Projects More then it's worth

I can sum it all up with a line from a Rush song: We will pay the price, but we will not count the cost.

 

This has a slight aroma of what happened in the restoration industry during the tech stock days. From about 94 on you couldn't pick up a car magazine related to vintage cars without seeing an article or editorial about how the resto shop client was the big loser. The majority of stories essentially advised folk to buy finished cars in order to take advantage of the owner's loss. If my client base was all people demanding a profit I couldn't have a shop rate over $10/hr, and I should be the one working at a hearty loss. What we need to remember, and try not to hang on every word, money is secondary to the singular user/owner of collectible cars. It's as much part of the raw material as paint or swap meet parts. Not every concours participant (actually very few if any) have the talent to create that product. And make no mistake, from the clobbered up hot rod to the 1 of 1 Euro uber rare cabriolet, ALL OF IT can be considered as tangible assets. Ask yourselves why the rare and desired parts are twice what they used to be since before the real estate debacle. Since just before it's 75th anniversary the beloved Deuce began to rise in value with some crowding Packard or Lincoln KB values. We see some settling now and then, more like things leveling off to realistic numbers. Still, regardless of how you as owners feel about your treasure, and louder than the bravado expressed of "...don't care, I drive blah-blah, blah-blah...", in the long term nothing has done better than a significant car. It's clearly netted higher returns on the most coveted examples that were squirreled away with intent, even lacking intent but "discovered" and auctioned off like fine art. The worst return in the past decade or 2 has been the rate of inflation. That Model A coupe purchased for $1,800 is now worth closer to $4,000, parts or whole, doesn't seem to matter.
I've heard some of the most seasoned pros tell people NEVER invest in these cars. If everyone listened what would have happened a few years ago to the guy who bought the 63 SD Tempest? How about the original cars in the French barn? Even at $200K, another $300K in restoration, some ended up with cars valued well into 7 figures. "Yeah, what about..." some of you are probably thinking now. About that 61 bubble top with the LS-dumb, 18 and 20 inch wheels, ostrich skin leather, body work that wnet on for a year and a 1/2, and more that the majority here detest more than they'll admit. Indeed, LOSER of a project because cars like that cost twice to do what they'll ever be worth on the open market. You see one of those cross the B-J stage in Jan and watch it top $100K. Ask yourself on the next one how many hours you think it took to build. 99 out of 100 were built in top drawer pro shops with rates exceeding $100/hr. 3000 hrs happens so fast you'd think you traveled through time. The one that stayed the course, started with a great car, kept it "real" which appeals to a huge base, then sold it 5 years later? Did he make money? If he breaks even you could say yes because he experienced it for free. Maybe a net of only 10% was gained. Outside of false sticker mark ups on limited builds, name the car you bought new 10 years ago that's worth more than your expense. From the Bentleys I mentioned before and sometimes on up to "super car" territory, they cost you plenty. We're not all dealers and hucksters. Most just happen to like what they like and in time they find their taste and desire didn't cost what they thought, or in fact paid them back. If you don't care, well fuckin eh, you go bro! But use your right to remain silent when it sells for less than 1/2 of what you spent. At the end of the day golf costs more than "our" stuff.

 

This is EXACTLY the point I was trying to make in my earlier post. I actually went through this thought process earlier this year. I have too many cars, that's the plain truth. There was a car I briefly tried to sell as-is, without much success. I also had a nice std bore 351 4v Cleveland that would be a PERFECT core to build a pseudo Boss 351 to put in this thing.
I really wanted to do it, but I kept sweating over the idea that if I did it the way I want, I might take a $1000-$1500 hit when I sell the finished car later. Then I asked myself the OBVIOUS question. Is it worth $2000 to me to drive this thing around for a year or so with a rumpity solid lifter Cleveland in it? Hell yes, when I look at it that way, it's a no-brainer!

 

A few years ago my brother had 1/4 panels and a paint job done on his musclecar. When it was done he said "I have more money in this thing than it is worth." I replied "are you having fun?" He said YES. THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE!

