Technical MOTOR, flathead build ... tips tricks???

so im thinking about rebuilding my 40 ford flathead. i didnt see a full build-up in the tec-o-matic. ive got a bunch of books to read up on. but im woundering, anybody got their own tips or tricks, or things that make you say "i wish i had......."

 

where's AV8 when you really need him? BTTT

 

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where's AV8 when you really need him? BTTT

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Probably outside polishing his truck for the trip to Bonneville.

 

bttt

 

horsepower TV had a show on yesterday about building a flathead, 250 or so horsepower 305 CID it had when they were done

looked pretty pricey though

 

Hey Man,

Here's a tip - have lots of money handy. I'm looking at rebuilding mine and the prices are silly for parts and things like that. There was an awesom post a little while ago on a guy who wanted to do a quick ring job and valve lap. Do a search and watch how his total cost estimate clicks over from post to post like some sort of Saving Private Ryan body count.

How serious a rebuild you going? Cam? Duals? or mostly stock?

Danny

 

this is my 2nd BTTT,maybe you need to start a new post that will catch the eye more,cuz this one ain't getting the action.i suggest a new title,like "I love flatheads" or "I HATE flatheads"

 

zgears: If Mike were here, probably one of the things he would recommend (and he makes reference to it in his and Vern's book) is to balance it. Got me seriously considering doing it as I plan to have my car for a LONG time and balancing definitely adds years to a flattie's life. If you don't have their book you should check it out. Good stuff in the engine building section (and everywhere else for that matter!) Regards, Dave.

 

I have no original tips or tricks - everything I've ever done I read somewhere - read that list of books you probably saw in one of the other posts (if you didn't see it, do a search for flathead - it was probably w/in the last month - 6 wks)

Prepare to spend more money & time than you would for a SBC.

 

heres the motor

 

Buy the valve spring tool. It's worth the $$.

 

Get yourself to Rumble Seat's Tips.

http://www.flatheadv8.org/rumblest/intro.htm

It is possible that you may have to join MSN's flathead site before viewing, but maybe not. If you need to join the MSN site, go to:

Edit by Grimlok: Jim and everyone - I don't think you have to join that site, so I took out the long link you had - it made this post really hard to read - sorry. I didn't want to overstep but I thought it helped the post.

 

that sites a great source of info...

 

av8's been workinin on Tardel's new catalog and shaping up a couple of French blocks. Not even much time for the F-1 right now.

I just re-read the two-part how-to I did with Vern for American Rodder abut 10 years ago and it's still mostly good; there are some new items on the market now, plus some that have gotten very pricey. Also, I've learned a great deal in the interim and can probably better interpret and convey what Vern had to say, so if you'll be patient I'll give the two pieces a quick edit and update and post them later, maybe one of them this evening.

With the flathead expertise available to the HAMB now, this should develop into an interesting and valuable thread.

 

NICE! I am gonna stayed glued to this thread as I am ass deep in tearing down my flattie for a rebuild.

 

Got into this with some of the oldfarts at cruise night tuesday. They were talking about stuff like plumbing the manifold heat crossover into extra exhaust pipes to cut down on the heat & backpressure at the shared center exhaust ports. Fun stuff when you get these guys going. Old Salt Farts didn't miss much...

 

av8, I look forward to seeing the info that you have, and when you get finished with the Tardel catalog can you post info on how to get it too. Thanks, Tim

 

This two-part how-to about building a strong streetable flathead appeared in American Rodder over 11 years ago. The project was a big eye-opener for me; it planted the seed for building Bluey and writing the book about that wonderful adventure. I had been a SBC advocate since 1955 when my parents gave me a big attaboy for graduating high school with good grades and them not having to pick me up at the police station late at night, even once, in spite of my hot-roddedness. For keeping my nose clean, and their names out of the local newspaper, I was given a new ’55 Chevy BelAir two-door post with a 265 V8, the downstroke all paid (one-third the selling price at the time), and a GMAC payment book with 24 stubs for $60 per month. I was off and running, no longer haunted by the flathead problems that plagued me and most of my pals with little to no expert guidance in our little town.

