and the Muncie is 2;20 . Listen to the people ,if your going to beat on it or run high H.P. buy the Muncie . If you just like shifting gears the saginaw is fine.
     
  29. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 19,138

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    Roger that!
    This is NOT a Saginaw.
    Sorry about the body that's wrapped around it.


    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16FRhHpqxLE&ved=0ahUKEwjEoYnftdvXAhULjVQKHR83AhoQtwIIMjAE&usg=AOvVaw2I3GhX7qTC65Z_E0SlG9Bs
     
  30. A Boner
    Joined: Dec 25, 2004
    Posts: 7,419

    A Boner
    Member

    Where does the T-5 fit strength wise, can I assume it is weaker than the Saginaw 4spd.?
     

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