Sent from my SM-G900V using The H.A.M.B. mobile app

 

Wheeldog, yeah, some muscle cars are a sketchy choice. Their "school girl" siblings too, meaning the 307 2bbl 69 Camaro vs the Z28 or SS big blocks. Now I mentioned a 69 Camaro for a reason. Today they are sought after more than many others. Some 69s are worth more in parts than they are whole (!), and the aftermarket thought enough of them to build a complete new body. Then there's the dreaded clone/tribute situation. That world will never agree on where the original car begins and ends. Engine? Tags? Body? All or nothing? Suppose I got my eccentric Uncle Mel's 69 COPO 427. He raced it, kept every scrap of paper from time slips to oil receipts, when he got tired of it he parked in his dirt floor shed out back where it languished for decades. That time rotted out the floors and lower qtr panels but the engine was still good, even the interior was still incredibly nice and original, but the body is toast. Choice A: Buy repro Aisan import floors and "restore" the body.
Choice B: Buy a western perfect shell built by GM and move everything to that instead.
For all reading here, which car would be more correct, authentic, indeed faithful to it's roots? Does the new shell make it a tribute/clone? Is it better to add Asian sub-par sheet metal to it or have a shell built on the same fixtures as Uncle Mel's car was? We swap early Ford stuff around like it's nothing. This body and frame, those fenders, bumpers, even engines and seem to never hear the same alerts or cause the stir that making that Camaro whole again could raise. If you were to remain silent about it, nobody knew, is that fraud? Is it a crime? All of this thought process gets involved in our choices, both aesthetic and financial. I don't want to derail the topic but it's a good point to bring up in such a conversation, yes?

 

That is an awesome point.
We just had a lengthy discussion yesterday about the same thing. Copo '69 Camaro and putting it back together. Personally I don't find value or the extreme prices worthy but nonetheless they are what they are and bring what they bring. It makes sense that an original Copo is an original Copo. If it's repaired, resurrected, restored or altered or even touched up it's a new creation, it's just not a high dollar original. The aspirations and pride of duplicating one of them drives the prices of parts to a $10,000 difference for just a Letter stamp of BA vs BE on a 12 bolt rear end.

 

After 50 years in the motorcycle business I can tell you that I have made more actual profit on stuff I bought cheap,cleaned up minimally and resold than I ever did on ground up builds.The important part of that statement is "bought cheap".I have never made much money on anything I built because I wanted it for myself .On the other hand I dont charge myself much labor,so it all comes out in the end.

 

So Vic, what do you think of my approach? Real or "Memorex"? I don't want to muller up the idea with finding a never rusted example. Those are holy grails, but what of the rest. It can be anything, RA IV T/A, 69 Judge, a HAMB friendly 62 Belair. Where did the car begin and end?

 

Hey, Highlander;

You did ask... .
So, some thoughts on the theoretical or "air-car" situation.
I'm not considering the cost/amount-of-effort to get to a finished car, just some thoughts on approach(es) to that end.
FWIW:

This was beat to death about 20+ yrs ago in the SAAC club, including the courts. What they kinda found out (IIRC), was that intention, & documentation, was the most important. Even in the mid-90's, cloning/repairing/re-bodying Shelby mustangs n Cobras, was getting crazy - & so were the prices. Along w/the purists-saving-them + the ripoff-artists-conning-anyone-they-could. Which led to some interesting lawsuits. Admittedly, the situation was a bit different, what w/the fixation of SAACs' documentary(ies) on the Shelby stuff, + Shelby still alive n doing re-runs of his own, along w/still being considered a mfgr. Same deal w/Ferrari.
AFAIK, Shelby pulled a couple of fast ones, although legal, in resurrecting some ~'66 Shelby GT350s, & later the 427 Cobras. One could claim that even though he was a mfgr, the new GT350s were clones, replicas or something just a cats'-hair short of a rebody. He found a loophole (typical... ) that allowed a past-but-current mfgr to keep an old line of cars going, even 20-30 yrs later. The new GT350s required a certain % (which was stated - but I don't remember the MINIMUM %# given) of old-original-built OEM sheetmetal + the VIN to be used. Remember, Shelby GTs used both the OEM (ford) VIN + Shelbys' VIN tag. Most of these had something like one inner fender, part of the floorpan, firewall, frame/etc that were used in the re-construction. & somehow he scared up a LOT of NOS sheetmetal parts for the rest. & like back then, the engines/drivelines were replaced/modified anyways. The Cobras I'd consider just short of "air-cars", due to the fact that "supposedly" he stumbled on a large stack of forgotten frames w/mfgr-vin-tag on them. So they got "Continuation" # assigned. Uh-huh, maybe, but it really does tax the imagination level of credibility, aka "plausable deniability". Don't get me wrong, I'd be real happy w/any one of these, but they can't possibly be original-back-in-the-day-real-deals. They do get there own history. Ferrari, I'm told, technically just "temporarily" stops production of any given model, so they can, & will build a new one, if plied w/enough $$$, w/next-in-line VIN. Supposedly, they still have all the bucks/tooling/etc. The last two sentences are supposedly why Ferrari was so successful in killing a lot of the 'glass-replicars guys in court.

Anyways, I'd consider the Option#2 to be a ReBody. Nothing wrong w/that, (it's usually the easiest n fastest route if a rust-free body can be found) as long as proper documentation is done. Up to, & maybe including, both car serial#s, - especially on the title n maybe on the car itself - , to ensure someone downline of sale doesn't "conveniantly forget" about the now-previous rebody.
Option#1 is a bit murky, esp w/offshore-non-OEM panels.
If I was looking to maximise value n minimise (legal) troubles, I'd seriously look at:
Option#3: OEM NOS panels. I'd guess most expensive possible route.
Option#4: Used (hopefully) rust-free OEM panels.
Option#5: New panels from whomever is making them or the new complete body - as long as they are at least made in the US.
Option#6: Handformed patch panels by someone in the US.
Option#7: Sell as-is as barnfind/etc.
(& somewhere 'twixt option 1-6 is where other non-parts fall into; nos, rebuilt, newly cast/etc. If we're talking original here, how can something never made back in the day = original? Moves the definition to another catagory...

To me,
original, repaired, clone, tribute, re-body, restoration, re-build, improved, replica, air-car, etc; are all different. I don't believe that any of this makes an old original a new creation (except the replica & aircar), but they aren't truly original, either. There are degrees of how far away from original each approach gets. & at what point does it really matter? Like my dad used to say: "Who in 'H' really cares?" Nothing wrong w/any of them, but as mentioned, Intent & Documentation are key. Esp during/after the sale.

Of course, now you, or someone, gets to decide: at what level does it go from "fixing-up, to repairing, to restoring, to a re-body. Could become an "air-car". & while it is difficult to argue one way or the other - if & only if - ; the car is for "you or to stay in family forever" (think: Irrevocable Trust), at some point, when sold, if it is EVER (usually not the original owner/builder - but somewhere down-the-line) represented as something other that what it has become (read: NOT a perfect garage-kept queen that has never-ever had rust/rot nor any repairs) the courts will get involved. Usually at the request/demand of guy-that-got-financially-burned. & they will work backwards to find the now-missing paper-trail. & the guy that did the misrepresenting will go up in flames. &, usually so does most of the $$$ spent by the folks "downline", unfortunately.

Now, this doesn't affect most of us, but it is something that has come-of-age, due to the "perceived or otherwise" value of old cars. & why govt has been getting involved (tax$$$ to be had off of these valuations/etc. + the whole vin/title issue/etc). So for me, at least, I'm happy to know the potential pitfalls, so I can use the best solution to avoid troubles, even though I have nothing worth these levels of $$$ or rarity, I do keep records, including BoS. It's a pain, but the flip-side is worse.