Like the many naysayers on this board, I regarded flatheads as historically significant, but hardly worth going back in time to do much more than read about them. We had our jigglers and cammers and they were certainly enough. Then I met Tardel, jumped into the handbasket, punched the button marked “HELL,” and embarked on what may well be the greatest, most fun time of my life! I can’t commit because it’s not over yet.

Here, then, is the first segment of the flathead build article.

Mike Bishop



SHOP TIME

A Flathead for the Road
PART ONE

Building a reliable replacement for that tired old smallblock Chevy

Rodding was quick to embrace the Chevy smallblock in the mid '50s. Lightweight, small, strong, reliable, and bristling with performance potential, the Bowtie motor took the anxious moments out of hot rodding that were associated with Ford flatmotors. And the Chevy did it without the weight penalties of the Cadillac, Olds, and Chrysler "fatmotors" of that time.

While a few rodders remained true to hot rodded flatmotors, the majority succumbed to the siren song of the overheads, most not hanging around long enough to learn how to put a flatmotor together the right way. In the recounting of flatmotor misadventures, ignorance and youthful incompetence are conveniently forgotten as all of the overheating, breakdowns, and poor performance are chalked up to imagined inherent flaws in the flatmotors themselves. And those that really ran great and never overheated are usually seen as lucky aberrations.

But luck had very little to do with it. That magic touch that some rodders had was the result of paying attention to good information and advice while developing sound building skills and habits. Nothing's changed. The same things apply to building Chevy smallblocks. It's just that the later motors are a little more tolerant of inexpert building and tuning than the flatmotors are.

The growing interest in flatmotors that sprang from the nostalgia drag racing movement has been spreading to the streets all over the country. But the intervening break in flatmotor popularity has also meant a break in easily accessed flatmotor expertise; the good practitioners are rare. We'd like to help the interest along by sharing some special tricks and valuable insights from flathead maven Vern Tardel's years of building healthy, reliable flatmotors. We knew Vern was the guy to talk to when we learned that the motor he built for the family car, a '40 Tudor, has logged over 100,000, including some at 100-plus for hours at a stretch on the way to Bonneville, and is still a long way from needing a redo.

When we got into the meat of the subject we discovered that Vern has so much good information we had to break it into two parts. Even so, time and space won't allow us to cover a detailed point-by-point flathead build. That would require an entire book--which is what you must use when you apply Vern's great suggestions, tips, and cautions for building a strong, reliable flathead for the street.

We recommend Ron Bishop's Rebuilding the Famous Ford Flathead as an all-around good source for working on the motor. The book covers the important--but not obvious--tasks of disassembly, cleaning, inspection, and assembly, relating them to the services available today, rather than when the motors were in production. Many old Ford parts suppliers, including Speedway Motors, carry Ron's book.

We also point you to Ron Holleran's recently published “Nostalgia--Rebuilding and Modifying the Flathead Ford V8” for some interesting perspective derived from circle-track flatmotors, as well as some variants you may want to consider later on.

(Not available at the time is Tex Smith’s “The Complete Ford Flathead V8 Engine Manual,” by Ron Ceridono for additional basic information.)

In this first part we'll deal with the block and crankshaft assembly. Although it may seem logical to also talk about the valve train along with the block, seeing as how we're dealing with an L-head design, we're holding that information for Part Two.


BLOCK SELECTION, CLEANING, AND PREPARATION

To ensure a successful flatmotor project, confine your shopping to either a 59-series block (1942-48) or an 8BA (1949-53). The blocks are essentially identical, except for a couple of details. The 59 block has an integral bellhousing while the 8BA has a separate stamped steel bellhousing, making the 8BA more versatile with regard to transmission selection. The 59-series center inlet heads can be used on an 8BA block, although some water passages must first be plugged in an 8BA block. Conversely, late heads can be used on the early block if the front center hole in each head is plugged.

