LOL!!! That gets to be a nasty little circle! He cares. I care. Then he cares, I don't. Then he doesn't care, because I don't care! At least we're all back on the same page now!!! ROFLMAO! Seriously, it is my hope that as soon as there are more of these cars, someone will figure out how to make the rules tight, and we can all get together and have a "National" or even regional meet sometime. Till then, the "Spirit" is alive and well, and the old timey-looking cars continue to be built. As someone pointed out, the build is half the fun, or in my case, MOST of the fun! By the way, I'm not really such an asshole as some of you might think.....I just don't translate well to print!
OK , What's not clear? Where are the "holes" in this sieve? The ones you would like to run through!! I read them and everything is pretty clear to me . The Aussies have added some rules to enable them to run under ANDRA rules, the West Coast guys have added some tubing, but the rules only say a minimum which they exceed. SDRA changed the rules and they are on their own, Ryan told them so. Again I ask , What's not clear? You have said Ryan "doesn't care", from my perspective nothing is further from the truth. If you had taken the time to read the old posts you would see that he does in fact care and has stated that if you build something outside the rules it runs in a different class at Mokan ( the national event) and if radically different to the original concept then this ain't the place for your car.
Nothing nasty about it , Ryan cares, but he has more on his plate than babysitting wayward wannabes who want to second guess the rules. The only people who don't care are those who want to use the rules as a base but step slightly over the line...... and then be accepted into the fold . What's the problem with just building something well within the rules and not having to push the limits at every opportunity? National HA/GR event= Mokan HAMB nationals ...? No ??? Regional events... Eagle Field for one !!! International Events??? Watch this space!!
I too have found the rules to be reasonably clear. Any questions I had were answered by experienced builders. In my case, I had to "adjust" the car to pass local NHRA inspection. After running the car a couple times I opted to put an automatic transmission in it. I have my reasons. And I realize and accept without griping or trying to get accepted that it is no longer a faithful HA/GR. No lobbying for rules changes either. Like some others have stated, if the class grows in my area, I'll put a stick back in it. In the meantime, it is just a funny looking bracket and Test and Tune runner at my local drag strips. Now, if I lived in California, I'd be in drag racing nirvana and have a legal HA/GR. My interpretation of Ryan's interest and involvement is, he along with some others gave birth to the concept and established the rules. He had no intention of becoming the Wally Parks of HA/GR racing and fronting the "HA/GR Racing Association".
Perhaps someone could find a copy of the N(o)H(ot)R(ods)A(llowed) rules from the mid '50s and we could compare them for kicks. Seems like as long as there are rules...somebody wants to either "clarify" or complicate them until the concept has no resemblance of what it was begun as.
97, you have missed my entire point. I don't want to change the rules. I am very clear on what Ryan's INTENT was when he made these rules. I also read clearly the LETTER of the rules. I am only speaking of the pre 1962 engine rule...nothing else. Here is my issue. When Thingy M asked about the clarification on the 194 Chevy, as it applied to the pre 62 rule, he was assured not to worry, just build it and come have fun. The rule states pre 62, and nothing else. Since 194s were in production in 1961, to be installed in the 62 model Novas headed for the showrooms in the fall of 61, they are by the letter of the rules pre 62. I know that was not Ryans intent, but the rule wasn't clarified to state engines available in 61 models and earlier. Honestly I don't care about THAT either, except that now Thingy M finds himself excluded from running HA/GR at Eagle Field, because the guy running the event has decided in his own mind how the rule should be applied. I could probably take that, were it not for the fact that the same individual has decided that the newer 200 Ford is legal, based on the fact that it is a derivitive of the pre 62 170 Falcon. Bullshit. All the 62 and earlier Ford 144 and 170 engines had four main bearings...the later 170s and 200s had seven mains, which is a significant change in the engine. Again, I could care less if anyone runs a 200 Ford, but we are seeing, right here in front of us, one guy interpreting the same rule two different ways. (Toymaker, I'm NOT hating on you here, I'm only pointing out that 10 different people could have as many opinions on this rule) This will, (and has) created hard