When someone starts to claim things like:
Historical value
Magazine Feature
Racing history
Who owned it history
Original Owner
Rarity
Horsepower
Hi-performance levels
Originality
Documented care from new
maybe the Shop-that-did-the-work
any other Odd/Unusual Thing
Bragging Rights
all for the purpose to "coax" the payoff into the 6, 7, or - aww hell, why not: 8 figures for this car, I do hope ALL the ducks are in order.

Otherwise, it's Popcorn time.

BTW, this also applies to firearms (including ancient muzzleloaders & military weapons), houses, jewelry, warplanes, cameras & potentially anything else that is capable of being carried to an extreme valuation by some "enthusiast or collector".
It's like the oft-quoted example of Washingtons' axe that he used to chop down the cherry tree legend: "Damn straight it's the original, it's only had 5 different axe heads n 7 different axe handles, but it's his axe, & I can prove it!" Uh-huh... Define "original"... .

So, NO, I don't have THE definitive answer, there isn't just one. . Let common sense, the pocketbook, n parts availability guide. Just CYA, due to todays' litigous society. It SHOULD be fun.

&, BTW #2, if you've read this far, in addition to the interest I've had in the afore-mentioned shenanagins, I have ~ 3-4 cars that require these considerations. Still haven't figured out which Option they're gonna get. None are worth cubic-coin nor $$$, or so I'm told, but still gotta consider Options.

BTW #3. Cars/etc are a losing proposition financially for me. I've sorta broken even on a couple, lost on the rest. & they weren't that enjoyable. You'd think that after 60 yrs I'd learn to finally quit when I'm behind. Aww hell, of late, I'm losing $$ even on free-to-me parts. My ass hurts... ;( .

Marcus...

 

nrgwizard,
You forgot to mention art, as in fine art, as in paintings that bring tens of millions of dollars and then turn out to be fakes. Just as pretty as an original, but somehow not as valuable.
Cars are art, too, but was it done by the original artist, or is it a copy by a forger, or an over-the-top restoration that overshadows the original materials? After a while these conversations become like counting the angels on the head of a pin.

A car is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Nothing else matters.

 

Took me 13 years to put together my Ford(avatar). Did it with flea market money, a little moon lighting,and scrounging. I don't know how much I have in it, nor am I willing to add it up to find out. It was the most enjoyment I've had in years and I drive when ever I can. It take short trips and long trips, doesn't overheat(full house flatty) and doesn't break. Would I sell it? Who knows. Would I make a profit? Cash wise yes. Time wise no.

 

quite a few get involved in building one car at a time. to get it done, they are willing to overpay for the missing parts and/or labor to get it done. they don't want to wait and shop around. they want it done now.

But for me I build quite a few cars at once. I will keep swapping back and forth between projects based on what parts I find at the right price or came in a group lot purchase. I don't need a specific car done by a certain time. I go for building them affordably. Once in a while if i'm close to having something done, I might pay a little extra to get certain pieces to get it completed but I saved a lot on the rest of it so I figured I can do it.

I can understand people with a 1 or 2 car garage can't do this but for me having 2 toy boxes(pole barns) designated for my personal use I can have many cars in storage waiting their turn with 14 cars in the shop that are in different stages right now. yes, I know i'll never get all my cars done before I go but i'm having fun and the wife can enjoy the money from the auction when i'm gone.

anyways I have friends that spent way more on one car then I have on many of mine combined. They can't believe I have so little in some of them. but I do my own labor and I put whatever together that I get parts for at the right price.

I'm not the guy walking the swap meet looking for certain parts for a single vehicle and pay and arm and leg for them to get them but i'm the guy that will walk pass parts that I could use but are priced higher than I want to pay and buy the right priced parts for another project that can be rolled back into the shop.

 

Those of you who insist that every action should have a value and be charged against the final product go right ahead. I would never make any sort of profit if I paid myself $50 an hr and totaled up how much I used the bathroom water supply.
But I am able to take my projects ,have fun building them and sell them for more than ACTUAL money spent . How much extra wear I put on my shoes walking to the garage or the extra soap I use in the shower because I have been in the garage is not an issue. Who knows I may have walked that far or got that stinky just setting in front of the TV.
But I have not spent any house hold money on project cars in 20 years ,always able to complete the next project with money received from the last. My wife also loves that part. If you want to spend your time adding up all the utilities and toilet paper let me know how you come out ,I'll be in the garage havin a great time.