No matter which series block you choose, the first rule of buying a block is: Don't buy a block unless you know for certain it is not cracked. Cracks in the crank webs and pan rails render a block useless. There are no effective repairs worth your time or money. [At the time we said, “Some builders feel it's acceptable to repair cracks in the cylinder decks. Don't do it, cautions Vern. Find another block--one that's not cracked. A repaired block may be okay for a low-time restoration, but it's not a good way to start building a strong and dependable new street motor.” With the very high demand on the finite supply of flathead blocks Vern has softened a bit on this point but still cautions against candidates that are pinned-together collections of sleeves.]

The block must be thoroughly cleaned to remove all traces of scale in the waterjackets. Modern bake-and-blast cleaning will do it in a single step and give the casting a foundry-fresh finish inside and out. If hot tanking is the only means available, however, it's essential to have the block metal stripped after hot tanking to remove the scale from the jackets.

Have the block magnafluxed after cleaning to make absolutely certain it's sound. For bake-and-blast cleaning, the block can be magnafluxed immediately following cleaning. If the cleaning is done in a hot tank, have the block magnafluxed after tanking but before metal stripping so you won't waste the cost of stripping on a cracked block. [Two points to add: Pressure testing is also a valuable inspection step; it’s the only way to satisfactorily locate pinholes in the exhaust runners. Also, if the candidate block has already been bored to 3-5/16 inches and must go larger, it’s a good idea to have it sonic mapped and look for excessive core shift that might make it unwise to proceed.]

Boring should be no more than what's required to clean up and true the cylinders. If you need some special coaxing to talk you out of building a big-bore flatmotor, just say to yourself 'The thinner the cylinder wall, the higher the operating temperature.' And don't have the block bored until you have the new pistons on hand so correct fit can be assured.

Align boring the mains may buy peace of mind but may not be necessary. Just set the crank in place with fresh bearings clearanced at 0.002-0.003 inch, omitting the oil seals, and spin the crank. If it coasts, the block and crank are okay. If there is a slight drag, align boring is warranted as long as crankshaft runout is acceptable. [Align boring has gotten very pricey in some markets, so it’s hardly a routine step.]

Install new [repeat – “new”] cylinder head studs in the block, set in Permatex. And when you get ready to install the heads, apply a generous coat of anti-seize compound to the entire shoulder area of each stud.


VALVE SEATS

Most early blocks have hardened Stellite valve seats which are excellent for use with no-lead gasoline. As production progressed, the hardened seats were "phased out," first from the intake valves and finally from both seats in the last part of 8BA production.

If your engine does not have Stellite seats or if they are worn beyond limits, have new hardened seats installed in the block.

And as long as you're replacing valve seats, consider upgrading the intake tract using 1.6-inch Chevy valves. The price of installing the larger hardened seats is about the same as for installing 1-1/2-inch seats.


CRANKSHAFT SELECTION AND CLEANING

Top choice for a good street motor crankshaft is a '49-53 Mercury crank. It has 1/4 inch more stroke than the Ford crank and is easily identified by the 5/8-inch cleanout hole in each journal; the hole in the 3-3/4-inch-stroke Ford crank is 3/8 inch. [We all know that’s no longer true, don’t we? So far the only indicator I’ve found that’s reliable is the width of the base of the large counterweight – less than 6 inches = 3-3/4 inch Ford crank; more than 6 inches = 4-inch Mercury crank.]

Additional stroke, achieved either through offset grinding [requiring the use of pricey floating bearings] or weld buildup and then grinding, is more trouble [ready “Money”] than it's worth for a street motor.

After the crank has been cleaned, magnafluxed, and checked for straightness, remove the plugs from the sludge traps and thoroughly clean the inside of the journals. Don't trust hot tanking to do this -- it won't. What it might do is loosen some of the hard "cheese" in the sludge traps that will later find its way into an oil-feed hole in a rod journal. This is not an optional step. When the crank is scrupulously clean, have the sludge trap holes tapped and plugged; don't rely on Welch plugs.

Aside from being clean and free of cracks, crank runout should be no more than 0.003 inch.

When all machining and grinding work is done, thoroughly clean the crank again and protect it with a light oil film until you're ready to assemble the motor.