feelings that can be detrimental to the classes continued growth. Another member on this forum told me that when the rules discussions came up another time, that Ryan told him he didn't care if only three cars were ever built, he was fine with the rules as they are. Okay, then. I'm fine with them too. Just watch what's coming, as more cars are built and other builders interperate the engine rules in their own way, and the arguements start all over. It breaks my heart that I've watched this happen again and again over the last 40 years of my involvement in circle track racing, and witnessed the demise of several classes that held so much promise. I have no desire to "second guess the rules". But if that engine rule is not clarified IN PRINT, then you can bet others WILL. Been there, seen it. If I didn't care about this thing, I wouldn't waste my breath, although it seems that is what's happening. I have no interest in "Pushing the Limits of the Rules at Every Opportunity", but again, SOME WILL. It is clear to me that I have annoyed some folks here, but my intent was not to create hard feelings, but rather avoid them down the road. If I have not made my case as clearly as I should have, I apologize for that. I also sincerely hope that "Wayward Wannabe" comment was not directed at me. Anyone who knows me, knows otherwise. My comments and concerns are now officialy ended concerning this matter. Anyone can feel free to send me a private message to further discuss this, If I haven't been clear enough on my position. This subject is heating up the board too much, and I in no way want to be responsible for any more of that. We can agree to disagree, but there are people here I hope to meet someday soon, and I have no desire to make enemies of any of them. Cheers!
Gentlemen, there're more cars coming out here, all with the ability to become proper HA/GR cars even if they had to start off shy of that (as many have). You know, I've been singing this tune for so long now that even I'm tired of hearing me, but it's happening. Not fast, not big by any means, but growing none the less. Hell, we've only been racing'em here barely over two years (April '08), what do you expect? It's now entirely possible (approaching likely) that we'll see an eight car field our third year. Yes others have beat that rate, but in localized groups initially. We're doing it up and down the state, with no centrally located club, group, strip or promoter owning it. Many have helped but no one person or place is the end of it here. Our racing "group" is spread 300 miles apart, running on several strips, and it's growing. Smell the roses kiddies, our foot's in the door and we're doing it. The guy who accepted responsibility for the rules will yet see those rules (and the class) become something bigger than he'd anticipated. Nor will it be the first time for him (seems to be becoming a bit of a habit ). Our rules may still come to need a bit of tinkering (as fairly noted) but I doubt they'll need much. Nor do I see the need immediately, our growth will dictate that necessity in it's own time. We'll weather it folks, we have so far. "Pollyanna" Sappington
Four Banger, Yes we did tell Thingy to come join the fun and that offer still stands, even at Eagle Field. The program at Eagle Field is everyone comes back round after round, win or lose, so anyone running for fun will not be disappointed. With that said there are those who would like to compete for a prize by the rules and do understand how most of us interpret them, they will run for a trophy. I do agree with you on an official decision on allowed engines, but I couldn't get one. If the larger engines from the same family of the 194 never had came up I would not of had to make a decision (something I would of been very happy about) but cars with engines as large as 292's are being built. My decision only applied to Eagle Field, there are those who have went to great lengths to get an engine that was pre-62 when a 62 and later chevy six would have been so easy to come by. A group of young men went so far as to buy a complete pick-up with a 235 to build a car, and I didn't think it was fair to make them compete against a 250 or 292 Chevy six. I also stand by my Ford 6 interpretation, by the way ours is a 4 main 170 just like in 60-61, 200 is about as big as you can get with one of these and a couple more mains bearings isn't going to make them any faster. The engine is also restricted by a horrific intake log, so I don't see them as being a threat. Sure someone could go all Ak Miller on them but that could be done to a pre-62 head. I'll quit rambling now and I do understand your not hating. Peace out, Rocky
Guys, Not to frete.. My car has been shelved, So I can rebuild my Fiat altered. As I cannot afford to work on both cars at the same time. So as far as Eagle field, Or ANRA races are concerned. My car will be at neither one...