 

I'm one of the group who isn't in it or building cars to sell on a regular basis. The projects I have will probably go to my kids when I am gone.

I'd say this though, if are figuring on selling the car that you are building in a year or two build a highly desirable that has a big market. Those odd rods cost as much or more to build even though the buy in can be dirt cheap. A model A sedan on 32 rails with a small block V8 matching trans and rear will always bring a decent price but that 51 Dodge coupe that you got for 400 and drove home and then stuck a small block and automatic in and upgraded the brakes and did a custom interior and put a nice paint job and wheels on is going to be a hard sell to most of the folks around.

As someone said keeping it simple and building a solid good driving car without a lot of embellishments on it that a prospective buyer can look at and visualize his dream car with his paint job, his choice of wheels and tires and his engine trinkets decorating the engine most likely produces the best chance of profit and at the same time gives prospective buyer that he is buying "his" car rather than getting your old car.

last, if you are planning on selling it don't put a bunch of frigging personalization on it. No full deck lid mural showing a scene relevant to your life but something that anyone else will have to have removed.

 

Amen to that. I see a lot of cars (even in HAMB classifieds) that have paint jobs that scream "This is my car". Might as well paint your name on the door.
Nothing worse than pulling your new ride into the drive-in and having six different guys telling you all about it.

 

Hey, Mike;
You're right. I'd rather have a clone - replica for use, as there's little to no value to mess up. But, selling becomes another matter, as the same thing applies. No to little value returned. So the only value is what you can enjoy out of it, while you use it. Totally different deal than the one I was commenting on prior.

The value of something is almost totally different than the price of something. Most people confuse the two. Depends on two outlooks from two different points of view. Once in awhile they meet.

& I can relate to the owning/working on 2 -> 20 projects at a time. Both to keep interest up, & finding parts as they show up. But that also has it's own serious drawbacks. <shrug> .

Marcus...

 

I'm too ,not one,the guy that I am when running my shop{Biz} an the other guy when working on my own stuff 4 me. If I'm working my own stuff,it's entertainmint n fun n that $ is fun,sometimes it's just gone,so what it was fun . On others stuff the idea is to make $ at the shop.{well at lest some times,LOL

 

BINGO!!! We have a winner folks!

 

My 46 Olds owes me now more than what my 35 Chevy does and I do almost all of the work. It's just sourcing the parts and having them delivered 1/2 way around the world that costs!. Did I do it to make a profit? No, I wouldn't recoup my labour.. I lead a boring life and don't drink, smoke, gamble or womanise; well to a small degree I do have some vices and some spare $ to throw at the car as I prepare for retirement.

 

Me too, but I refuse to give up doughnuts, a man's gotta live!

 

I've spent a lot of money on Booze, Cars and Women. The rest I just wasted.

Gary

 

The only people that regularly make money at hotrodding is the UPS guy bringing you the parts.

 

To cap off my question, in the vintage circles there's those who have the talent to build an exact body from the existing prints. They're called (go figure) a rebody and aren't recognized for judging at natl events. Most Concours events distinguish only on quality and allow them for exhibition and award competition. The AACA and CCCA won't distinguish between what a car was born as vs what it is now as long as all the parts are from the OEM represented. If someone put a roadster body on a sedan chassis, no harm no foul if the restoration is right and authentic. To the buyer, different story. They now want to know that a 740 Packard Roadster was indeed born as such. Doesn't matter how well or correct it's done, if it came out that someone built the best of the 2 cars they had it means a considerable drop in value. If we drop a 3W body on any chassis nobody gives a shit if it's a good build. I don't where I land in the middle of this other than following the market trends. Well, that and doing what the client wants. I think deep down when it comes to the COPO, Ram Air IV T/A, Shelby Mustang, maybe a 62 Belair 409 too, I'd want my restoration to be as real as it can be. If my 409 was resurrected with the help of a New Mexico 6cyl donor car, I feel like I win. Mi e is as right as the OEM intended. I "saved" a treasured example. GM built that body and the AACA will judge it too. No Asian panels or shop short cuts, sealers and clips and untold dozens of authentic nuances are there. Yeah, the market might squeak a little unless my 400 pt score says it all. What I want takes a back seat to the market sometimes, but I also always have the right to remain silent. Same as the guy who spends $300K to build a $100K car.