CONNECTING ROD SELECTION AND PREPARATION

The 8BA rods with lock-in inserts are the best choice for a street motor. [At the time we said “Remove the flash from the beams and the ears from the small end, but don't get carried away; there's not a lot of metal on old Ford rods.” Unless you’re using a Shadowgraph for this job, to properly weight match the rods, don’t do it; you’re likely to remove material that might be needed to achieve a good weight balance of the entire set. Let this task be part of the pro balance job you’ll have done.]

Even if you are using new rods, have them magnafluxed, straightened, resized, and rebushed. This is not an optional step.


OIL PUMP

[In the original article I said “The first-choice oil pump is a Melling aftermarket pump from the '50's, but they're hard to find. The next best pump, and one that will easily handle the lubrication needs of a built street flatmotor, is the '49-'53 truck pump.” Well, that’s my lack of experience at the time. The old Melling high-volume pump was the hot setup for a hi-po motor running a little loose and with floating bearings. On a snug, insert-bearing street motor it’s not only not needed, it’s also not a good choice in that it will spend most of its time running with the pressure relief valve open, resulting in unnecessarily high oil temperatures. Ron Holleran did a great job of explaining this on the Fordbarn board not long ago; as I’m sure he’s done time and time again for newbies like me! The readily available Ford truck pump is the one to have.]


PISTON SELECTION AND FIT

You don't need exotic racing pistons for a street motor. And you needn't look far for the right ones; Speedway Motors stocks a great cast aluminum piston that's reasonably priced--$249.00 for a set.

If you insist on something high-tech, you'll find it in the new high-silicon content pistons from Egge Machine. These cast pistons are light and as strong as most forged pistons, but have a low coefficient of expansion that permits them to be fitted with 0.003-inch clearance.

Vern recommends good quality cast iron rings, like those from Sealed Power, for a street motor rather than harder chrome rings. There's little need for a 200,000-mile chrome ring in what will probably be a low-time engine. Also, iron rings seat quickly while chrome rings can take several thousand miles to seat--if at all.

And be sure to follow the ring manufacturer's instructions for honing, fit, and break-in.


Well, that should be enough to keep you busy [until tomorrow], when we present the rest of the flatmotor building tips. We'll cover the valve train, including camshaft selection, and continue on through waterpump selection and modification, cylinder heads, intake, exhaust, ignition, and flywheel and clutch.

 

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Well, that should be enough to keep you busy [until tomorrow], when we present the rest of the flatmotor building tips. We'll cover the valve train, including camshaft selection, and continue on through waterpump selection and modification, cylinder heads, intake, exhaust, ignition, and flywheel and clutch.



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I cant wait.....

Danny

 

can we get some Tech O'Matic action on this one?

 

I just finished a re-build on my 8BA. I wish I was armed with a little more info on cleaning the block. I had mine hot tanked and no metal stripping. Baking and blasting would have been alot better. Thanks to all that have provided info on the Flathead.

 

I'm working on part Two right now, updating info on parts choices and availability. Should post it in an hour or so.

 

awesome.

 

Wow! Can't wait for part two! Thanks

 

The wait is over!

I’ve eliminated the intro to this part which just recaps part One, and pick up here . . .


VALVES, SPRINGS, AND GUIDES

In Part One we suggested that if you were replacing the valve seats you might as well use 1.6-inch Chevy valves for the intake for improved breathing. If your block already has good hardened seats, however, stick with good quality, one-piece, 1-1/2-inch Ford replacement valves.

Likewise, use the later style one-piece valve guides with new rubber seals on the intake guides.

Since it's unlikely that your street motor will ever be twisted beyond 5,000--if even that high--there's no need for heavy spring pressure. New Lincoln Zephyr-type springs--the original hot setup--are available from Red's Headers (see Suppliers list).