Rocky, thanks for understanding where I was coming from. I fretted all day at work, that you might think I was painting you as the villan. No so. My point was that you and I disagree on the letter vs. intent of the same rule. Not only that, I think we partialy disagree with ourselves, in a way! And for the record, I think the 200 Ford is fine. I can personaly attest to the tremendous strength of those little four main 170s. Seven mains or not, it's hard for me to imagine a 200 being any tougher....just a bit more powerfull. You're still spotting anywhere from 25 to 120 cubes to everthing everyone else is using....other than the 194, lol! The four main engines are lighter too, by a fair margin. Given my druthers, I'd rather bore a 170 till I struck water and gain what cubes I could, and take the weight bonus. Your car flies, partialy because it's so light. And it's so light largely because of that little engine. In any case, with the addition of about 10-15 words to the engine rule, we wouldn't be having this conversation now. I'll pm you with my actual idea on the rule. I agree with you 100 percent on not wanting to cause anyone already running a car, to have to compete with the bigger modern style engines. I'm building my chassis to accomodate most any inline engine. I'll use what I have, untill I locate a correct piece I can afford. Be it my 194 Chevy, or my Hemi Four, it certainly won't be setting any class killing et's! LOL! And Old 6...as usual your points and comments are well placed. We're really on the same page...most of us. I just start getting this queasy feeling when opinions begin to differ on a rule. The rule should leave no room for an opinion. Rocky, Dick, and (the other) Dick, thanks for helping smooth out the ripples I started! Best regards!
Four Banger is right I've seen too many classes get ruined because of unclear rules or changes as far as I under reading the rules a 194 is legal and a 200 isn't and a 292 shouldn't even been mentioned. I have seen rule tightened because of things I've done and they couldn't say it was illegal but that's what happens when you win!
Well here goes.. I spent over a year building my supposidly HA/GR, thru two eye surgerys a broken ankle and just being old.(75 next month) And beg barrow and freebies later, I have a running car. With a freebies engine, Which was suppost to be "OK". Well I am now the proud owner a great piece of Wall Art.. Sure I could race in the Open wheel class, But If I wanted to do that, I sure in the Hell wouldn't have built a HA/GR chassis. It would have been a "Slingshot" with a smallblock.. As far as the motors go.. Here is my take on this.. It says Pre 62. So if my 194 isn't legal because it was cast in Feb of 62. Then none of these other motors cast in later years are not legal either..63 to ???? is out. Just because it looks like the earlier version doesn't mean Jack Shit. Well, You guys have fun. Back to work on my Other car... Dick Moseley aka Thingy..