 

Considering all aspects-skill level, negotiation skills, knowledge of market, right place at the right time, salesmanship, etc. is why/how some people can turn a profit, vs how the majority are upside down in their builds (a real problem if you are in the business to make money vs the people who build their own, for themselves for a keeper).
Contrary to popular belief, some people do make money on these cars.

 

Hmm, fixing up old cars and selling for a profit is what I do.
My whole life I've bought, fixed up and sold old cars, mostly as a side line to my business. About 5 years ago thanks to the ressesion my normal work started drying up for the first time ever, money gets tight and toys (hot rods) get put on hold. I started getting more serious about buying and selling cars instead of building customer cars, most the time selling at the big auctions like B-J and Mecum, now building auction cars are mostly what we do. It has worked out ok, not making a killing but keeping the lights on and in a few cases making a few more bucks then customer work would of paid me. Fwiw I do track all expenses including overhead, hours ect. The key to me is buying the right car, it's got to be a popular one to appeal to the most buyers. Might cost more up front but a 40 Ford will sell much better and for far more $$$ then a 40 Nash yet both cost the same to build (actually the Ford might be cheaper to build, parts are cheap and easy to find). I look for partially done projects where you paying a fraction of what was already done. Last 2 came from estate sales, great place to find cheap projects. I look for easy projects, NO rusty cars that just eat up labor, no cars missing major components, stuff like that. Finally, you GOT to know where to put money and where not too as well. Example, a $10000 race motor will not net you anywhere near the investment over a 2000 crate motor on the auction block. I invest most into what I call "eyeball", looks are everything, gotta have great paint, right stance, detail, things that hook a buyer right off. The main key is to build something that appeals to the most buyers, you want 12 guys fighting over your car on the block instead of 2! Luckily, with 40 years in the business I feel I have a good handle on what people want to see. Plus there is the bonus of getting to build my way instead of how a customer dictates (anyone in the business knows what I mean by that), on the down side sometime I really hate to let them go when I finish them.

 

Agreed........

 

Agree with Metalman--do similar here but as a hobby one at a time. Haven't ever lost on a 40. I enjoy building them but being retired I have to at least break even so I can do another one-sometimes make a few bucks-sometimes break even.

 

Interesting read this thread. It seems to me that a lot of folks are keeping score by how well they do in selling and buying these old cars. That's fine if you are the score keeping kind. I personally am not into playing that game.

I build these old cars for the pure joy of doing the work and then enjoying the car. The pleasure I get cruising down these old country roads on a nice afternoon for me cannot be measured in dollars and cents.

For me its about "The Car" and how much fun I can have in it, I actually could care less about the fact of how much money I spent on this part or that, or weather I would show a profit if I was to ever sell a car. The fun factor is just to huge to even worry about the money.

 

Hombre, I wish I could do just that... build a car just for the enjoyment and someday that might happen(retirement!) but in my case they are how I chose to make a living ( I tell people I took a great hobby and screwed it up by turning it into a job!) and it's what puts food on the table, it's not about keeping score for me.

 

To all you builders. You sell your "built" cars to someone because they can't. They have the desire, the 16 year old rememberance, and now some $$ that they saved. Even tho they don't build they are the reason for all this. Sure some need all the best, Foose, etc. but in the long run the buyers are now the care takers. Many thanks to those who can build on a budget, even the TV ones that are done in 2 weeks (even tho it's really 6 months) but to me buying a "done " car brings real enjoyment for the buyer especially if he could tinkers with stuff like he could do when he was 16-17.
This was good reading; keep it up....