CAM AND LIFTERS

[The cam wars of the ‘50s and ‘60s weren’t anything compared to the flathead cam wars of the last several years. Every builder’s favorite cam absolutely outperforms ever other builder’s favorite cam – guaranteed. LOL Ten-twelve years ago there were very few flathead cam grinders still really active in the market. Isky was the more prominent of those, and they have a decent reputation, although their cams often don’t meet their own specs. They’re not off by much, Ed Binggeli tells me, and plenty good for a street motor. With the increased interest in flatheads in the interim, more of the old names are appearing and their cams are readily available. We’re particularly blessed in our neighborhood with a young cam grinder who has the late John DeLong’s favorite machine and the majority of DeLong’s popular patterns. He honors the spirit of the greatest cam designer and grinder since Ed Winfield with cams that are absolutely in spec and perfect. Still, I stand by the original recommendations. As an alternative, check with . . .

http://www.schneidercams.com/index.htm

I hear good things about their cams.]

For a good street flatmotor you can't do any better (well . . .) than an Isky cam--either the 3/4-race Max 1 or the 400 Jr. The Max 1 is relatively quiet and will yield reasonably good fuel mileage along with noticeable performance improvement.

But for that great flatmotor snap and sound the 400 Jr. is the hot ticket. Acceleration is noticeably stronger than the Max 1, although the Jr. is a thirsty stick that will probably cost you several miles per gallon. What the hell, this isn't going to be a commuter motor--go with the Jr.

The best lifter is still the old lightweight Johnson adjustable tappet. It's a shame that it's no longer made, but don't despair; you can still find good ones at swap meets and in old rebuilds; the Johnson tappet was a favorite with engine rebuilders. When good used Johnson's are used in conjunction with reasonable spring pressure, like that from Zephyr springs, there's little risk of flattening the cam lobes. [This situation has changed, of course, with new lightweight adjustables from Red Hamilton. There were some problems early on with the new lifters in that some would loosen up, but Red has since taken care of it and the problem is now a thing of the past.]


TIMING GEAR

Use an aluminum timing gear on the cam, not a fiber gear. And if you can find a good 12-hole aluminum gear at a swap meet, buy it because it will allow you to precisely degree your cam.


CYLINDER HEADS

New cylinder heads are essential to a trouble-free flatmotor. Buying old heads is a risky situation at best. Electrolysis is inevitable, and while some erosion is repairable, it will probably cost more than the heads are worth. Just as important, it's hard to know how much material has been removed from the heads, both on the sealing surface and in the combustion chambers, without precise measurement.

The two most-popular new heads are from Offenhauser and Edelbrock, available through many old Ford parts sources (see Suppliers list). Offenhauser heads are marked with the amount of valve lift they will accommodate--0.375- , 0.400- , or 0.425-inch, removing any guesswork about which head you need. [I’ve recently learned from Ron Holleran, via Fordbarn, that the Offy heads are not accurately sized and will probably need some tweaking to get sufficient valve clearance.] Edelbrock heads are marked with compression ratio. This is a little less precise, but all that matters is that 8:1 Edelbrocks will accommodate 0.400 inch of valve lift. [Less precise or not, Ron says the Edelbrocks are quite good as manufactured.]

Also available are Navarro heads, direct from Barney himself (see Suppliers list). When ordering, be sure to let him know how much valve lift you're running. [Barney’s heads are pricier and much harder to come by; he casts relatively few sets each year.]


WATERPUMPS

[Good] Waterpumps are absolutely critical to the success of a flatmotor. The best pumps are those with sealed ball bearings rather than oil-fed bushings. Bearing pumps include 59-series commercial and '49-'53 Mercury and Ford commercial. All of these pumps have wide belt sheaves, except '52,'53 Mercury pumps which have narrow belt sheaves. [Thanks to Speedway Bill, waterpumps are no longer a problem; simply buy a pair of the new sealed bearing pumps and be down with it. Or, you can invest a few more dollars ($200/set) and have your pumps rebuilt by a fellow named Skip who has designed an improved impeller that he adds to the package which includes sealed bearings. Folks report temperature reductions of 10-20 degrees with his pumps. Check Fordbarn for a link to Skip.]

[Way back when, I said “Pumps should be modified to reduce flow, either by drilling holes in the vanes or removing every other vane.” My misunderstanding and a misapplication of early racemotor practice with low-pressure systems when the goal was to keep the pumps from pushing water out of the radiator vent at sustained high engine speed. Don’t even think about drilling or removing impeller vanes!]