The 200 ford engine family (144,170 & 200) was available as early as 1960, the limitations of these engines are the same with the short deck height, the 250 Ford looks similar but has a taller deck, not legal at EAGLE FIELD. The debate can go on but all I understand is you couldn't order a 194 in your '61 Chevy and I didn't think Thingy would get upset cause he was running for the fun of it anyway, my fault and I owe him an apoligy for that, but how do you tell a 194 from a 250? Rocky
The 194 has a peculiar-to-itself block casting number, since it has smaller bores than the 230-250. That said, I could put a 250 crank right in the 194, and safely bore the cylinders about .125, I think. I haven't done the math, but I'm roughly guessing around 225 cubes with that combination. I dunno, I guess it would be just like at the circle track....if you think the guy's cheating, protest his engine and tear him down. Trouble is, the HA/GR class has no formal protest policy. You know, this is where things start to get so very damn muddy. As strongly as I feel about the 194 being legal, the truth is, it would likely be better if it weren't allowed. As a non stroked, stock crank piece, it won't ruin the class. I personaly believe that the more modern engines wouldn't be a problem, if restricted to stock bore and stroke (plus .060, maybe) and held to around 230 inches. BUT, as you point out, how can you tell, without opening them up and looking, and does this class really need those hassles? I think NOT. Especially if it's just to let in this one engine. I've been researching, and I haven't found another engine put into production for 62, that was actually manufactured in 61, that was anything new and trick. The Ford 240 didn't come along till 63, I think, and the AMC 232 untill 64. The Mopar slant six 170-225 was around before 62, and GM used the stovebolt in everything except the Chevy Two, through 62. Studebaker had an overhead six, but it was an older design. Mopar, GM, Ford, AMC, Studebaker...who am I missing as far as US built stuff? THIS is why I've been bitching and moaning the past few days about the small but very important verbage in the rules. If the engine rule simply said " Engines mass produced for use in 1961 and earlier cars and trucks" vs " Pre 1962" This arguement would have never taken place. I know EXACTLY what Ryan meant when he wrote that rule.....he just didn't write it down correctly. If I could make the call, here is what I'd do. I'd change the wording on that rule. Then I'd grandfather Dick's 194 into the class, since he built it in good faith. As long as his block casting number says it's a 194, there's nothing he can EVER do inside, that would make that engine run any harder than a Mopar 225. Kill it right there. My engine can be used elsewhere, and since I haven't started rebuilding and hopping it up, I'm not gonna get butt-hurt about getting another engine. I'll run it stock here in the et brackets, and I'll find a Jimmy or Stovebolt or SOMETHING by the time I get to come run with all you other west coast guys. Just a thought.
Your right Four Banger, I should of Grandfathered Thingy's 194. I wished I had thought of that! He's not the problem and as I said before I didn't think he would be upset, my bad and it probably cost me a friend Rocky
Devil's advocate observation for both sides ....... Fewer words than that would do it, either way. pre '62 "model year" etc. or pre '62 "availability" etc. The former case would be a matter of record of course. In the latter case, casting numbers and/or other distinctions could be researched. There was certainly some way for a mechanic to tell, otherwise how'd he know to order 194 parts? Also in the latter case, poking & stroking it would be expected of a rodder who salvaged one from a new car wreck late in '61 ('course the head'd still be a problem ).
Id like speak to the rules and engine subject as Im (probably) responsible for this most recent escalation of the engine/rules issue. I nudged the rules because I had a free (clearly out of bounds) engine that I would have liked to run. I didnt think through the real cost of this free engine, which ended up creating some hard feelings. That wasnt my intent. So, before I go any further Id like to apologize to Rocky and Dick (Thingy) for reinvigorating this debate and causing trouble. Rocky is (thankfully) promoting an event that allows us to have fun and (understandably) wants everyone to get along. All he did was try to nudge the outlier (me) back into the HA/GR camp and I thank him for doing it. With that, Id also like to point out that there isnt an HA/GR rules Sheriff patrolling the pits in Bakersfield/Fresno or elsewhere. There are only other like minded nut jobs like me that happen to like this style of fun. In the end its about the fun and camaraderie of being part of the group, its as simple as that. Therefore, Ive also reassessed my commitment to HA/GR and bought a 270 GMC on eBay. The big Chevy came out today and the GMC will be between the rails by next week. The big GMC does score some style points, especially with the 5 carb Howard manifold.