[I’ll leave this piece of advice in place just you’re going to make do with bushed pumps. “For bushed passenger car pumps, engine-supplied oil is critical. Without a steady oil supply, the pumps will fail. Take particular care when installing this type of waterpump to make sure the gasket or gasket sealer does not block the feed holes. (Oil feed is not a problem for ball-bearing pumps, of course, and the pump mounting flanges cover the oil feed holes on the block.)”]

Finally, don't get carried away with tension on the belt that drives the waterpumps. Too much tension can shorten the life of the bearings. Too much tension on bushed pumps is guaranteed to rapidly wear out the bushings and likely damage the shafts.


IGNITION

For traditionalists, the '46-'48 distributor, converted to 12 volts with 12V coil and condenser, and the '42 crab cap--available new from old Ford parts sources as well as stores like NAPA--is the hot setup. If you are less hidebound to the past, the 8BA distributor drive with a dual-point Mallory distributor is an excellent combination. [As ugly as it is, the GM HEI conversion is one of the very best things to do to a street-driven flathead – inexpensive, bulletproof, no pricey high-tech extra “boxes” required. Not for an open engine compartment, however!]

The best spark plug for the flatmotor is the Champion H10. If your auto parts guys can't find 'em, check the local garden supply store; the H10 is a popular lawn mower plug. [Lots of experience with other plugs in the last decade. Again, check with Fordbarn.]


INTAKE

The best intake for a street motor is a two-carb setup with fresh Stromberg 97's. (We'll feature a follow-up piece on the 97 in a future issue.) [We did.]

While three-twos may look great, the added air-flow potential is too much and creates idle problems.

A single 400 [390] cfm four-barrel also works well, although it lacks the traditional look and mystique of a pair of 97's. [Still a great setup from a performance standpoint.]

Unlike used heads, old manifolds have a long life. Just make sure a candidate manifold isn't cracked or missing pieces around the mounting bolt holes before you buy it. Check too for stripped threads in the carburetor stud bores. Welding and retapping adds to the cost of a "bargain" manifold.


FLYWHEEL AND CLUTCH

A 9-1/2-inch clutch is all that's needed. An 11-inch clutch is not only too heavy, it's unnecessarily stiff.

For a medium-weight car you can remove about 12 pounds from the flywheel with no ill effects on smooth starts. For a car of 3,000 pounds or more the stock 'wheel is recommended.

If you're the shiftless sort, the Flat-O-Matic conversion utilizing a Ford C4 automatic is as slick as it gets. It's a well engineered, quality kit that has everything working together just as though Henry planned it that way.


ON THE ROAD

Run a quality multi-grade oil--20W-50--and change it every 1,500 miles without fail.

Run 180-degree thermostats, and add a pint of soluble oil to the engine coolant to prevent electrolysis in the cylinder heads.

Break in the fresh motor just as you would any other, taking care not to overheat it or run it at a sustained speed for the first few hundred miles.

And, most important of all, enjoy the reality of a well put together flatmotor and forget about the old wives' tales and myths.

[SOME THOUGHTS ABOUT PORTING AND RELIEVING – I’m not sure why we didn’t get into the subject of porting and relieving, other than maybe saving it for an article of its own, which the subject certainly demands. No matter. I think a port and bowl cleanup with port matching of the intake manifold is time well spent even on a mild street motor, particularly if you’re doing the work yourself. Paying someone to do it for you is another matter altogether, and you can be certain that even a basic job is going to set you back a few hundred bucks.

Mild porting and port matching alone won’t do a great deal for a standard-spec motor, but they enable other upgrades in valve train, intake, exhaust, and ignition to perform as they are intended. I posted a thread on basic porting on the HAMB way way back, but I’m not sure if it’s in the Tech “keeper” section or if it has illustrations. It does exist here . . . http://www.btc-bci.com/~billben/flathead.htm and is titled “A lesson in porting.”]

 

Thanks alot Mike!! Without your hard work and knowledge, Us flathead newbees would be lost. Thank you for taking the time to type and compile your thoughts. PJ>

 

Thanks, Mike!

 

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so im thinking about rebuilding my 40 ford flathead

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I am sorry...

 

great info.. thanks