WOW, like this one! Really Skip it's not your fault. I should of called Dick before I went to print, totally my error. Rocky
From our perspective, We loved the idea and look of the cars, lacked the necessary parts, found suitable solutions that were cheap and went with it. Fit the rules? to the letter? nope (but "mostly"). To the letter of the Spirit of the bug? DAMN RIGHT! We're never gonna go to Mokan, or race with any other HA/GR car, so as it pertains to us, the letter of the rules just slowed down the build and made it more expensive. So we improvised, like they would have back in the day. You'll notice our crew is not lobbying for rules changes or any kind of clarification. And we're just happily racing our little dragster that we feel fits the spirit and shows how it was "more or less" done back in the day. More than anybody else we race with within 300 miles, that's for sure. The only thing you can't regulate is deep pockets or people with excessive skill in areas that others might not have. I'm pretty confident we're creeping up on 300 horsepower... And that isn't my doing... I'm the frame guy. how many people have had their head to flow bench shop 10-12 times? We're building a collector for the zoomie so we can get the engine on the dyno. and we've already welded in egt sensor ports on the zoomie and I'm told a nitrous kit has been ordered (I'm against the spray... but I'm not paying for it, so who am I to complain about it's use)? That's our crew, for better or worse. That can't be regulated and is WAY more of a deterrent to the common guy than bickering whether and engine was available in 1962 or 1963. Ron's stuff was REAL intimidating when we started. had we actually had to race with him... we might not have started the build and it wouldn't have been because of the rules. Rules are good if we're all pleasantly flogging our rock stock babbit beaters that are identical so we have an identical opportunity. There is NOT an identical opportunity if it's a heads up class and not ET bracket racing. Want a decent rule? Just ET bracket race instead of heads up. Doesn't technically matter how slow or fast your junk is, and who got what wrong engine or interpreted something differently. If we miraculously go from 20 cars to 400 (and it becomes important), we could implement an ET index rule, like the jr dragster dudes. No muss, no fuss. Wanna build on a budget and race with similar dudes? Run the 15.99 index. wanna hang with the more technical crowd? Move up a few classes and hang with the 11.99 index dudes. and a spec tire would solve a few things, but we'd never all get together on anything like that. Rim sizes, chassis built now around a particular diameter, gear ratios... *UGH*... be a bigger fight than the year debate on blocks. ...lol... Some things can't be solved. And if it takes the fun out of it for others, is it worth solving? really? Pretty painless, big picture.
Wayward Wanabee was not referring to anyone in particular . The rules , who is policing them? Only the guy in the other lane!! Who cares ? It is the concept , not the result that matters . No one is policing these rules except the guys using them. Build your car , worry about the motor afterwards ...change it if the other guys won't race with you.... No I haven't missed your point at all. You stated that you wanted to rewrite the engine rule, you also said you understood Ryan's intent. My point is anybody with a modicum of intelligence can understand the intent. There is no rules referee, so if you build something outside the rules the only difficulty you will have is with yourself, unless the other racers won't race with you!! Prospective builders should consider the whole intent , not just the rules intent , "it's about recreating something from the past rather than pure competition" so there is no real need to be the fastest in order to win, everyone is a winner as soon as they strap in. Someone said "Ya either get it or ya don't" .......... I think it was Ryan , but I ain't about to go checking it out. See this thread from 2006 http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=134420 read the whole thing or skip straight to post 111 and 112. Who really cares , there weren't any rules in 57 ?? Whenever! The guys would bring anything to the race that might work and change it from race to race to get that step ahead, but in those days they couldn't use later model parts!! Like I said I ain't mad at anyone, I think I understand the rules , and the only person enforcing them is the guy in the other lane. If I cheat , I cheat myself, my own integrity. No one else.
NO ROCKY.. You have not lost my friendship..And I was just doing this for the fun of it. BUT, I thought when I ASKED to use this engine( Given to me by friend, Sitting in his garage for 15 years) I was told" It's a 6, And its close enough to the year, Go for it.. So I did, Sure I would like to have the fastest HA/GR out there, But I don't and never will. I have another car that goes plenty fast for me. So my HA/GR is my fun car. The one my wife will let "ME" drive. My only problem with this whole mess is this,, If You thought that the freebies engine was out of date for this class. No one on the HA/GR board should have said Go for it..And I would start looking elsewhere for another motor and all the related parts to go with it..Thats it.. Right now, I'm working on my Fiat altered and trying to get it ready for some races later on. So I wouldn't be able to make Your event or ANRA anyway..
I have been watching all this crap and to me if the powers to be just said " 61 and older motors only, checked by motor / casting numbers" That would stop a lot of this "it looks the same so we can run it" BS. The best thing is come run Open Wheel with ANRA. Just my .02 cents Flame away guys. Butch Headrick www.anra.com
We're close, 97. Let me tell a short story to see if I can put you in my shoes. Several years ago, we started a new stock-based four cylinder class at our local 3/8 mile high banked oval. The tire rule said "Any DOT street legal treaded tire, not to exceed 7 inches in tread width." Okay....I understood the intent, and I also saw the opportunity. I chose to take the high road, and follow the intent. I paid just over two hundred dollars for a set of Cooper Cobra 60 series tires. First race, 5 cars showed up. Four of us had legit street tires....so did the fifth guy. A set of Hoosier Sportsman DOT legal tires. His cost about eighty five dollars each, and would last about four races. I will never forget all five of us getting the green flag, and hauling ass around 90 mph into the high banks of turn one, and watching that guy pass us all before we hit the apex. By the letter of the rule, he was legal. So, every one else got to go spend big bucks on the "racey" street tires. The intent of the long wearing street tires went by the wayside, because the track promoter made an error in the verbage of the rule, and refused to correct it. I comletely lost my shit, probably because about 5 years previous, I had built a Street Stock, absolutely to not only the letter, but the intent of the rules. Word got out that my "Class Killer" (a 390 powered Gremlin) was on the way, and several racers whinned to the SAME track promoter, and he changed (actually inserted where none existed before) the wheelbase rule to 108 inches, and my unfinished car was useless. So, perhaps I'm overly sensitive, but I've been BONED before by this same situation. My point was this. Yeah, you, me , most everyone see and understand the intent of the HA/GR engine rule. And you're right, if I operate outside of that intent, I may be cheating myself and my integrity. But even though I take the high road, there will be one guy who won't. He is seeking the advantage that every racer seeks....and if he finds it, he has the upper hand. Now, I don't have to win all the time, or ever, as long as I'm having a good time and I know we all are playing with the same set of rules. The ONLY reason I brought this up, was the fact that a problem was/is brewing, and I figured stop it BEFORE it festers into a bunch of hard feelings.
If we ever get to meet each other I'll be happy as hell, let alone if we get to race each other , I live 8000 miles away from Boise across the ocean on a South Pacific island paradise. If someone doesn't play fair just put him in Coventry, tell him once, then if he doesn't want to play ball, ignore him , don't even acknowledge him until he agrees enter the spirit of the thing. ...... As I said, ya just don't race the guy, let him go.. race amongst yourselves, he will get the picture sooner or later, in the meantime you are havin fun with the others.( It's the circle track thing I am talking about here), I just don't think anybody with an HA/GR will be that concerned or that competitive....maybe I am wrong. As I understand it The HA/GR-ANRA racing deal has no exclusive HA/GR class anyway , it's only by manipulation of the staging lanes that the Cali guys race each other anyway , and everybody gets along fine.... the way it should be.
Four Banger promoters are the racers worst enemy, one changed the rules to increase car count so that cars from a track 4hrs away could race we already had a 4 track circuit going so we adapted the new rule and ended up running faster than the headline class with lesser motors at the end of the season the 4 tracks dropped our late model class
LOL! Jeff, we could swap promotor horror stories for days! Luckily, we have a great one here at our one remaining oval track in the Boise, Valley. Everyone is having fun again, and the car counts are increasing steadily, and quickly. We also only have one good drag strip here, and another 120 miles away, an eighth mile. The track owner is a bit of an ass, and knows he has the upper hand and loves to show it whenever possible. His staff are a good bunch though, and the track is very nice. I know what you mean, though. It seems as if they're out to get us all, at times. lol!
Believe me guys when I say, Racerb (Butch) is one of the best promoter guys in the business. YES,,, He is for the racer.
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